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[A] Starbow - Page 455

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
October 28 2013 23:49 GMT
#9081
Yes. Bring him on
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
October 29 2013 00:02 GMT
#9082
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
October 29 2013 00:10 GMT
#9083
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 16:50:04
October 29 2013 16:47 GMT
#9084
--- Nuked ---
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
October 29 2013 17:37 GMT
#9085
Anyone play tonight?
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
October 29 2013 18:10 GMT
#9086
@ Laertes ideas.

I think we should focus on balancing macro mechanics and finishing some of the less used units atm. And no, Starbow is not 1.0 according to what Kabel has said recently. I also think we should work on the units we got instead of adding new ones to try and balance everything around.

New stuff atm should rather be: Spells for Ghost? Ability for Devour? Etc...

I'll cast later tonight if anyone is playing.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
October 29 2013 18:14 GMT
#9087
Sorry for not commenting on your units, but they are too random for me, so i have no idea at all how they would turn out.
Maybe you would get more reactions if you comment more on how they would be used in real games etc, describe many situations with the units. Makes it easier to know if the unit can fit into the game or not.
Working on Starbow!
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 18:42:34
October 29 2013 18:35 GMT
#9088
Just to clarify what I wrote in my last post on the previous page:

What we now have in Starbow is the core content. It is very much BW but with some minor additional units & spells. The basic game with a quite ok balance and stable foundation.

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
<<<

I will continue to complete this - fix the last bugs, tweak remaining abilities etc. But nothing fundamental will happen to that stuff - no content will be removed, replaced or heavily reworked. This is the base game. Once the remaining issues - macro mechanics, some abilities etc - are solved, this might be the final version of Sbow.

Summary:
1.) I will finish up the base game. (Kinda like Xiphias said)
2.) I will also release a larger patch for the test map where I give one last chance at some units like Roach, Marauder, etc, which I wrote about here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955&currentpage=454#9077
It will be a parallel version of Sbow with some additional content, to see how that feels. (Just as the test map usually is.)

Keep in mind - none of the new units shall require the game to be balanced around them. (Which I have done in the past.) More info in the link.

@Laertes units
Parts of their concepts sound fun, but they are not what I have in mind for the test map. I will rather use units and models who are more assosciated with Starcraft. Especially models are a problem - new unqiue units require unique models.
Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 18:55:12
October 29 2013 18:40 GMT
#9089
Come online!
Streaming: http://www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-08 16:55:47
October 29 2013 18:43 GMT
#9090
There seems to be some confusion about the macro mechanics that got added to the test map ca 1 week ago. (I have not changed them since that time.)

EDIT 8 December: These values are still correct!

Here are their current values:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Upgrade Nexus
- 100 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Gateway

- CB lasts 20 seconds, boosts by 50% and costs 15 energy.
- Rift cooldown 60 seconds, costs 50 energy.

Queen
- 150 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Pool

- Inject lasts 24 seconds, boosts Larva by 50% and costs 15 energy.
- Creep tumor 25 energy
- Nurturing swarm costs 25 energy, heals 75 life OR speed up morphing structure by 50% during 20 seconds.

Orbital command
- 125 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Barrack

- Calldown SCV cooldown 30 sec, costs 25 energy and 50 minerals.
- Overcharge costs 15 energy, boosts production speed by 50% at a Barrack, Factory or Starport during 15 seconds.
- Scan 25 energy.

Terran can still build Reactors and they work as in SC2. Engingeering bay is required though, to avoid breaking early game.

Overcharge and Chrono boost are essentially the same kind of mechanic. The difference lies in CB being better at higher tech units & upgrades, while Overcharge becomes better when used on a structure with a Reactor.

In pure time:
CB reduces production by 10 seconds.
Overcharge reduces production by 7.5 seconds. (If used on a structure with Reactor - production reduced by 15 seconds)


The Calldown-One-Time-Reactor-ability does not work properly due to editor problems so it will likely never get implemented into the game.
<<<

Here is the math I did to determine those values:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I looked at three criteria:
- Have potential to be more APM intensive than in SC2
- Have potential to boost worker production by the same % for all races if used perfectly.
- Have potential to boost army production by the same % for all races if used perfectly.

Worker production:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Here is the time it takes to produce 12 workers from 1 main base without any macro mechanics:

- T - 211.2 seconds
- P - 211,2 seconds
- Z - 234 seconds (The Hatchery starts with 1 Larva)

If each race produces workers non-stop from 1 main base, and uses constant CB, Inject and Calldown SCV, this is the time it takes to produce 12 workers:

- T - ca 150 seconds
- P - ca 150 seconds
- Z - ca 168 seconds (The Hatchery starts with 1 Larva)

The relationship between the races is almost intact. (No race has a macro advantage over another.) All races now have potential to boost their worker production by the same % value. (Ca 40%)
<<<

Army production:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I measured how many Marines, Zealots and Zerglings can be produced during 2 minutes from 1 production structure, without any macro mechanics. Normal values:

Z - 6,15x2 Zerglings from 1 Hatchery that starts with 1 Larva, during 2 minutes.
P - 3,5 Zealots from 1 Gateway during 2 minutes.
T - 5,7 Marines from 1 Barrack during 2 minutes.


If each race uses CB, Inject or Overcharge non-stop on the same production structure, this is the amount of units who are produced during 2 minutes:

Z - 9x2 Zerglings (46% more efficient production)
P - 5,2 Zealots. (48% more efficient production)
T - 7,6 Marines (33% more efficient production, 66% more efficient production if used on a structure with Reactor)

I tested some other units aswell. The relationship seems to be intact no matter what, All macro mechanics now have potential to boost army production by the same % value, if players use macro mechanics non-stop.
<<<
<<<

And some last comments:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

Apart from the worker + army boost, Zerg can boost structures morph speed, Chrono boost can boost upgrades, Terran can Calldown SCVs anywhere + boost movement speed on flying structures.
Leads to some racial diversity at least.

I am however not esepcially good at math. If anyone find any flaw in my calculations, please enlighten me. Perhaps those values can be fine-tuned further.

December made a good point during the stream today - as the game progresses, macro mechanics become less crucial to use since a lot of structures are enough to cover the macro production anyway. Compare it to BW where macro is equally APM intensive throughout the game.

I think we can live with that problem though. Macro mechanics add APM especially in the early and mid game. That is a time period where there usually is not that much micro or multitasking to do. In the late game, when players have multiple bases over the map and large armies, there is so much to do with the APM anyway. I suppose the best players might also be able to squeeze in some APM at macro mechanics, but it won´t be as crucial? But if they do, they still get an edge over the opponent? Not sure how to calculate the dimishing effect of macro mechanics in relation to the number of production facilities added over time.
<<<
Creator of Starbow
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-29 22:02:42
October 29 2013 22:02 GMT
#9091
Kinda liked the feeling of macromechanics. It definitely makes Sbow feels different - Beforehand it was a bit empty.

Anyway, Kabel, what are your thoughts on new core units? Will you present us with some type of plan/concept/idea for them soon?
Azelja
Profile Joined May 2011
Japan762 Posts
October 29 2013 22:19 GMT
#9092
I fear that I will dream of Vikings raping me.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 00:08:55
October 29 2013 23:09 GMT
#9093
Anyway, Kabel, what are your thoughts on new core units? Will you present us with some type of plan/concept/idea for them soon?


I will actually do it as a bold "suprise" this time. The patch will be released next week and I will make a detailed post where I present the new stuff for the test map. One major change in my attitude is that I will not tweak any other existing units to make this new stuff fit. No major balance changes of existing core units. That is my goal at least. And also a nice challenge.

The game might ofc be better if basic stuff also is tweaked, like you for example often suggest. But as experience tells us, it is much harder to get it right, and usually adds a lot of frustration to all of you who playtest, and unintended balance consequenses that requires more balance work and playtesting.

Don´t get me wrong. I don´t mind input, ideas, feedback or discussions from all of you who devote so much time and effort to Sbow. We have reached a nice essence of the game. What we have now might be the final Sbow, with some additional tweaking and fixes.

The next test map-patch only intends to add additional (hopefully) meaningful and fun content to the game. So we can try how it feels and then evaluate if anything of it seems solid enough to move into the real game. I have four concepts almost complete already and they seem ok when I do testing in the editor. (Not everything is my ideas.) None of this stuff is super crazy.

I am aware that many of you have sent me a lot of ideas that you would like to see in the test map. But I can not try or add everything. I will do this next large test-patch, and see where the game goes from there. Maybe someone gets nice ideas to improve it further. Or maybe we just feel that now is enough. And we do no more crazy testing for a while.

Ps. This is just a side-thing. I will still keep working on the current version of Sbow to finalize it.
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 00:01:07
October 29 2013 23:39 GMT
#9094
I fear that I will dream of Vikings raping me.


Here are some balance concerns I have, according to the current content in the game:

- Nerve Jammer vs Lurkers (Shuts them down so easily)
- Corsair, Scout and Sentinel might get some tweaking with their abilities. (Maybe a rearrangement of spells)
- Scourge with splash.
- Abduct
- Viking vs Mutalisks

Here is what I have in mind:

Nerve Jammer:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Make Nerve Jammer not affect burrowed units.


Corsair, Scout and Sentinel:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Let Corsair still have Graviton beam.
Lifted units are invulnerable and can not be attacked. Instead Graviton Beam deals 4 dmg per second to medium & armored units, 8 dmg per second to light units. (Kills a worker in 5-6 seconds. Can not kill Hydras, Dragoons, Queens etc as easily... Deals 48 dmg vs medium & armored. 96 dmg to light units. Lasts 12 seconds. Can ofc be tweaked.

- Scout requires Fleet beacon. (Which it already does. This is because it shuts down enemy air harassment so easily in a lame way. Besides, Corsair + Sentinel offers nice early harassment potential for P. ) Can still use the Phase missile ability to destroy energy. Will now be able to research an upgrade for 50/50 that allows them to attack Lifted units. (So Corsair + Scout combo is still possible to snipe units.) The Phase Missile ability might require some additional micro work though.

- I will bring up Sentinel spells later. (MAYBE will Phase Missile be mvoed here. PERHAPS can there be some kind of Disruption Web ability here as well.)


Abduct:

+ Show Spoiler +
- Two reasons why I do not like the normal version of Abudct:
1) Together with a deathball, it essentially becomes a "destroy target unit" - spell.
2) With only a small Zerg army nearby, it is rarely as useful to use. (Since the dmg output is not enough to kill the pulled enemy unit.)

I know many of you have suggested some fun ways to improve it. But all of them require huge editor work. (Like Abduct can be dodged, the Abduct missile can be focus fired etc.)

Here is what I will likely do:
- Pull target unit towards the Viper. That unit becomes incubated in green slime for ca 10 seconds. It can not move, attack or receive dmg during this time.

It is now useful to disable units, even together with small Zerg hit squads. In deathballs, it is not just to A-move with mass Hydras and Abduct enemy units into the ball to instant kill them. Kinda like a mini-Stasis, if you so will. If you Abduct your own units, they are not incubated. (So you can save your stuff if you are gosu.)

Super great idea? There are surely better ways to "fix" Abduct. But this is easy to make in the editor and I do at least think it is better than normal Abduct.


Scourge with splash
+ Show Spoiler +
I don´t consider it a problem. I like that Scourges can punish clumped up enemy blobs of Vessels, Corsairs and other stuff. Spliiit! Keep air units in small groups. Imagine ZvZ with splitted Mutas, instead of everything blobbed up like in BW. Aahhhhhh nerdgasm..
- Improve Scourge micro, enemy micro vs Scourge.
- Change Scourge splash damage or radius.

If necessary.


Viking vs Mutalisks
+ Show Spoiler +
Two things are fun:
- Splash air combats
- High movement speed on air units

Splash air combats allows for splitting, flanking, focus fire, micro to a larger degree compared to single target dmg.
A smaller army can win over a larger air army with good micro, if there is splash dmg involved.

High movement speed allows gosu moves.. pew pew pew snipe that whaaaam whaaaam dodge shoot bam bam.


What is not fun:
- Splash dmg who instant kill everything. (Happens to Corsairs and Vikings who reaches critical mass.)
- High movement speed combined with super fast kiting, so Zerg Scourge or Mutalisks can never touch the Vikings.

Keep in mind that Vikings do have a speed upgrade. They start with speed 3.25. Can upgrade to 3.75. Same as Mutas.

I have not decided yet how to tackle this problem. Maybe make Vikings missile be dodgeable. Lower splash dmg. Rework how their attack work. Find ways to add more micro into Viking combats. Or as a last solution: Replace them with Wraiths.. O_oooooooooooooooooo

In BW, Zerg had to prevent P from getting a critical mass of Corsairs by sniping them with Scourge. Perhaps the similar will be true vs Vikings, in terms of "strategic play." But if we look at isolated micro battles, Corsairs vs Mutalisks are genereally quite fun as long as neither side has a critical mass. Mutalisks vs Vikings do not feel as fun IMO. Hmm..


Creator of Starbow
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
October 30 2013 00:06 GMT
#9095
In bw, mutas/scourge could micro vs criticalmass of corsairs.
here its so hard, cuz mutas stack insanely. I guess if you learn how to micro you never a-move and press stop so they dont stack and so on, maybe it can work but would be nice with a "splitbutton" or something maybe?

Scourges are insanely bad atm, i guess that will get fixed very soon tho.
VIkings>valkyires to easy. It has been said several times already.

Ofcourse muta vs viking is not as fun cuz viking is still imba as hell.
Even with movement speed 3.25, it doesnt change the fact that vikings are still to good. Now tho instead of using them more agressive they go passiveplay with them.

With support of marines/goliaths. What can zerg do? Wanna target that viking? It can still kite, move after it has shoot.
Viking had to stand still 2seconds and were more expensive, more tech.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 00:20:19
October 30 2013 00:15 GMT
#9096
With support of marines/goliaths. What can zerg do? Wanna target that viking? It can still kite, move after it has shoot.
Viking had to stand still 2seconds and were more expensive, more tech.


The Viking intends to be the basic Terran air unit. Kinda like the Wraiths role in BW - fast, mobile, cheap, fragile, good vs air, can harass. (Transform) So I would like the Viking to remain at that tech slot. Not move it to become just a Valkyre 2.0 with Armory requirement and twice as expensive. (Since T would lack a basic air unit)

Make it stand still for 1-2 seconds is a solution. But it is also not that fun IMO. Micro an agile unit like the Wraith was much more fun in BW than to micro clumpsy Valkyres.

The optimal would be if Vikings could remain as quite cheap, fast, fragile air units who allows for nice and fun micro.
But still be useful as an anti-air unit. Earlier it did only single target dmg. And that was not especially useful vs Mutalisks.
But unless something better comes to mind, maybe the splash must be removed anyway.

In bw, mutas/scourge could micro vs criticalmass of corsairs.
here its so hard, cuz mutas stack insanely. I guess if you learn how to micro you never a-move and press stop so they dont stack and so on, maybe it can work but would be nice with a "splitbutton" or something maybe?

Scourges are insanely bad atm, i guess that will get fixed very soon tho


Any comments on this, December?
(Since you are the master at adding micro to units)

PS. Anyone knows any good BW VODS with nice air combats? (Especially Corsair vs Muta, Wraith or Valkyre vs Muta)
Just to get a better look into the feeling of those combats, compared to Sbow feelings.
Creator of Starbow
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
October 30 2013 00:58 GMT
#9097
- Scout requires Fleet beacon. (Which it already does. This is because it shuts down enemy air harassment so easily in a lame way. Besides, Corsair + Sentinel offers nice early harassment potential for P. ) Can still use the Phase missile ability to destroy energy. Will now be able to research an upgrade for 50/50 that allows them to attack Lifted units. (So Corsair + Scout combo is still possible to snipe units.


Does this change come with a Scout buff? Otherwise the Scout will still suck ever so badly against non energy units.
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
October 30 2013 00:58 GMT
#9098
Replace banshee iwth wraith? Make his groundattack better?
Requires no techlab.

And make viking more like valkyrie?
Valkyrie was not boring to use in bw for me. He felt pretty cool actually
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 10:43:15
October 30 2013 01:08 GMT
#9099
The Viking intends to be the basic Terran air unit. Kinda like the Wraiths role in BW - fast, mobile, cheap, fragile, good vs air, can harass. (Transform) So I would like the Viking to remain at that tech slot. Not move it to become just a Valkyre 2.0 with Armory requirement and twice as expensive. (Since T would lack a basic air unit)

Make it stand still for 1-2 seconds is a solution. But it is also not that fun IMO. Micro an agile unit like the Wraith was much more fun in BW than to micro clumpsy Valkyres.

The optimal would be if Vikings could remain as quite cheap, fast, fragile air units who allows for nice and fun micro.
But still be useful as an anti-air unit. Earlier it did only single target dmg. And that was not especially useful vs Mutalisks.
But unless something better comes to mind, maybe the splash must be removed anyway.


Viking;

- Remove Speed upgrade

- Increase default speed to 3.55 (slightly slower than Mutalisks)

- Reduce accelaration --> Mutalisks can get hit offs when Vikings try to kite (should have a similar effect on balance as the stand-still thing, slightly less drastic though)

- Increase HP --> They die extremely fast now to Scourges/Mutalisks which kinda create a type of gameplay where you can never allow your Vikings to take a hit from the Mutalisks. That's not a healthy dynamic as it implies that Vikings will either be too strong or too weak vs Mutalisks when used offensively.

- Put Armory and tech lab requirement on it -->You can no longer get Vikigns out fast and use them in a passive way to kill off mutalisk harass (since they are more tech expensive). You can instead get them in the mid/late game where they are a strong mapcontrollish units and hopefully neither too weak nor too strong vs Mutalisks/Scourges.

Btw why on earth do we still have reactors in the game??? Doesn't really add anything to the game, except skewing up balance a bit.

Corsair + Scout

Now that the Sentinel is no longer anti-mech with its SG, we can change how Graviton Beam works. Instead, of doing damage over time, we should give it a higher range (units being lifted shuold obv. be immune to damage). 6-7 range will make it usefull vs Lurkers/Siege Tanks.

I don't see what it adds to the game to make Corsair + Scout synergize with each other as it doesn't really have any unique micro. Further, I am also not sure we can balance it.

Rather, I like the idea of the Scout to make it anti-static defense by giving it a + damage vs buildings upgrade.
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
October 30 2013 02:25 GMT
#9100
How about instead of making units immune to damage while G. Lifted, why not just give them 5 (or more) armor? the upgrade to make scouts able to attack GLifted units seems oddly specific. Either way you do it, it's a good thing you're changing lift. Corsairs with lift are a bit too strong vs Zerg i think. Now you can use hydras to fend off sairs a bit easier, and sair harass will take more time and commitment.

I like the Abduct and nerve jammer changes. You could possibly make it give your own units goo as well? [i'm also thinking that you can possibly make it heal units? sort of like the raven ability in onegoal]
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
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