Destiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 52
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:00 DerNebel wrote: Well, Wings of Liberty did explode the scene, at least in the west. At least in the west. That sounds a bit hollow doesn't it? The largest Brood War tournaments could fill entire football stadiums, and here we have MLG struggling to make money about the "successor" that was supposed to explode the scene. A ton of A-teamers in BW had their own, dedicated fanclub that turned up live, stress that word, live to cheer for their favorite progamers. If you hung around since the early beta days you may remember the BW coverage always being covered in fangirl screams when huge plays happened. This was the spirit, a football stadium's worth of people watching Brood War live, and at the forefront the most dedicated fans, cheering for their fans with extreme hyperbole. Starcraft 2 does have these things, don't get me wrong here, but the scale is so minute, so tiny that it's simply insignificant. That Starcraft 2 is less played in PC bangs in Korea than Brood War, that it isn't even in top 10 is way more significant than you might think if you don't know Korean gaming culture. The PC bang, the net café, is very important in Korea, it is the place eSports started. In the wild early years of Brood War, it was people playing in the PC bangs all over the nation that sparked the first tournaments, hosted in PC bangs, that led to the first, terrible, unhealthy gaming houses, which eventually led to the OSLs and the nationwide eSport. I am not sure how many people go play there today, but I would guess that the number is still quite big, and it is in places like these that eSports are born. Not in a lab, concocted with equal parts artificial skill ceiling and spectator appeal, but through people playing a good game and then going on to playing tournaments in it. RIOT showed us that you can kick your game forward, you can make an eSport out of the really fun game you've made. Everybody has heard of the huge viewerships at League of Legends tournaments, but few remember the baby steps they took when the game was relatively small, like the travesty of the lorebased showmatch, an agony to watch so don't do it. RIOT and Valve have two amazingly fun games, and they both organize amazing tournaments for them, with RIOT taking the reins far more than Valve, but both promoting the game as a really fun game to play and to watch. Blizzard tried to explicitly make an eSports game. That was a mistake. I am not going to make any concessions here, making Starcraft 2 a "competitive" experience was a mistake. They forgot everything most people really find fun about gaming: community. Community, communication, playing stupid shit with friends, if you want it in english. 1v1, online, versus strangers is just not fun in the long haul for the vast majority of players. LoL kept its players coming back and DOTA has loads of 6+ year veterans plus swathes of new players coming in, while Starcraft 2 is facing lower and lower ladder numbers by the season. Its just not fun enough, that's my point. Blizzard needs to make the game more fun, they need to be brilliant, to simultaneously cater to the casual and the hardcore. If they keep up the hamfisted approach to game design, map design and balance they have had until now, then I predict a lot of disillusioned posts on the front page about an heir that failed its heritage when the third expansion comes out. And I'm not talking about DOTA2. What a superb post. I don't think I can add anything to it. Summed it up nicely. | ||
Fake)Plants
United States373 Posts
On October 18 2012 06:06 Bleak wrote: Exactly why I stopped playing too. The game is just too stressful, in order to get good you need to practice in a specific way and if you don't have access (or time) for that kind of practice, you get frustrated. It also does not reward the player enough to keep playing. I just switched to Dota 2 and I don't miss SC2 at all. It is much more fun and much less stressful than SC2. The last MLG I watched was the one with JD/Flash etc. and it was also the last tournement I watched. The International 2 though was just super exciting. Agree with everything here and in Destiny's original post. I am truly confused as to how Blizzard can continue to ignore the problems that have been plaguing SC2 since its release, specifically the Battle.net experience. Honestly, if Blizzard was more willing to listen to input SC2 would be much, much better off and far less mired in a bunch of stagnation. Diablo III is an even better example of their current capabilities as a developer. | ||
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On October 17 2012 22:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Since this is such a long post, it's only normal to disagree with a couple points. Overall I think it is well written and hits on a lot of important points. However, I don't agree with the underlying thought that StarCraft as an esport doesn't have any hope without Blizzard stepping it up. There are more than enough opportunities to grow this thing. The current prize money level represents that of a very serious sport. We need to be making some strides in better payout structures, and rewarding more spots, but in the grand scheme of things, we are in a decent place. There is enough prize money to keep developing this scene. It's always good to improve payouts, but it's not something that keeps this from being a successful sport. I also don't agree with the part about casual versus competitive features. If you look at LoL and Dota the casuals aren't necessarily buying more skins than the competitive gamers. Skins itself are not a casual feature, and can be applied successfully in a competitive, as well as a casual game. Dota uses a top-down approach where they start with competitive play and expect this to trickle down. I think the success of BroodWar in Korea relied on competitive play first, casual play second. There are even the success stories of mods such as Dota1 and Counter-Strike, where accessibility was not the primary concern. The reason these games succeeded is off of competitive play. Presenting features for casual players in a clear and easy to use manner is very important, however you don't need to go so far as to say your focus needs to be on those. Just take care of casual players properly and find the right balance. In order to be a successful esport, there is no need at all to put casuals first. Asking game developers to put casuals first is a step in the wrong direction, asking them to take care of casuals properly is what we need from them. It is undeniable that Blizzard has a lot of things they could be doing that would make things better for us. Issues with buying multiple accounts for each server, all the server switching, the poor latencies between the servers, skins, logo integration, name changes. It doesn't matter that I disagree with a couple points Destiny makes, the fact that this post exists is a good thing. Excellent Nazgul, agreed! | ||
EnNaNo
United States2 Posts
SC2 viewers will get interest from SC2 FANS.. simply put. Whenever there's a tournament/event on stream you wont see your big SC2 fanboys going and saying "Hey LoL has more viewers currently, I think I'll watch that instead." Being that this discussion really is all about who's opinion is louder I will end my post with this... You CANNOT predict that HotS will suck just as you cannot predict it any other game will suck based upon the simple fact that this game is not DONE YET. So long as SC2 is backed by the community it will not be dead anytime soon, unless someone makes a better RTS(good luck) you can expect to see Starcraft around for quite a while. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On October 18 2012 06:59 Serpico wrote: Really amazing support from valve, especially since the game will be f2p. They aren't messing around here. Poll: Has Valve advanced E-Sports with DOTA 2? Yes (47) No (13) 60 total votes Your vote: Has Valve advanced E-Sports with DOTA 2? | ||
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On October 18 2012 06:40 Areon wrote: Some amazingly valid and powerful points. A little too ranty at times, but this is something that needs to be read by a lot of people. Don't agree with his QQ about competitive games not being fun; competitive games can be absolutely fun, just depends on the player and the game. The thing is that the "competitive game" is a very vague term. Pretty much every multiplayer-oriented game that's not an MMO is a competitive game (and then some MMOs on top of that as well). The thing is, there needs to be a non-competitive element to the game that's good, fun and addictive. The game I burned the most time on over the last 2 months was Tribes: Ascend - and very recently, Chivalry. Both games I can play while barely thinking or giving a shit about what's really going on and get a kick out of it. Which is exactly what I want to be able to do when I feel tired and lazy. | ||
Xandaren
United States93 Posts
I am talking about that random poll, just to clarify. | ||
Jealous
10145 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:00 DerNebel wrote: Well, Wings of Liberty did explode the scene, at least in the west. At least in the west. That sounds a bit hollow doesn't it? The largest Brood War tournaments could fill entire football stadiums, and here we have MLG struggling to make money about the "successor" that was supposed to explode the scene. A ton of A-teamers in BW had their own, dedicated fanclub that turned up live, stress that word, live to cheer for their favorite progamers. If you hung around since the early beta days you may remember the BW coverage always being covered in fangirl screams when huge plays happened. This was the spirit, a football stadium's worth of people watching Brood War live, and at the forefront the most dedicated fans, cheering for their fans with extreme hyperbole. Starcraft 2 does have these things, don't get me wrong here, but the scale is so minute, so tiny that it's simply insignificant. That Starcraft 2 is less played in PC bangs in Korea than Brood War, that it isn't even in top 10 is way more significant than you might think if you don't know Korean gaming culture. The PC bang, the net café, is very important in Korea, it is the place eSports started. In the wild early years of Brood War, it was people playing in the PC bangs all over the nation that sparked the first tournaments, hosted in PC bangs, that led to the first, terrible, unhealthy gaming houses, which eventually led to the OSLs and the nationwide eSport. I am not sure how many people go play there today, but I would guess that the number is still quite big, and it is in places like these that eSports are born. Not in a lab, concocted with equal parts artificial skill ceiling and spectator appeal, but through people playing a good game and then going on to playing tournaments in it. RIOT showed us that you can kick your game forward, you can make an eSport out of the really fun game you've made. Everybody has heard of the huge viewerships at League of Legends tournaments, but few remember the baby steps they took when the game was relatively small, like the travesty of the lorebased showmatch, an agony to watch so don't do it. RIOT and Valve have two amazingly fun games, and they both organize amazing tournaments for them, with RIOT taking the reins far more than Valve, but both promoting the game as a really fun game to play and to watch. Blizzard tried to explicitly make an eSports game. That was a mistake. I am not going to make any concessions here, making Starcraft 2 a "competitive" experience was a mistake. They forgot everything most people really find fun about gaming: community. Community, communication, playing stupid shit with friends, if you want it in english. 1v1, online, versus strangers is just not fun in the long haul for the vast majority of players. LoL kept its players coming back and DOTA has loads of 6+ year veterans plus swathes of new players coming in, while Starcraft 2 is facing lower and lower ladder numbers by the season. Its just not fun enough, that's my point. Blizzard needs to make the game more fun, they need to be brilliant, to simultaneously cater to the casual and the hardcore. If they keep up the hamfisted approach to game design, map design and balance they have had until now, then I predict a lot of disillusioned posts on the front page about an heir that failed its heritage when the third expansion comes out. And I'm not talking about DOTA2. Best post in this thread. Thank you, and cheers. | ||
BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
The sc2 dished alot, i mean, ALOT of amazing features from scbw for unknown reason. I am a zerg and i will never forgive them for replacing the super cool Hydra with Roach in sc2 and it was fine for me if hydra wasn't crippled into a trash unit (you have to forgive my language but i hope my anger is understandable). And then we all know there are alot of in-game design issues of all 3 races in sc2. Similar thing happened to D3 (I know it is technically made by different people but it is from blizzard), the D3 team said openly that they dislike many things in D2 and they will 'improve' the game in D3. What on earth are these people thinking i don't even. Without scbw, sc2 is nothing. I am not buying HotS. Do you see that i have the zerg icon and my signature? I will never change my race on TL and this signature will stay forever because I still love SC1 as a game to death. | ||
HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
Anyway, I think there are quite a few things Blizzard could do to make their product more friendly to the casual gamer, to tournaments, to custom games, to a lot of things. Unfortunately, I think that they are going to need a change in vision for the product as a whole, and I'm not sure they are going to get there without some drastic changes to ... something ... maybe staffing. | ||
elanobissen
Denmark244 Posts
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:15 elanobissen wrote: Just remove collosus, forcefields, infestor, BL, Roaches(buff hydras ffs) and swarmhost, and we are good to go. Might aswell bring back the real firebat while we are at it. That would make for an actually nice game. Not removing any Terran units, thats not biased at all. | ||
hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:15 elanobissen wrote: Just remove collosus, forcefields, infestor, BL, Roaches(buff hydras ffs) and swarmhost, and we are good to go. Might aswell bring back the real firebat while we are at it. That would make for an actually nice game. Nothing wrong with the broodlord if infestor is fixed/removed. | ||
ishyishy
United States826 Posts
WoW is the most casual game I have ever played in my life. Yes there are ways to compete, yes there are ways to challenge yourself and get rewarded for it, but it is so easy to just enjoy the game while not doing those things that it doesnt matter. You play the game how you want. (after 8 years, however, the game gets beyond boring so I am no longer playing, but I enjoyed the time I spent on it and I definitely didnt expect to get 8 years out of 1 game). I played Diablo 3 when it released. It was fun for 2 weeks. Then I put it away and never looked at it again lol. It's a pretty bad game overall, but a casual one nontheless. What I would really like to see are some facts, and some numbers. Again, I agree with Destiny's opinions, but if sc2 is "dying". then numbers would prove it. I want to see 3 numbers: 1. Number of players ( or accounts created) on official release. 2. Number of active accounts (accounts that show activity at least once a week) from release until the end of 2011. 3. Number of active accounts from the end of 2011 to present day. If someone can get this information and put it in a very simple graph, you will see whether or not the game is dying or growing. If its growing, you line graph will show an upward trend in active accounts, if it is dying, a downward trend. You dont have to go through all of this speculative nonsense and opinionated experiences. Numbers never lie. -------------- Shifting the mood from facts to opinions: I, personally, am slowly losing interest in sc2 in general. I'm not going to say the game is bad, or that it *needs* X amount of features to be a real game, or anything of the sort. I enjoy watching MLG and GSL tournaments for sure. I just do not enjoy playing the game anymore. It's that simple. I'm not afraid of the fucking ladder queue button, I'm not worried about achievements or ranking points or league icons or any of that shit; I dont care. The gameplay does not appeal to me anymore; it is getting boring. I'm not sure exactly why, but maybe the thing about "not working towards or building towards something" that Destiny was saying might have something to do with it. --------- I have (unfortunately lol) moved on to LoL for now. The game is similar in that micro is very important, and timings, and mechanics, so it isnt like it's a brand new never before seen omg shiney game, and I can jump into it and not be completely lost. I just find it more enjoyable overall. Also, I dont care what you diehard LoL assholes think, LoL is an EASIER game than sc2, there I said it. It is easier, and less stressful, and features in the game give it at least a little bit of value or meaning. Maybe that is why I (and whoever else made the switch) am enjoying it more. I am still watching the GSL and all of the other tournaments (except the PPV, i already pay for GSL i cant pay for everything else too), but as for playing the game, I'm pretty much done. | ||
sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
Comparing with LoL, Dota2, and especially, especially, BW. It's not by rehashing something successful in the past that it will be successful now. It's not by mimicking BW's bnet system or mimicking LoL's promotion and free-to-play-ness and accessibility that SC2 will live. I think that Blizzard needs to be original. Nothing they do is original anymore. They half-heartedly copied a third of BW in SC2 and then the community is asking Blizzard to mimic other games from other game companies. I'm 100% sure that the results won't mimic along. Blizzard needs to come up with something completely unseen and new. Make SC2 special. Give people a reason to play SC2 because it's in innovation, not a rehash that stinks like nostalgia. Stop comparing. We need something completely outside of the box. | ||
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
I play SC2 every day and love it. I watch it every day and love it. I would never want its hardcore and competitive nature replaced by some casual BS. Sure, increasing the accessibility of custom games and chat rooms will help marginally. Ultimately though, the RTS genre does not lend it itself to casual players. And that's how I like it ![]() | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:30 Doodsmack wrote: Reading this thread you would think no one in this community actually likes SC2. We are all here because we deeply love SC2. Apathy and silence would be the sign of dislike. | ||
ScoutWBF
Germany601 Posts
On October 18 2012 07:32 Archerofaiur wrote: We are all here because we deeply love SC2. Apathy and silence would be the sign of dislike. Actually, I don't like SC2 at all.I was following the korean SC2 scene to see if the game would improve over time, but it only got more boring as time passed by. | ||
ImperialX
Australia4 Posts
People need skill to appreciate SC2 for the game that it is - and most people nowadays don't want to put in effort like that. That's why SC2 will never be as big - it's not a game for no0bs. | ||
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