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Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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worst.player
Profile Joined July 2004
625 Posts
November 13 2004 23:46 GMT
#61
On November 14 2004 07:35 Fedaykin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2004 17:24 worst.player wrote:
Why would you ever stop making workers? More workers = more expos = more money = more gateways = more wins.

NTT once gave me that advice


And you should listen to it!!
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 14 2004 00:20 GMT
#62
I think it's #patches*2+4
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Jim
Profile Joined November 2003
Sweden1965 Posts
November 14 2004 01:32 GMT
#63
This totally depends on WHEN you are going to attack or WHEN you need to defend. For example a 4 pool cuts drones in the beginning to launch a very fast attack. Perhaps the optimal amount for an attack at 9mins for terran against a toss who goes fast carrier would be 24 scvs(I am just making numbers up.). Perhaps you need to cut a scv in the beginning to get a tank slightly faster in tvp..
To sup with the mighty ones, one must climb the path of daggers.
LOcDowN
Profile Joined February 2003
United States1015 Posts
November 14 2004 01:33 GMT
#64
On November 14 2004 08:04 88)WhyYouKickMyDog wrote:
LoCDowN there is no right answer. its all situational, like everything else in starcraft. if your asking for the number of SCV's required to mine the fastest out of like a 8 patch mineral field, its INFINITE, because just by random chance, if you have 200/200 SCV's mining it, give it a few years of leaving SC running, and im sure for one split second, all the workers looking for a patch will be on the wrong side, and you wont be gathering from that one patch.

So, there IS NO ANSWER to your question, just use common sense. you build SCV's when you think the money is best spent investing in one. Take into account things like how many SCV's you already have mining, how many bases you have, and if spending the 50 mins on something other than an SCV would benefit you more than spending on an SCV.

The only way to learn this is to play a good deal, and think about why you're doing it.

A better question than yours would be "How much faster does 20 SCV mine than 15 SCV on a 8 patch mineral field?" or something like that, so your gauging of whether the new SCV is a good investment is more accurate. But until you have the other basic knowledge that you get from playing and understanding the game, thats kinda worthless information.


Don't tell me there is no optimal value, as it is mentioned many times in this thread. Several peoples here also posted the saturation limited. From all these datas the reader should have a sense of the range in term of maximum efficiency & understanding the saturation limit. Ofcourse there is an inefficient factor as the number of SCV increase. However, I do think the inefficient factor can be decreased and this is the point of this thread - to find the optimal value for mineral efficiency. You do realize by understanding one variable, in this case our optimal value, we can compare it to other higher or lower set of SCV ranging from 15 (as you stated) to 40 (as GroT stated). One variable can trigger other questions to be ask. It can also set a standard value to measure for something else.
LOcDowN
Profile Joined February 2003
United States1015 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-14 01:44:09
November 14 2004 01:40 GMT
#65
I will also be willing to bet the top pro players in Korea do understand the idea behind this and can subconsciously sense the rate of income/sec increase according to the optimal value.
Geval
Profile Joined September 2004
788 Posts
November 14 2004 03:29 GMT
#66
I usually pomp workers all time untill I run out of min in particular main or exp.
I do it because I ll need workers for my new exp. Well I stop when the # affect my unit limit though. Anyway I believe of 8 on LT you should have 30-50 workers per exantion unless your zerg and not more than 100 in total at any time.
WOW cant believe LT gave me BETA KEY thx thx thx thx thx
LordOfDabu
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
United States394 Posts
November 14 2004 04:25 GMT
#67
So I did a little test on Lost Temple. I basically edited the map and added the following two triggers:

Always: Create x Protoss Probe
Player 1 Accumulates 12000 [that's 8 x 1500, the amount at one starting location] ]ore: End scenario in victory

I then tried various values of x and sent all probes to mine. When the scenario ended I took note of how long it took to mine out the location. I first did 20-25 and then 30 and 35. All of these tests were done at the 9 spot.

Hopefully my chart will come out okay.

Number of Probes / Time taken to mine / Minerals/min / Cost of probes / Money gained

20 14:05 852 1000 11000
21 13:20 900 1050 10950
22 12:52 933 1100 10900
23 11:54 1008 1150 10850
24 11:13 1070 1200 10800
25 11:17 1064 1250 10750
30 11:00 1090 1500 10500
35 11:02 1088 1750 10250

Some things of note is that it sometimes took longer with more probes: I assume this is due to the randomness and/or movement of the probe AI (such as when a probe arrived at a location already being mined). It looks like the desired number of probes is 24, which is surprisingly exactly 3x the number of mineral patches.

I'll probably rerun the test again later to verify that the times I get are close, as well as with scvs and drones.
Think fast. Click faster.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:11 GMT
#68
On November 13 2004 15:43 BigBalls wrote:
Then someone test it.

Ive been wanting to do this for a long time but never got around to it.

Ive been thinking that my macro is stronger midgame than almost all other players because i play with a low amount of workers

if an optimal amount of workers per base could be found, then people could perhaps save hundreds of minerals that would be better spent on other things


Tell me about it.I found out the exact number of workers for every resourse before this WCG.But the results are secret.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:12 GMT
#69
On November 13 2004 15:52 SuNDAnce wrote:
Pros don't count their workers (at least T and P pros).They just feel if they have enough workers.You can see in FP vods where zerg player count drones at early stage of game.He want only ensure if he have at least 12 drones per base (when he exp to his nat).After that stage of game there are only two degrees for them : thy have enough drones in that particular base or the dont have enough drones in that base.That's how i see it.

Wrong.At least some of them do it and its of incredible importance in PvP and ZvZ matches.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:13 GMT
#70
On November 13 2004 16:49 IntoTheWow wrote:
Depends in you strat. Some people play TvT with little scv count so they get more money early game, have a faster fact, etc. Depends on your scouting. If you talk about non-stop producing game? i would go for all i can afford as your opponents tend to harras you mineral line (lurk drop or storm drop as an example)

I think zerg is the race in which you actually have to specifically measure your drone count.

It was like this for some time, but now other races must pay attention to it as well.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:15 GMT
#71
On November 13 2004 19:23 Day[9] wrote:
The saturation limit is about 36

What i mean by that is that anymore workers than 36 won't increase the rate of money collection

I can work out the set of integrals for it if you REALLY REALLY wanted to ;p
takes a while but, hey, i am a serious friggin nerd ;P

Ive tested it.Its lower.At least in practical value ,cause I dont see 5 minerals/minute more to be a reason to make more scvs.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
worst.player
Profile Joined July 2004
625 Posts
November 14 2004 06:19 GMT
#72
day, whip out those integrals. pvp zvz tvt would be interesting to see what the optimal value of workers is (of course different for different strats).

pvt pvz etc it's non-stop probes if you have strong macro.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:27 GMT
#73
On November 14 2004 13:25 LordOfDabu wrote:
So I did a little test on Lost Temple. I basically edited the map and added the following two triggers:

Always: Create x Protoss Probe
Player 1 Accumulates 12000 [that's 8 x 1500, the amount at one starting location] ]ore: End scenario in victory

I then tried various values of x and sent all probes to mine. When the scenario ended I took note of how long it took to mine out the location. I first did 20-25 and then 30 and 35. All of these tests were done at the 9 spot.

Hopefully my chart will come out okay.

Number of Probes / Time taken to mine / Minerals/min / Cost of probes / Money gained

20 14:05 852 1000 11000
21 13:20 900 1050 10950
22 12:52 933 1100 10900
23 11:54 1008 1150 10850
24 11:13 1070 1200 10800
25 11:17 1064 1250 10750
30 11:00 1090 1500 10500
35 11:02 1088 1750 10250

Some things of note is that it sometimes took longer with more probes: I assume this is due to the randomness and/or movement of the probe AI (such as when a probe arrived at a location already being mined). It looks like the desired number of probes is 24, which is surprisingly exactly 3x the number of mineral patches.

I'll probably rerun the test again later to verify that the times I get are close, as well as with scvs and drones.

I myself practiced for the match with testie on Guillotine PvP and every time I counted exactly 22 probes(as you can see the perfect) at minerals and 3 or 4 at gas depending on position.I had the build perfected incredibly and he tricked me into not playing it.

Your results arent surprising.More scvs sometimes make it less efficient .Thats what my testing showed too.I stop at like 24-25 scvs at 8 minerals , at like 18-19 at 6 mins and exactly 13 at 5.I gave the numbers with some difference, cause you never know how much youre gonna build with those scvs.

Of course, you cant count your workers every time.But sometimes you can.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-14 06:32:57
November 14 2004 06:29 GMT
#74
On November 14 2004 15:19 worst.player wrote:
day, whip out those integrals. pvp zvz tvt would be interesting to see what the optimal value of workers is (of course different for different strats).

pvt pvz etc it's non-stop probes if you have strong macro.

TvT only early game.Late game its mass scvs and one reason for it is that the scvs are pretty much a fighting unit in TvT...

I think youre wrong about the PvT and PvZ.You need to cut probes exactly when you need to mass at PvT.Like going double expo making non stop workers and suddenly stopping and going 12 gates army.

PvZ its even easier to see that you dont need so many minerals cause you cant expo so much anyway.Especially for some 1 base builds players tend to stop building probes early until they are ready to get their expo running.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 14 2004 06:37 GMT
#75
Btw,Grot, I find it kind of impossible for 40 workers to show a great difference than 30.Are you sure you tested it after the workers were given some time to mine?And btw ,I found out that 30 workers may actually mine less than 25 for instance ,so I guess only a looong and detailed research on all the numbers from 15 to 40 can really show something.

Btw, when calculating ,since I was watching the scvs for quite some time ,I thought of some ways to place buildings to make them wonder around less.I think it does help a bit.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
OverTheUnder
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2929 Posts
November 14 2004 07:01 GMT
#76
wow, thats dedication beastO_O
Honor would be taking it up the ass and curing all diseases, damn how stupid can people get. -baal http://puertoricanbw.ytmnd.com/
Firazpiral
Profile Joined May 2004
59 Posts
November 14 2004 07:55 GMT
#77
you need 5 drones per patch, 2 probes per patch, and 1 scv per patch
Locked
Profile Joined September 2004
United States4182 Posts
November 14 2004 08:33 GMT
#78
On November 14 2004 16:55 Firazpiral wrote:
you need 5 drones per patch, 2 probes per patch, and 1 scv per patch


that's got to be the worst advice ever.

I don't know if i hope you're a troll or just dumb.
UMS map pack http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50442
BigBalls
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States5354 Posts
November 14 2004 08:51 GMT
#79
On November 13 2004 20:36 GroT wrote:
I tested a small, specific part of this months ago, because i used bamboo nearly every game and I very oftne found myself in the situation where you have about 40 SCV and only a single mineral field to mine from.

Now, what I rnoted about those tests is that 40 SCV still mine (considerably) faster than 30 SCV, even if they are all on one mineral field and it looks like it's just overburdouned with workers . These numbers are exact, it was 40 workers vs 30 workers.


Now, let me ask you this: when will you ever have 40 scvs on each of your expansions? not too often huh?that's where the "never stop worker production" theory comes from

Now let me ask you this. If you have 4 mining bases and you want to mine with as close to optimal efficiency as possible (i say as possible because maybe 50 SCV mine even faster, I don't know), you need 160 SCV's. That leaves you 40 supply for units when you are maxed out. This look good? no?

"Never stop workers" <- bull shit


as to when you actually should stop workers, I quite simply don't know. However, my long TvP games vs BigBalls have convinced me that:

a) I build too many scvs late game
b) BigBals is closer to the right amount


does bigballs make too few or could he be better with even less? We don't know (yet)


i still think you should upload that rep
if you guys could use google and post direct links to the maphacks here it would be greatly appreciated. - Nazgul
exalted
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States3612 Posts
November 14 2004 09:21 GMT
#80
Sundance you are very wrong. Don't limit what pros can do with your own limitations that you set for yourself. About scvs, I still make too much and I do feel that while at low levels making scvs must be STRESSED and stressed again, I made myself make scvs so much that in the late(r) game I am weakened by it. However, it is CRUCIAL that you have no scv holes in the beginning game unless you are going for a risk strategy otherwise you are just giving your opponent a quick advantage. Usually, skipping an scv to get a building ~40-50 mins faster is just not worth it at all, I used to do that a lot when I started playing and it wasn't until later I realized why I could only 3-4 fac in the midgame tvp
too easy
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