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On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote: Howdy TL, there was a TvP Terran point of view thread that became 32 pages of constant brainstorming that turned into whining about HTs Warp-ins and other things and I suggested going Mech and a lot of people demanded replays of me going Mech so here I have 10 games of me Meching and winning against Toss. Things to note: I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol. Also the replay against jade a 2200 toss made me giggle. Raiznevil vs ANgelCCRaiznevil vs jadeRaiznevil vs JoGoRaiznevil vs OrangeApplesRaiznevil vs panicRaiznevil vs ReptileRaiznevil vs RushSecondRaiznevil vs SayamRaiznevil vs StratosRaiznevil vs TylerLarsonIn all these replays I do a 1 Rax reactor expand because I had this gut feeling for a long time that it defended against the 4 gate strategy. Turns out if done properly there is a key timing at roughly the 6:30 to 7 minute mark where even just a chronoed 3 gate pressure can bust you before you expand and get up the bunkers. SO putting a bunker down at the 6 minute mark will keep you safe from the 4 gate. Had to find that out the hard way myself. You will unfortunately be contained until you get 1 or 2 tanks with siege out but Meh he 4 gated so expanding a lil late won't hurt anyways. Also this is just the opening I do there's probably numerous ways to go about opening like a Siege expand or 2 fact i just prefer the really fast expo. This is just for anyone of you players who feel bold enough to attempt this kind of strategy. Usually when I'd lose during this strat it would either be because I just did something terrible or I didn't scout VR tech switch in time or that key 6 min timing before i realized i should put down a bunker (which is the openings fault not Mech). Most of the time the trade off in the battles in all these games were extremely cost effective in my favor. Key things I aim for (but don't always achieve cuz I screwed up or something): +2 weapons upgrades on the vehicles. Tanks demolish anything armored as soon as they are in range meaning Stalkers and Collossi in particular. Immortals last a bit long but with the bunker marines and the hellions their shields don't last too long to be troublesome usually unless it's a very good Immortal/Zlot timing. Also this upgrade makes it easier to snipe HTs. Harassment with Hellions. I don't make use of this often cuz I'm not amazing but keep harassment on your mind. Also they make for the best type of scouting as well as being used for HT or Zlot hunting parties. Often I'll find a troop of Zlots away from the main army and i can just pick them off for free. Also don't start getting super super aggressive until you get you're third (unless you can find a timing I'm too dense to discover) and before being aggressive have like 7 factories, 3 barracks reactored and 3 starports reactored. Bewilders them how fast you re-mass. I know 98% of you won't ever do this kind of play even after seeing these reps cuz this is not how the pros play but this is just my kind of proof that no strategy should be completely undo-able unless maybe you're pro level because Starcraft 2 is just so much more flavorful that the basically solved BW was. There's just so many more factors to think about and use. Unfortunately I'm gunna have to go back to doin MMM now so people won't blind counter me or something on Bnet :/. lol
Excelent replays!
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phoenix + stalker immortal collossus pvp death ball would do pretty well i think. mass phoenix can drive-by lift half the tank line and they dont need to be lifted long, just long enough for everything else to melt to the death ball. tanks by themselves arent scary
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Half way through the replays and LOVING it. Couple of points though.
1. I'm wondering why you don't get a single radar in any of these games. I'm not saying rush the radar but there are plenty of spots where you can squeeze them in and it gives you great warning on drops and pushes. The real reason I mention this is because with mech / bunker play pulling scv's to repair in time against against big pushes are so key. Xel naga gives you some vision but if they pull a good flank it helps you react for a very cheap cost. Seems like the perfect compliment to the turtle / immoblity of the mech build.
2. Cloaked Ghosts. The one area I think you could benefit is ghost play. I love using ghosts and usually try to mix them into my bio armies because the production is right there. But one extra tech rax for rine upgrades and ghosts would be an awesome addition at the 2-3 base position.
I get the feeling that once they see all the tanks they need immortals which slows obs production. You pick them off with scans & turrets constantly so cloaked ghosts should have freedom to move unseen. It would make little sense for them to get photon cannons when you are going to tank push anyway. All of the above should give you free reign in ghost play.
Plus's / uses of ghosts in your buiild:
Emp: Not only does it just work great in general against toss for the normal weakening of the army. It solves some of your problems when pushing. Mobile stealth detection. Use it to nuke DT's or obs while getting up towers. If you have cloaked ghosts as spotters for your army you can micro and focus the immortals. 100 shield drop is enough to remove thier anti-tank capability. They have obvious uses against HT. I have seen a lot of archon play against you and they are all shields no hp. Double EMP rocks them in clusters. If they try to counter with void rays you can pop a group to make them run or make them easier to pick off with your vikings until you can get more reactor starports up.
Nuke: 2 nukes will kill gateways and robos. Nukes are great because when you are maxed at 200/200 you are able to keep firing off shots. Drop 2-3 cloaked ghosts in a toss base while he's dealing with your tank line and drop two nukes on his cluster production and its pretty much GG.
You can use nukes well at the front line with all that tank / rine / hellion defense.
Worker harass. 2 ghosts 1 shot probes. 2 full energy ghosts have a lot of invis time to do some worker blasting.
Auto Attack: The ghosts do 20 vs light. So in the later stages of the game they add a sizable dps boost against chargelots.
Can't wait to try your build myself.
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i think for this build the best open is the thor, or hellion drop, with the thor he cant do any kinda of rush, with the hellion fast drop, u put some pressure to the main, then it's the turn to make a transition to tank/hellion/thor or viking
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I'm loving the positivity regarding Mech in this thread, gj!
In a game where synergy between units is key I am beginning to see how Terran building upgrades compliment a mech style of play with marines in bunkers.
+1 turret range. Makes you safer against Vrays and ensures Obs can't spot for P.
+2 building armour. Makes your free* bunkers even harder to kill with low damage units (Zealot, stalker etc.) which is good because the less time the heavy hitters are shooting at your tanks the better. Affects P forts which are a good area denial structure to build after max.
+2 space in bunkers. Would probably get this second but a bunker full with 6 marines is nothing to be ignored. Now factor in that I would have multiple bunkers full as well as stim and we have a very nice static defense which shoots air too!
There appears to be a nice synergy between Mech units, the Terrans buildings and the SCV's which build your fortifications and heal your units. As Terran we should be changing the battlefield to suit our style of play. Because meching is so gas heavy we have the spare minerals to spend on buildings to compliment out stratergy. Turrets, Bunkers, Pforts, marines and Ebays all only require minerals, which we have excess of because of our sweet MULE macro mechanic.
Also get ghosts, as many as you can afford (6-10).
Oooooh I feel like double Armourys and a fast third would be clutch.
A couple of Ravens should be added too as their spells benefit form the Ebay upgrades and PDD is good for area denial from Blink Stalkers.
I also really like the idea of smashing down 3 reactor starports if you suspect a transition to Carriers. I mean Goliaths weren't really great against Carriers untill they were in greater numbers. Perhaps the same logic can be applied to their spiritual successor.
Multiple blue flame Hellion drops work wonders the longer the game goes on and the more spread out the Protoss gets. Nuke harass also brings a big banana grim to my face.
The great thing about this style is that it can be so gas heavy but that doesn't really matter because it's great at holding expansions and controling space.
These were just some ideas about synergy in the Terran army I have been mulling over. Hope we can get a Mech revolution going! Right, now I'm inspired to get home from work, dust off Avilos' old Ghost Mech guide and make a few modifications.
"Ready to roll out!"
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Thanks for these replays they are awesome! 
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I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this.
Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
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Wow, it's ServyOa. You rock, dude. Thanks for posting.
I think I see where you're coming from, but I would love to see some replays for clarification. The main parts I can't really see happening are:
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it.
Can you really completely nullify hellion drops with building placement? I'd love to see that.
On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push ... By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over.
Perhaps there are some earlier pushes you can do to prevent this situation. I'd really like to see a replay where Toss prevents pushes/hellions harass but is still able to get that baller economy up.
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it's impossible to nullify the hellion drop, because i can just drop directly on mineral field...
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I'm using mech again for a week now and my results are great: I only lost against lategame voidrays which I didn't scout. One protoss went mass immortals but he attacked with them in 1 big clump. I emped and I lost maximum 3 tanks. But: it's like servy says, if toss knows you are meching you will lose if he knows what to do.
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On December 30 2010 17:38 MUirbeqU wrote:
Immortal prism drops on tanks could end this.
Vikings are Flying Goliaths. Goliaths were used to stop Zealot Bombing. I think you get the picture.
700m/200g Dropship 
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a canon in mineral line, simcity and insta warpin shuts down hellion harass very easily, up to good players to overcome that :p
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On December 30 2010 17:13 giuocob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 17:09 ReachTheSky wrote:
One problem with mech. Its very immobile. Blink stalkers abuses these builds so easily I hope you're not suggesting blink stalkers going head-to-head against the siege tanks, because they can blink in and out all they want, but they'll still get eaten alive by tank fire. Blink stalkers as harass would be a big problem against the immobility of siege tanks, but you could probably swap out 1 or 2 of the factories for some rax to deal with any of that.
Of course a protoss would use the blink stalkers for harass to abuse the immobility of a mech army,Especially since a toss could get blink before the terran could get a decent amount of tanks. Timing is key here. and also by the way, Blinking into tanks is just stupid.
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On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:
I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this.
Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank.
But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day.
As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories.
But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players.
It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
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Regardless of how many times you attempt to explain non believers will be nonbelievers.
On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote:
I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Sure mech has its weakness but so does bio. Just because mech is weak against some things doesnt mean you can't account for these possiblities when you play.
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As a toss player, please make this viable! I want to be able to scout a T going mech then go straight for carriers, as it'll finally give them a use ^^.
Mech sounds alright, and of course it's viable; it's very annoying to see people throw the few cons of the build, as if there are any 'perfect' or 'flawless' builds that exist. The lack of spidermines do make this much more harder though :/. Call me crazy, I know this is all theory craft.. But Terran's peak of mobility in this strat is usage of hellions and perhaps dropship marines. I don't know what that can solve, but it'd be great to see Mech make a big comeback.
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On December 31 2010 04:13 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:
I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this.
Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank. But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day. As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories. But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players. It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs.
BW is a different game you cant compare them imo, mech in sc2 is weaker and protoss has alot better counters to it than in BW. Tanks did 70 + 5 damage in BW and spider mines and vultures were kickass. Also you had scanners and together with mines and vulutre roaming arround it was alot easyer to see what is going on and keep a toss at bay.
Also goliaths and tanks/vultures had the same upgrades, unlike vikings/mech in SC2 wich is HUGE this is absolutly a killer blow to mech that you need 2 sets of upgrades for your only anty air. On top of that you need starports for vikings wich is another super exspensive tech route to get  .
Anyway this is my experience why it doesnt work, if it works for you thers no reason not to do it especialy when you think its more fun.
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On December 31 2010 04:24 terranghost wrote:Regardless of how many times you attempt to explain non believers will be nonbelievers. Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 16:10 Raiznhell wrote:
I am NOT a good player by any means. I don't play very often and I'm only 1600-1700ish Diamond but everyone I play against is 1600-2400 for some reason because the matchmaking system is messed. That being said I am bad and still won against some pretty decent players so that defends the strategy and any criticisms you can note for the toss player i probably played worse so don't just be like well he didn't do this at this time because, I didn't do anything right by any good player's point of view lol.
Sure mech has its weakness but so does bio. Just because mech is weak against some things doesnt mean you can't account for these possiblities when you play.
I guess i am being misleading with this but I by no means think that Mech should be the new standard for TvP.
It's just so much easier for those abusive stim pushes to work and even if they don't and in the late game bio is weak head on against toss armies, but the ability to be everywhere at once with the drops and such and stim is too strong for the pro level not to do.
The reason I mech and am showing these is because i see a lot of low level bronze through to mid diamond calling all these strategies stupid and pointless just cuz the pros use bio and if they don't win in the first 15 minutes then all these people say it's imbalanced well no that's the sacrifice you made going bio in my eyes is that you wanted to win early but you didn't so at that point you're kind of paying the price.
Point is these low levels shouldn't be calling any strategy stupid because clearly in these replays Mech worked. Me and my opponents aren't the best players in the world but watch the replays they are definitely better players than me and i still beat them. Mech fits my slow pushing style I find my strength is in my patience not by ability to stim, kite and be up in his face. my style of slowly approaching them forces them into attacking ME on MY terms.
Bio is and always will be stronger in TvP because you never have to stay put your always moving (or should be). It's just i have more fun when i play Mech style and if i can win with it why not use it.
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On December 31 2010 04:39 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 04:13 Raiznhell wrote:On December 31 2010 01:37 4Servy wrote:
I read throug this thread and as probably one of the only ''pro'' player who used mech throughout tourneys vs toss I will have to say this.
Mech can work because most other terrans play bio so protosses dont know to respond to it, mech on ladder works fine to bc its unconventional. Now the main problem I had with mech is that as soon the protosses know your doing it you are going to lose. They just double expand after 1 gate > fe > 3gate/robo and then slam down 4 robos or starports and will just abuse the fact that you cant really push. Observers give maphack so if you decide to push just mass chrono your robos to get 1m round of immortals out and thats it.
Helion harras can ezpz be stopped with good building placement so you cant equalise your eco with protoss and that is basicly the end of it. By the time you have a 200/200 army with tanks/ghost protoss have like 25 gates and 4-5 robbos and 2 forges and will just steamrole you over. People that say that 200/200 mech beat toss ground army are mistaken really, if the immortals/collo and speedzeals are properly upgraded you will lose about 75%-80% of your army and toss just mass chronos all his production structures and runs you over after.
I do get that you're a pro and all and are overall more experienced than me and such but i have a hard time believing that is toss knows you're Meching you're dead just cuz in BW you were 90% sure as a toss player T was probably going to do a siege expand or and FD and go mass tank and vulture and yet knowing that that was going to happen the terran was still able to win using vulture/tank. But my build i do a 1 rax FE which leaves plenty of room to bunker rush or apply early pressure if i scout that he not only early expanded but double expanded. I get my 4 factories up so fast after the FE kicks in that it just seems like it'd be easy to push with the first 3-4 tanks a huge group of marines and hellions and take out his second expo. Also if protoss drops 4 robo and goes immortals that just seems super weak to an already marine/ hellion filled army that adding even 1 ghost would wreck the toss's day. As for stargate well that was the weakness of vulture tank in BW and hence you pumped out a lot of Goliaths this is why i have 3 reator starports to get a ton of vikings and in any game where i knew he was going immediately for the air tech i would probably go for starport instead of extra factories. But i dunno. ill have to get higher on the ladder and face much tougher players. It just feels like it wouldn't be as ridiculously easy to counter as said cuz in BW you knew every TvP that terran was going to turtle, FE and mass tanks(which didn't have smart fire) and despite getting shuttles, reaver dropping, dt dropping, zlot bombing, arbiters, carriers. terran could still win TvP in BW. I mean to all the player's i faced in this it should have been ridiculously obvious early early on in all the games that i was meching some of them even got observers in my base without me noticing and yet they still couldn't win. Some did if i failed at scouting and missed his VR tech switch but that's my failure not mechs. BW is a different game you cant compare them imo, mech in sc2 is weaker and protoss has alot better counters to it than in BW. Tanks did 70 + 5 damage in BW and spider mines and vultures were kickass. Also you had scanners and together with mines and vulutre roaming arround it was alot easyer to see what is going on and keep a toss at bay. Also goliaths and tanks/vultures had the same upgrades, unlike vikings/mech in SC2 wich is HUGE this is absolutly a killer blow to mech that you need 2 sets of upgrades for your only anty air. On top of that you need starports for vikings wich is another super exspensive tech route to get . Anyway this is my experience why it doesnt work, if it works for you thers no reason not to do it especialy when you think its more fun.
Nvm ignore this. you have good points. XD
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EPT
