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On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though.
When I was playing Top Master (as Zerg) some months ago, as I'm not playing currently, these multipronged attack were already hard enough to pull of without Roach Borrow and Overlord drops. If you add these two on top of that and you have to constantly produce units, send them to the right locations, fill up overlords, drop the units at the right places at the right time, while attacking two other bases BUT still watching all of your armies so you don't lose them for nothing... and then you hold that pressure up for 10mins WHILE expanding constantly as well as preparing a Muta switch. Then yes, that is fucking hard to do. And Leenock executed it wonderfully.
Few Zergs are successful with Overlord Drop play because Blink Stalkers can shut it down so easily that from one moment to the next you're suddenly out of options to do any further damage. And because of your tech path you're then basically dead as the Protoss just builds up his Stalker, Immortal and Sentry ball and demolishes you.
But Leenock put on pressure constantly and microed well enough to always do damage, especially to the economy. So Squirtle just barely wasn't able to stabilize.
That IS great play by the Zerg. And no it's far from easy, no matter how biased your view is.
But oh wait, you said you played Protoss AND Zerg and you aren't actually biased.
Well darn, http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2017526/1/FlyingTurtle/ , Platinum!
I don't think you're league level matters much when arguing. But when you make claims that XYZ is easy to execute you better have something to back it up. And when I was struggling hard as a top Master player executing pushes like the one of Leenock and a Platinum player tells me that what HIS main race does is super hard and the Zerg push easy, yeah, fuck that.
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On November 24 2012 18:24 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. " lol leenock clearly played 50x better he has to perfect macro injects multitask all over the place snipe sentries/immortals with roaches all squirtle did was spam f click". If you try hard enough you can make anything sound easy or difficult. You haven't provided an argument, merely stated an opinion, in a clearly biased way (apparently literally the only thing Leenock did all game was a-move three control groups?).
Completely untrue. You're bringing macro mechanics into the picture, when the argument was simply on army control (red herring much?) Also, unlike a-move, forcefields have to be precise; one square off and you don't trap anything. My argument was that Abyssal City creates a situation in which the Zerg merely has to mange 3 control groups of units while the Protoss has to deal with three attack fronts with an army incredibly difficult to control when split. Where's your argument? Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you simply bash and throw in logical fallacies.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Game 8 Summary
Squirtle Lucky
Uhm, basically it goes into the lategame and Lucky has your typical Infestor BL army, but Squirtle is secretly amassing a Carrier Voidray army. Lucky has 20+ Infestors and 20 BLs, but when he sees the Carrier army he starts building more Infestors, but no corruptors. Lucky repeatedly tries to force Squirtle into an engagement with fungals and ITs but there are too many carriers. 5 bases for each player. Squirtle flies across the map and Lucky has 30something Infestors. They fight near Lucky's base at the top, but Lucky refuses to use neural and tries to defeat Squirtle's max Carrier Voidray army with fungals and IT only. Tons of useless supply in BL and Lucky runs out of energy. GG.
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On November 24 2012 18:29 lichter wrote:
Game 7 Summary
Bomber <Grand Lagoon> Lucky
Bomber at the bottom and Lucky up top. Bomber goes for 1rax CC and Lucky a hatch first. Lucky gets an early gas while Bomber is teching up to a factory for reactored hellions, but Lucky puts down the roach warren. 10 roaches from Lucky heading towards Bomber's base along with some slow lings. Bomber is building too many addons and only has one marauder. He reacts slowly and lets the roaches onto his ramp, which block the SCVs trying to get back into the main, and Bomber is slow to repair the depot wall. It falls, and SCVs die. GG.
This is literally how Bomber dies in half of the TvZs he loses.
The other half of his TvZs, he walks his army randomly out onto creep, unsieges everything at once, and gets rolled.
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On November 24 2012 18:31 FlyingTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:24 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. " lol leenock clearly played 50x better he has to perfect macro injects multitask all over the place snipe sentries/immortals with roaches all squirtle did was spam f click". If you try hard enough you can make anything sound easy or difficult. You haven't provided an argument, merely stated an opinion, in a clearly biased way (apparently literally the only thing Leenock did all game was a-move three control groups?). Completely untrue. You're bringing macro mechanics into the picture, when the argument was simply on army control (red herring much?) Also, unlike a-move, forcefields have to be precise; one square off and you don't trap anything. My argument was that Abyssal City creates a situation in which the Zerg merely has to mange 3 control groups of units while the Protoss has to deal with three attack fronts with an army incredibly difficult to control when split. Where's your argument? Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you simply bash and throw in logical fallacies.
The thing is, it's always harder to defend. That goes for any matchup. I.E. It takes way more effort to deal with a terran drop as a zerg than it is for terran to drop.
This is just not a ZvP thing. Defenders will always have a harder time but it's also more rewarding if you successfully hold it.
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On November 24 2012 18:30 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. When I was playing Top Master (as Zerg) some months ago, as I'm not playing currently, these multipronged attack were already hard enough to pull of without Roach Borrow and Overlord drops. If you add these two on top of that and you have to constantly produce units, send them to the right locations, fill up overlords, drop the units at the right places at the right time, while attacking two other bases BUT still watching all of your armies so you don't lose them for nothing... and then you hold that pressure up for 10mins WHILE expanding constantly as well as preparing a Muta switch. Then yes, that is fucking hard to do. And Leenock executed it wonderfully. Few Zergs are successful with Overlord Drop play because Blink Stalkers can shut it down so easily that from one moment to the next you're suddenly out of options to do any further damage. And because of your tech path you're then basically dead as the Protoss just builds up his Stalker, Immortal and Sentry ball and demolishes you. But Leenock put on pressure constantly and microed well enough to always do damage, especially to the economy. So Squirtle just barely wasn't able to stabilize. That IS great play by the Zerg. And no it's far from easy, no matter how biased your view is. But oh wait, you said you played Protoss AND Zerg and you aren't actually biased. Well darn, http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2017526/1/FlyingTurtle/, Platinum! I don't think you're league level matters much when arguing. But when you make claims that XYZ is easy to execute you better have something to back it up. And when I was struggling hard as a top Master player executing pushes like the one of Leenock and a Platinum player tells me that what HIS main race does is super hard and the Zerg push easy, yeah, fuck that.
If it doesn't matter, why bring it up? Masters or Platinum makes no difference; Squirtle and Leenock would crush either of us with little to no difficulty. Struggling hard? You're a casual gamer. So am I. Neither one of us has put in a dime compared to what these players do.
EDIT: I also never said Leenock's play was easy; I only said that it was far easier than what the Protoss has to do. Ok, I exaggerated with the a-move comparison, but it doesn't change the facts. You CANNOT use forcefields without actually looking at that part of the map while burrow and drop can be managed with minimap clicks and hotkey groups. On most maps, the defense comes at the high reward you mentioned- denying the zerg his damage after investing so much on drop/speed/burrow- but on this map, that reward doesn't exist because there is no way with the unique addition of the open third to stabilize with constant pressure on the third with alternating roach and ling waves.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Game 9 Summary
Squirtle Leenock
Uhhhh, roach and ling drops in Squirtle's main kill tons of probes. Squirtle trying to turtle on three bases, but Leenock will have none of it. He switches between Ling/Roach drops and Mutas to attack everywhere, and is pulling Squirtle's army all over the place. Squirtle loses 40 probes and is 100 supply down and has to GG. FXO win the series.
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On November 24 2012 18:34 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:31 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:24 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. " lol leenock clearly played 50x better he has to perfect macro injects multitask all over the place snipe sentries/immortals with roaches all squirtle did was spam f click". If you try hard enough you can make anything sound easy or difficult. You haven't provided an argument, merely stated an opinion, in a clearly biased way (apparently literally the only thing Leenock did all game was a-move three control groups?). Completely untrue. You're bringing macro mechanics into the picture, when the argument was simply on army control (red herring much?) Also, unlike a-move, forcefields have to be precise; one square off and you don't trap anything. My argument was that Abyssal City creates a situation in which the Zerg merely has to mange 3 control groups of units while the Protoss has to deal with three attack fronts with an army incredibly difficult to control when split. Where's your argument? Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you simply bash and throw in logical fallacies. The thing is, it's always harder to defend. That goes for any matchup. I.E. It takes way more effort to deal with a terran drop as a zerg than it is for terran to drop. This is just not a ZvP thing. Defenders will always have a harder time but it's also more rewarding if you successfully hold it.
The problem is, the role of defender is especially hard on this map, nearly to the point of being impossible.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:34 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:31 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:24 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. " lol leenock clearly played 50x better he has to perfect macro injects multitask all over the place snipe sentries/immortals with roaches all squirtle did was spam f click". If you try hard enough you can make anything sound easy or difficult. You haven't provided an argument, merely stated an opinion, in a clearly biased way (apparently literally the only thing Leenock did all game was a-move three control groups?). Completely untrue. You're bringing macro mechanics into the picture, when the argument was simply on army control (red herring much?) Also, unlike a-move, forcefields have to be precise; one square off and you don't trap anything. My argument was that Abyssal City creates a situation in which the Zerg merely has to mange 3 control groups of units while the Protoss has to deal with three attack fronts with an army incredibly difficult to control when split. Where's your argument? Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you simply bash and throw in logical fallacies. The thing is, it's always harder to defend. That goes for any matchup. I.E. It takes way more effort to deal with a terran drop as a zerg than it is for terran to drop. This is just not a ZvP thing. Defenders will always have a harder time but it's also more rewarding if you successfully hold it.
I'm pretty sure it's easier to defend than attack, no? When you see the drop coming, just a-click 30 lings over. Pretty sure it's less APM to defend than attack most of the time, especially since your screen is on your base, so macro is also easier
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On November 24 2012 18:25 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:12 Ruscour wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FXOpen wrote:
I'm unable to listen to the interview, can someone give me the dot points of what Leenock and Choya said? Seconding this, it was lagging like hell. No I mean I'm literally not able to listen to it  I'm (marc) running a Dota2 LAN at the moment, so I've been trying to squeeze in watching this as much as possible haha
Was mostly the usual things. The thing that stood out was that Choya wanted to prove MVP wrong when they said FXO is easy. That they don't have the strongest players in the individual league but is still a fearsome team in the teamleague.
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@ FlyingTurtle
What kind of argument is that? You're not even getting to the point of my reply.
I was explaining a bit more in detail, because you demanded it, why your notion of "Zerg push easy, Protoss defense hard" is rather ridiculous, especially in regards to this game.
And now you tell me I don't compare to top pro gamers? Well no shit. But I also don't claim something is easy as shit when I cannot even dream about executing any of it. Which you do.
Here's a reminder:
Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Poll: Recommend Game 7?No (6) 75% Yes (2) 25% 8 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Recommend Game 8?Yes (11) 85% No (2) 15% 13 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 8? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Recommend Game 9?Yes (14) 93% No (1) 7% 15 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 9? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On November 24 2012 18:31 FlyingTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:24 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:20 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:14 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:09 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:08 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:On November 24 2012 18:07 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:05 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:02 Fred Flintstone wrote:
so hard for protoss, so eazy for zerg.. Yeah, Leenock clearly isn't skilled at all and just effortlessly a-moved around the map. Oh wait, that's totally not true. My bad. Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time. Well if you say so, it must be true. Good counterargument. Can I get lessons from your school of rhetoric, o wise one? -_- What the hell is there even to argue about that incredible biased view? "A Zerg attack like that is super easy, and the defense by the Protoss super hard. Period." No shit I'm not gonna write an actual argument in response, because all hope is clearly lost. No, you're not going to write an argument in response because you can't think of one. Also, from my point of view (shared by many in the comments), your response is the biased one. The objective evaluation is that Abyssal City is an incredibly difficult map for PvZ. Nice try, though. " lol leenock clearly played 50x better he has to perfect macro injects multitask all over the place snipe sentries/immortals with roaches all squirtle did was spam f click". If you try hard enough you can make anything sound easy or difficult. You haven't provided an argument, merely stated an opinion, in a clearly biased way (apparently literally the only thing Leenock did all game was a-move three control groups?). Completely untrue. You're bringing macro mechanics into the picture, when the argument was simply on army control (red herring much?) Also, unlike a-move, forcefields have to be precise; one square off and you don't trap anything. My argument was that Abyssal City creates a situation in which the Zerg merely has to mange 3 control groups of units while the Protoss has to deal with three attack fronts with an army incredibly difficult to control when split. Where's your argument? Oh, that's right, you don't have one, you simply bash and throw in logical fallacies.
You said that Leenock's play did not require any real skill. That's how this whole train wreck of a conversation started, with someone saying that it was really easy for Zerg to do that and you defending them by claiming that, when you get down to it, all Leenock really did was a-move. This is simply untrue. Do you really think that what he did wasn't skillful? That any random Zerg player could beat Squirtle with that strategy, just by a-moving stuff around the map? Any zerg who wasn't code S champion quality (Leenock may not have won a code S, but he's at that general skill level) would have lost that game, or at least wouldn't have won it as convincingly as Leenock did.
Yes, Abyssal is an imbalanced map. That does not mean that what Leenock did is easy. It means that what Leenock did was imbalanced, on that map. Imbalanced =/= easy and easy =/= imbalanced.
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Germany7979 Posts
wow startale has one of the strongest sc2 lineups to date imo, really surprised they didnt make the finals this season
gonna watch the vods soon, cant believe life lost to gumiho lol
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:38 Tsubbi wrote:
wow startale has one of the strongest sc2 lineups to date imo, really surprised they didnt make the finals this season
gonna watch the vods soon, cant believe life lost to gumiho lol
It was a great game by Gumiho
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On November 24 2012 18:37 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:@ FlyingTurtle What kind of argument is that? You're not even getting to the point of my reply. I was explaining a bit more in detail, because you demanded it, why your notion of "Zerg push easy, Protoss defense hard" is rather ridiculous, especially in regards to this game. And now you tell me I don't compare to top pro gamers? Well no shit. But I also don't claim something is easy as shit when I cannot even dream about executing any of it. Which you do. Here's a reminder: Show nested quote +
Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time.
Oh, great. Ignore what I said about making the job harder. Ignore everything but the exaggerated first phrase I used to draw your attention. Yes, there's no way for even a masters player to execute what Leenock did, but this isn't about the masters player. This is about the 300-apm pro gamer, for whom minimap and control group management is far easier than having to constantly move between three areas on your main screen. Did I say it was easy as a-move? No, I said that the roach drop was to Leenock what a-move is to the average casual gamer. Maybe I didn't explain that in full detail, but you jumped at one thing I said and took that as my entire argument.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:47 FlyingTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:37 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:@ FlyingTurtle What kind of argument is that? You're not even getting to the point of my reply. I was explaining a bit more in detail, because you demanded it, why your notion of "Zerg push easy, Protoss defense hard" is rather ridiculous, especially in regards to this game. And now you tell me I don't compare to top pro gamers? Well no shit. But I also don't claim something is easy as shit when I cannot even dream about executing any of it. Which you do. Here's a reminder:
Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time.
Oh, great. Ignore what I said about making the job harder. Ignore everything but the exaggerated first phrase I used to draw your attention. Yes, there's no way for even a masters player to execute what Leenock did, but this isn't about the masters player. This is about the 300-apm pro gamer, for whom minimap and control group management is far easier than having to constantly move between three areas on your main screen. Did I say it was easy as a-move? No, I said that the roach drop was to Leenock what a-move is to the average casual gamer. Maybe I didn't explain that in full detail, but you jumped at one thing I said and took that as my entire argument.
I don't think anyone not on top-tier zerg level could have executed that as well as leenock. You don't see players like horror or zenio winning like this.
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On November 24 2012 18:48 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:47 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 24 2012 18:37 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:@ FlyingTurtle What kind of argument is that? You're not even getting to the point of my reply. I was explaining a bit more in detail, because you demanded it, why your notion of "Zerg push easy, Protoss defense hard" is rather ridiculous, especially in regards to this game. And now you tell me I don't compare to top pro gamers? Well no shit. But I also don't claim something is easy as shit when I cannot even dream about executing any of it. Which you do. Here's a reminder:
Actually, that's pretty much what he did. Granted, adding overlord drop and 3 hotkey groups makes the job harder, but that was nothing compared to the vigilance Squirtle needed to have just the right blinks, guardian shields, and FFs at the right place and the right time.
Oh, great. Ignore what I said about making the job harder. Ignore everything but the exaggerated first phrase I used to draw your attention. Yes, there's no way for even a masters player to execute what Leenock did, but this isn't about the masters player. This is about the 300-apm pro gamer, for whom minimap and control group management is far easier than having to constantly move between three areas on your main screen. Did I say it was easy as a-move? No, I said that the roach drop was to Leenock what a-move is to the average casual gamer. Maybe I didn't explain that in full detail, but you jumped at one thing I said and took that as my entire argument. I don't think anyone not on top-tier zerg level could have executed that as well as leenock. You don't see players like horror or zenio winning like this.
It's not because they don't have the skills; it's because they can't recognize the right time and map to do it on. What you're saying once applied to Broodlord/Infestor; lesser zergs knew about it but didn't recognize its strength until a few high-profile games brought it to prominence. And yes, that was an incredible execution by Leenock, but even, say, horror could have done a somewhat inferior but still passable version of the same drop.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
The map is only 4-6 in favour PvZ, and by all accounts the game was highly entertaining, the guy who won is in far better form than the looser, why are people complaining? I'd much prefer to have maps like that which encourage aggression from zerg on Lair tech rather than just turtle.
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On November 24 2012 18:54 MCDayC wrote:
The map is only 4-6 in favour PvZ, and by all accounts the game was highly entertaining, the guy who won is in far better form than the looser, why are people complaining? I'd much prefer to have maps like that which encourage aggression from zerg on Lair tech rather than just turtle.
The winner was far better? I don't know which game you were watching, but Squirtle's defense was also amazing. Throughout all of that, he managed to keep his probe count above 40 at all times and his army above 90 supply (at least until the very end).
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EPT
