• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:25
CEST 03:25
KST 10:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation CN community: Firefly accused of suspicious activities How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Serious Question: Mech
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? Mihu vs Korea Players Statistics BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 21454 users

Match-Fixing Scandal - Conclusion - Page 45

Forum Index > News
1147 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 43 44 45 46 47 58 Next
kawatan
Profile Joined January 2010
288 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 12:45:53
May 19 2010 12:43 GMT
#881
On May 19 2010 21:27 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2010 21:11 kawatan wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:02 Zato-1 wrote:
On May 19 2010 20:21 kawatan wrote:
leta - i don't like the guy but i do hope he isn't involved although i have a strong feeling that he is. the leta vs. forgg proleague seems awfully suspicious of some sort of an underhanded tactic.

Wait, Leta? In the interest of keeping misinformation low, I believe there's no good reason to suspect that he's involved in this. I was worried for a bit with the confession of "Mr. Shin" (Leta is Shin Sang Moon), but that turned out to be Upmagic. Gut feeling isn't a very good reason to suspect him, IMO.


well they are best friends and what do best friends do? they share secrets.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102126

That's a better reason to suspect him than a hunch, but I believe you're still fairly alone in suspecting him. If I've learned anything in this thread, it's that you should be careful with what you throw out there in a sensitive issue such as this one.


with leta so close to type-b, gogo, yarnc, lux, and upmagic - i mean c'mon. you can't be that close to a shit pile and not smell the stink.


Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
May 19 2010 12:53 GMT
#882
On May 19 2010 21:43 kawatan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2010 21:27 Zato-1 wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:11 kawatan wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:02 Zato-1 wrote:
On May 19 2010 20:21 kawatan wrote:
leta - i don't like the guy but i do hope he isn't involved although i have a strong feeling that he is. the leta vs. forgg proleague seems awfully suspicious of some sort of an underhanded tactic.

Wait, Leta? In the interest of keeping misinformation low, I believe there's no good reason to suspect that he's involved in this. I was worried for a bit with the confession of "Mr. Shin" (Leta is Shin Sang Moon), but that turned out to be Upmagic. Gut feeling isn't a very good reason to suspect him, IMO.


well they are best friends and what do best friends do? they share secrets.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102126

That's a better reason to suspect him than a hunch, but I believe you're still fairly alone in suspecting him. If I've learned anything in this thread, it's that you should be careful with what you throw out there in a sensitive issue such as this one.


with leta so close to type-b, gogo, yarnc, lux, and upmagic - i mean c'mon. you can't be that close to a shit pile and not smell the stink.

He may have suspected or even known about the issue, but that doesn't mean he participated himself. Saying he was involved personally is nothing but wild speculation at this point.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Polar_Bear
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany55 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 12:56:07
May 19 2010 12:55 GMT
#883
To sum it up:
-there are people with "different moral values" there always have been people with dmv and there always will be people with dmv
-everyone is surprised now, so most people were aware that thing like this can happen
-a few players already apologized, some more will follow

One aspect of this whole story is overlooked completely:
Could it be, that commercial betting is a part of this problem?
Nobody in this thread even questions why people essentially throw away their money.
I never betted on anything except with my friends on a football game in a bar, where the bet was like 2 beers each time.
With online betting you can only lose money IN THE LONG RUN, even if your guesses are extremely good, the odds are simply to bad. Your state of information has to be that far above the others, that you can't win without "knowing" the results.
When will this shit stop?

kawatan
Profile Joined January 2010
288 Posts
May 19 2010 13:15 GMT
#884
On May 19 2010 21:53 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2010 21:43 kawatan wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:27 Zato-1 wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:11 kawatan wrote:
On May 19 2010 21:02 Zato-1 wrote:
On May 19 2010 20:21 kawatan wrote:
leta - i don't like the guy but i do hope he isn't involved although i have a strong feeling that he is. the leta vs. forgg proleague seems awfully suspicious of some sort of an underhanded tactic.

Wait, Leta? In the interest of keeping misinformation low, I believe there's no good reason to suspect that he's involved in this. I was worried for a bit with the confession of "Mr. Shin" (Leta is Shin Sang Moon), but that turned out to be Upmagic. Gut feeling isn't a very good reason to suspect him, IMO.


well they are best friends and what do best friends do? they share secrets.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102126

That's a better reason to suspect him than a hunch, but I believe you're still fairly alone in suspecting him. If I've learned anything in this thread, it's that you should be careful with what you throw out there in a sensitive issue such as this one.


with leta so close to type-b, gogo, yarnc, lux, and upmagic - i mean c'mon. you can't be that close to a shit pile and not smell the stink.

He may have suspected or even known about the issue, but that doesn't mean he participated himself. Saying he was involved personally is nothing but wild speculation at this point.


well he may be an enabler and an accessory to the fact. knowledge of the crime makes the accessory a douchebag as well. while he's not a suspect, he certainly is a person of interest.

just to clear things up i didn't say he participated nor did i say he was involved personally or even suspect that he did anything. i said: i have a strong feeling. please... read. participate, personal involvement and suspect are such strong words. methinks you're trying to put words in my keyboard.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 13:27:26
May 19 2010 13:24 GMT
#885
On May 19 2010 22:15 kawatan wrote:
well he may be an enabler and an accessory to the fact. knowledge of the crime makes the accessory a douchebag as well. while he's not a suspect, he certainly is a person of interest.

just to clear things up i didn't say he participated nor did i say he was involved personally or even suspect that he did anything. i said: i have a strong feeling. please... read. participate, personal involvement and suspect are such strong words. methinks you're trying to put words in my keyboard.

No, you were pretty clear with what you were saying. I just thought it was worthwhile to clear up what you weren't claiming about Leta.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
OhThatDang
Profile Joined August 2004
United States4685 Posts
May 19 2010 15:51 GMT
#886
On May 19 2010 21:55 Polar_Bear wrote:
To sum it up:
-there are people with "different moral values" there always have been people with dmv and there always will be people with dmv
-everyone is surprised now, so most people were aware that thing like this can happen
-a few players already apologized, some more will follow

One aspect of this whole story is overlooked completely:
Could it be, that commercial betting is a part of this problem?
Nobody in this thread even questions why people essentially throw away their money.
I never betted on anything except with my friends on a football game in a bar, where the bet was like 2 beers each time.
With online betting you can only lose money IN THE LONG RUN, even if your guesses are extremely good, the odds are simply to bad. Your state of information has to be that far above the others, that you can't win without "knowing" the results.
When will this shit stop?



nono that issue has been cleared and, people like to take risk. Additionally they felt that they dont lose money because their guesses ARE good if they simply bet on them losing =) however i guess uve capitalized "in the long run" because you would eventually lose?

troi oi thang map nai!!!
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
May 19 2010 15:56 GMT
#887
Some people would have too much pride in their own name value to fall this low.

Some people would be too attached to the monetary aspect of fame and sink deep for some cash to maintain a lifestyle.

Well, it is absolutely certain now that Savior will never be revived, ever.
PhOeniX[MinD]
Profile Joined August 2008
361 Posts
May 19 2010 16:13 GMT
#888
On May 17 2010 20:25 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2010 20:18 Crotarocks wrote:
Sorry there i have a reading problem when i'm tired i read something wrong.

Who is Savior anyways?

Savior, aka Roll-Ex, was a 4 time Starleague winner and no doubt the best player of his era.

Later turned out to be a complete scumbag.


LMAO really good explanation of who is savior and im really surprise that somebody doesn't know sAvior he was one of the best players of the world for a good period of time. u must be new on this i suppose
KT_FlaSh #1
LunarDestiny
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States4177 Posts
May 19 2010 16:34 GMT
#889
Wait. Go.Go was involved. Then what would happened to Nalra's Old Boy Series?
bigboss025
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2 Posts
May 19 2010 16:54 GMT
#890
Sorry but I am a bit confuse, did Savior really saved pratice video and showed it to their teammates' opponents aka sellout his teammates ? cuz that coach Cho' box thing is fake right ?
There's only room for one Snake and one Big Boss
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
May 19 2010 17:08 GMT
#891
On May 20 2010 01:54 bigboss025 wrote:
Sorry but I am a bit confuse, did Savior really saved pratice video and showed it to their teammates' opponents aka sellout his teammates ? cuz that coach Cho' box thing is fake right ?

There is no reason to think he's guilty of that, no.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
May 19 2010 17:24 GMT
#892
On May 20 2010 01:34 LunarDestiny wrote:
Wait. Go.Go was involved. Then what would happened to Nalra's Old Boy Series?


This surely means go.go will never appear in the series again.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
May 19 2010 18:07 GMT
#893
We will probably see Luxury and others playing SC2 very soon.
I am not good with quotes
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
May 19 2010 18:14 GMT
#894
On May 20 2010 03:07 s.a.y wrote:
We will probably see Luxury and others playing SC2 very soon.


Would any team pick them up though?

You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 18:41:19
May 19 2010 18:30 GMT
#895
For all the hate these players are getting, you guys DO realize the only ACTUAL victims in all of this were people that took part in illegal gambling themselves and bet the wrong way, right? These people are being prosecuted and punished for taking part in illegal gambling, not betraying their fans or any nonsense like that...

It's been widely known that pro-gamers occasionally throw games for other reasons and for the most part, nobody condemned them for betraying their fans or being the scum of the earth for doing so. Generally we just laughed about it and made fun of them for dodging a match or something. All of a sudden because there's money involved, we suddenly don't tolerate players throwing games and they're the scum of the earth for doing so?

Aside from any emotional investment you may have, what did you actually lose here that you didn't when Hwasin and Calm agreed to split their prize money or whenever someone purposely lost to avoid playing a top player or teammate?
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 18:46:39
May 19 2010 18:42 GMT
#896
What are you talking about? Since when has it been "widely known that pro-gamers occasionally throw games" and since when has anyone ever been cool with the idea of throwing games?

Throwing games has never been something that's tolerated because it's a complete violation of sports ethics. The fact that it was done systematically for money here is particularly grievous because it's a violation of sporting ethics (and a betrayal of the trust between the audience and players) motivated purely by greed. It's about the worst thing you can do as a sportsman.


Honestly I think you're missing the point. People aren't outraged because of the crime of illegal betting, people are outraged because of the players completely pissing all over the spirit of the sport and sporting ethics in general. They not only betrayed the audience but all the other players on their team and otherwise. That's why there's an outrage.

You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 19:01:37
May 19 2010 18:54 GMT
#897
If you've followed professional Starcraft on any level, you would have known that certain games were thrown even before all of this happened. Games were regularly thrown to avoid facing teammates or avoid facing certain bracket positions. It's happened at WCG, GomTV Invitational, and on one level or another just about any tournament where you can strategically navigate your path through the brackets to best suit your tastes. And yes, for the most part it's been tolerated. Nobody called a player throwing a game to avoid playing JD, "the scum of the earth". Nobody felt that Hwasin and Calm should have been thrown in jail for agreeing to let Hwasin win and splitting the prize money half and half.

All of a sudden now that it's in the media and people are making a big deal of it, there are people saying these people should be burned at the stake when we all already knew that it was going on to a certain extent anyway. Of course, the illegal gambling part does make it a bit worse, but a fixed game is a fixed game regardless of the reason. The only person the illegal gambling part of it affects are the people who lose money gambling. The whole sportsmanship thing goes out the window when someone throws a game to avoid a certain bracket position too or if someone purposely loses a game to avoid playing his teammate next. The fans are equally cheated in these instances even without money being involved.

The truth is there's nothing here to make such a huge deal about. The fans got their games and if they didn't know about this, nobody would have thought twice about it. There's also no guarantee that the games would have been any better or worse had they not been fixed. Personally, I haven't lost anything here and I'm just going to continue to watch. If you're going to complain about the loss of integrity, I would argue that there's no reason to stop watching because of that since due to these events, there's probably more integrity in this game today than there was a year ago anyway.

So what's the big deal again? It's not the end of the world, these people aren't the spawn of Satan, and let's all be sensible enough to admit that most of us didn't lose anything here that we didn't already lose in other instances of game throwing that we didn't get all up in arms about...
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
May 19 2010 19:05 GMT
#898
On May 20 2010 03:54 JinMaikeul wrote:
If you've followed professional Starcraft on any level, you would have known that certain games were thrown even before all of this happened. Games were regularly thrown to avoid facing teammates or avoid facing certain bracket positions. It's happened at WCG, GomTV Invitational, and on one level or another just about any tournament where you can strategically navigate your path through the brackets to best suit your tastes. And yes, for the most part it's been tolerated. Nobody called a player throwing a game to avoid playing JD, "the scum of the earth". Nobody felt that Hwasin and Calm should have been thrown in jail for agreeing to let Hwasin win and splitting the prize money half and half.

All of a sudden now that it's in the media and people are making a big deal of it, there are people saying these people should be burned at the stake when we all already knew that it was going on to a certain extent anyway. Of course, the illegal gambling part does make it a bit worse, but a fixed game is a fixed game regardless of the reason. The only person the illegal gambling part of it affects are the people who lose money gambling. The whole sportsmanship thing goes out the window when someone throws a game to avoid a certain bracket position too or if someone purposely loses a game to avoid playing his teammate next. The fans are equally cheated in these instances even without money being involved.

The truth is there's nothing here to make such a huge deal about. The fans got their games and if they didn't know about this, nobody would have thought twice about it. There's also no guarantee that the games would have been any better or worse had they not been fixed. Personally, I haven't lost anything here and I'm just going to continue to watch. If you're going to complain about the loss of integrity, I would argue that there's no reason to stop watching because of that since due to these events, there's probably more integrity in this game today than there was a year ago anyway.

So what's the big deal again? It's not the end of the world, these people aren't the spawn of Satan, and let's all be sensible enough to admit that most of us didn't lose anything here that we didn't already lose in other instances of game throwing that we didn't get all up in arms about...


LOOOOOOOOOOOL

what about their teammates?
why so 진지해?
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 19:16:43
May 19 2010 19:13 GMT
#899
Well obviously I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's a bit hypocritical of us to pretty much accept one instance of throwing a match and then go out and say that people should burn in hell for some other instance of it.

Of course there were others that were closer to the situation that have every right to be upset, but I'm personally not one of them. Like I said, these people are looking at consequences for being involved specifically in illegal gambling and that's why they're looking at potential jailtime. Trust is given and broken. Anyone who's ever had friendships go bad or has been lied to can attest to this and while it's terrible when it's broken, it's certainly not a reason to condemn someone to burn in hell or rot in prison.

We CAN denounce match-fixing (for money or not) while keeping everything in perspective, you know... I just find it unnecessary to exaggerate things just because they made it into the Korean news.
cognizantfire
Profile Joined March 2010
Hong Kong77 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 19:21:07
May 19 2010 19:20 GMT
#900
(Z)Yarnc apologizes in his internet cafe:

[image loading]


To all those related to e-Sports, my seniors and juniors, and also the many fans who cheered on for me, I am deeply sorry to you.
My heart is troubled everyday because I let down the fans who have always believed in me and supported me.
Everyday I keep saying sorry and sorry again in my heart.
I feel ashamed of myself for being unable to resist the temptation and brought huge disappointment to the fans, I am truly sorry.
I have greatly disappointed the fans of e-Sports.
I have reflected on myself everyday, and feel especially sorry to the fans who believed and supported me.
I really don't know how I should apologize...
Writing this won't make me become forgiven...
Even I cannot forgive myself...
This incident really made me understand a lot more, I will turn a new leaf and live more honestly from now on.
I sincerely apologize again.
I'm sorry.
Prev 1 43 44 45 46 47 58 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2025 KFC #10: SC Evolution
CranKy Ducklings143
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft453
Nina 146
Livibee 93
-ZergGirl 40
Ketroc 20
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 1129
Artosis 760
NaDa 11
Icarus 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever431
NeuroSwarm68
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1285
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King64
Other Games
summit1g10319
shahzam1635
JimRising 455
Maynarde108
RuFF_SC218
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick904
BasetradeTV76
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH178
• Mapu4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki34
• RayReign 31
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5636
Other Games
• Scarra1176
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 35m
WardiTV Invitational
9h 35m
WardiTV Invitational
9h 35m
PiGosaur Monday
22h 35m
GSL Code S
1d 8h
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
GSL Code S
2 days
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
OSC
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Cheesadelphia
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.