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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
Dinner Plate Role Call: Votes not in the proper format will NOT be counted. EVERYONE is required to vote. Zebezt(2): Acid~, Spaghetticus OmniEulogy(1): Mocsta Trotske (1): Sn0_Man JacobStrangelove(1): Zebezt Acid~(0): Not Voting (5): OmniEulogy, Trotske, JacobStrangelove, Zarepath, Shz, Currently Zebezt is set so be lynched! 4 hours until lynch deadline. If I got your vote wrong, make sure to pm me. The lynch deadline is 00:00 GMT (+00:00). | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
Mocsta, I was not bluffing when I said I had a whole case against you that I was ready to pull the trigger on at the first sign of scummy behavior, so believe me - you asked for this. The case against Mocsta: Exhibit A On January 14 2013 08:13 Mocsta wrote: + Show Spoiler + Thanks forthe feedback mandalor. Remember a townie knows he is innocent. Why do u think i can post on the fly. Because im confident i am town and that my actions will speaker louder than my words. Your overly defensive and emotional case defense sits uncomfortably with me. i dont associate your reactions as a townie defense..it reads to me as a last resort post does anyone else feel this way? I.e. Too defensive and emotional to be confident in his alignment? I find this attack a bit strange coming from you, since at that point every time you had been questioned, you'd responded in an emotional, defensive manner. You want to apply to Mandalor some standards that you feel exempt of? If being too defensive and emotional is scummy behavior, then you are scum #1. Additionally, your aggression towards your detractors creates the opposite of a positive town atmosphere, so while you say you want to create that positive atmosphere, you're actually creating one where the more meek/timid players are afraid to question you. Exhibit B On January 13 2013 07:29 Mocsta wrote: So.. I say to you, that * I * will make the effort to provide rational, constructive feedback to your cases. You sound like a politician running for office. So far, you've behaved exactly like a politician and by this I mean that we have yet to see you deliver on your promise. Day 1: You had your little penis-waving contest with Oatsmaster, which took up a lot of space but was devoid of anything even remotely rational or constructive. All you did was muck up the thread with useless bullshit, which creates confusion and hinders scumhunting - ie, not town behavior. Now, certainly it takes two to tango but your posts were more frequent and also much larger than your detractors'. Both of those guys also ended up posting some things that were useful to town, something I can't say about you. In your vote post on Mandalor, you dismiss his criticism of your play : I have given my reads in spades.. he doubts my contributions, but look at his half-attempts as I list below. (My reads are via the qusetions I choose to pressure with) and the cases I choose to make. I do not put my vote lightly ever. But, at that point in time, you had made no case. All you had done was ask questions, which is neither a read, nor a case. In fact, it's a pretty good scum strategy to ask a lot of inconsequential questions because it diverts attention from real problems, such as the fact that despite being the most active player, you had not made a single valid case yet. Your case on Mandalor itself was weak at best, and included several points which were not attacking his play, but defending your own. Rather, attacking his play through defending your own, essentially saying: "he said this about me but it's not true, therefore he is scum". In other words, ad hominem - a tactic which you tried on me with less success. And then this: On January 14 2013 12:13 Mocsta wrote: @Oatsmaster My vote is sticking on La Guerta. I cant let it go that he lied. it is punishable by lynch. May I ask what made you to start considering zebezt.. if it was the post from Acid, did you see my reply to him here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=22#425 You dismiss Oatsmaster's case which, admittedly thin, was based on mine which was not thin and very much founded in analysis. You willingly disregard rational, constructive feedback in order to pursue an emotional case (you can't "let it go" that he lied). And yes, we've all read the post you linked, it contains a heartfelt defense of your own case - even though I wasn't even attacking you - and doesn't address the issue of Zebezt at all. Rather, you are dismissing my case because you don't like the fact that I questioned you. That's strike three on the ad-homs. Finally, you seem to be able to "let it go" that laguerta lied, on a whim, a few minutes before the lynch deadline. You revert to an older read based on nothing at all. You're sheeping glurio, of all people, giving no argument for the switch and there is simply not an ounce of town in this play. If you were sure that Mandalor was guilty, why didn't you push harder for his vote? If you were sure that Laguerta was guilty, why didn't you stay on the vote? If your vote - your biggest power as a townie - is so easily swayed by a two-line post from a lurker, why are you valuable as town? If you are scum, then well played. You managed to lynch a townie, and immediately after you were like "OH FUCK" and then you played your little victim card, asking us to ask the questions we needed to ask. Yet, when those questions were asked, you again reacted defensively and emotionally. So now, I'm asking those questions again and I will require some straight answers and no more of your ring-around-the-rosies talk. Don't waste your time attacking me, don't bother with the emotional pleas, just answer the questions. The more you try to distract us from constructive discourse with useless bullshit, the more scummy you appear. Night 1: First you invite us to question you because you dun goofed, then you proceed to attack the person questioning you. Again. This is a disturbing pattern. My quest for rationality in your posts has so far turned up nothing but emotions. Then in this post : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=29#569 You emphasize that our priority should not to confirm town but to hunt scum. You then go on to share your biggest town-read. You also share your biggest scum read, and you back it up with quotes that don't really hold up to scrutiny, as we've seen earlier in the day. Of course, it's harder to make a case when you know your opponent is town... Day 2: Interesting that you call zarepath out for giving a town read on Oatsmaster, when you did the same thing yourself. Even more interesting is the case you make on OE. I will need a separate exhibit to take it apart piece by piece, but in one word, it's bullshit. It's all speculation, association before flip, wild conspiracy theories. If you are town, then you should be pushing for your strongest scum read backed up with evidence, not conjecture. If you think OE is scum by association with laguerta, you should lynch laguerta first. Too bad for his replacement if he doesn't get to play, he doesn't get a free pass. Exhibit C On January 13 2013 20:39 Mocsta wrote: TL;DR Stay on one target, push them till you are satisfied... In the words of Santa Wright: "Ho-ho-hold it!" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=18#358 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=21#414 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=25#485 At what point exactly during this clusterfuck were you satisfied? Can you show me how you pressured each of your targets and how it led you to a rational, informed decision? Those are things that you promised to do and failed to deliver on. Again, in your own words: "Our actions speak louder than our words." Do you know what your actions say? They say that you are scum. With this most recent development of your bullshit case on OE, it makes sense that you were chosen by the scum team due to your town meta, which has been defended a few times, to create confusion and dissent amidst the town. Exhibit D Now we get to "the bomb" as you would no doubt call it. The mother of all useless, bloated posts which does nothing but waste our time and distract us from true scumhunting. On January 17 2013 00:27 Mocsta wrote: Mocsta: Day 2 - Prime Lynch Candidate PREFACE:After zarepath raised solid points to clear him for Day 2, I had to go back to the chaos of Day 1. I was certain scum was responsible, or at least sowed the seeds for what eventuated. From my perspective I identify/signify three key points to the overall chaos:
To regurgitate the outcome of this chaos. + Show Spoiler + (1) On January 14 2013 08:26 Stutters695 wrote: A widely dispersed vote. Then Oats requests consolidation.bringaniga (1) - shz, Acid~ (1) - Mocsta (0) - Oatsmaster (0) - Sn0 Man (2) - shz (1) - OmniEulogy Laguerta (1) - Mandalor Mandalor (2) - Mocsta, Oatsmaster zebezt (1) - Acid~ No-Lynch (1) - Laguerta Not Voting - everyone else On January 14 2013 10:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok guys, its less than 3 hours to lynch, we NEED to consolidate. If you think the leading candidate which is laguerta is scummy, vote for him. If you think someone else is scummier, PUSH FOR THEIR LYNCH. This leads to (2) On January 14 2013 11:59 cDgCorazon wrote: For 13 players, 7 votes on 1 target is a consolidated vote. Especially as everyone else held 1 vote.Laguerta (7) - Mandalor, OmniEulogy, Glurio, Shz, Oatsmaster, Mocsta, Zarepath Sn0_Man (1) - Zebezt, Mandalor (1) - Trotske, zebezt (1) - Acid~ Mocsta (1) - Sn0_Man, bringaniga (0) - Oatsmaster (0) - shz (0) - Acid~ (0) - No-Lynch (1) - Laguerta SOMEHOW this turns into: (3) On January 14 2013 12:56 thrawn2112 wrote: Laguerta (3) - Mandalor, Shz, Mocsta, zebezt (2) - Acid~, Oatsmaster Mandalor (2) - Trotske, glurio, Oatsmaster (2) - zarepath, OmniEuology, Sn0_Man (1) - Zebezt, Mocsta (1) - Sn0_Man, bringaniga (0) - shz (0) - Acid~ (0) - No-Lynch (1) - Laguerta I don't know if the chaos was pre-mediated (After all you can not predict what lurkers will do OR who they will vote), but I think mafia took full advantage of the chaos. At the end of the Day1, there are THREE players with 2 votes, and 1 player lynched with 3 votes. Even though I ended up being the hammer, realistically, ANYBODY could have been the hammer with how it all turned out. Just for fun, I copy/pasted this introduction in Word. Word count: 570. Content: 0. Thank you for submerging us in recaps and data. These have no value without analysis. This is just bloating, giving the appearance of content while not having to actually do any work. To any lazy townie, this is impressive. Especially with the formatting. "Wow, there's a well thought-out post", should we think. But no, if we look close we can see that underneath the bolded font and bullet points, the balloon is full of air. How did we get here, and importantly, why did we end up here? This is answered in the proceeding case. Ah, finally! Answers to questions that no one cares about. I would rather see you write about who you think led us here. ACT I: The phoenix rises from the ashes - TeMiL 2.0 + Show Spoiler + (1) For those that did not play Newbie XXXIV, TeMiL was a very low post count, low quality player with an output almost identical to La Guerta. TeMiL's highlight of contribution was the following: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 00:02 TeMiL wrote: ive just make a chart with your connections. i want to know for each one your nationality and the country of residence, or maybe everyone are native from each country that TL says: TeMiL - Peru Sylencia - Australia Spaghetticus - Australia Mocsta - Australia StriX - Australia OmniEulogy - Canada jampidampi - Finland cDgCorazon - USA zarepath - USA i need to make some conclusiones with this information Suffice to say, TeMiL was defended as bad town (this included me  ). I do not know why we felt sympathetic to him, but we did. The story with TeMiL ended with him being modkilled Day2 for not voting. In fact I don't think he said a vote during Night 1 either. He ended up flipping SCUMWhy am I referring to this? Because, for what ever reason, La Guerta has been interpretted widely as "bad town" and now that I have had a clear mind to revisit the past... it resets the now. I do not think La Guerta is bad town. I think his play is akin to TeMiL and therefore is SCUM This is useless, unless TeMiL is a smurf for Laguerta or vice-versa. You can't meta a player based on another player's play, that's just nonsense. I think you know this. In fact, I know you know this because your play so far suggests that you're not a total idiot. This is blatantly scummy play now, designed to sow confusion in our minds. (2) [spoiler=Filter Analysis] This guys posts is full of fluff as indicated by: What is there to say? Literally. In the process he even lied; as he said he was against the "No-Lynch" People say zebezt or Trotske might be bad town.. well if they are the bar of high quality, La Guerta is still in the shit. I think for whatever reason, the turning point for bad town was due to this post: Again; even if zebezt/Trotske are the benchmark for quality.. La Guerta is still in the shit. This guy has done NOTHING for town, and as I stated in the preface, I think his No-Lynch vote was a major contributor to the chaos of Day 1. Further to this he outright lied. Town has no reason to do this Day 1. I had a slight problem with this already on day1, but now with the rest of your play it has become a big problem. You throw the word "lie" around, as if Laguerta had purposely deceived us in order to pursue his own scummy agenda. But that's not the case. All that his play reveals is an inconsistency between his stated intentions and his actions. If this is a scumtell, then you're the biggest scum of them all as you repeatedly did this all throughout both days of play. In fact, yours is much worse because your actions did influence other players and in turn led to the lynch of a townie. I understand I have advocated not to do this. But with the current town environment, Dire Circumstances call for Dire Measures. As I am 100% certain La Guerta is scum. If that is the case even though his posts may be useless to find associations. I think the chaos he raised will have presented an opportunistic scum to take advantage of the situation. Hence my focus for the association was related to who led/followed the band-wagon OFF La Guerta. The find is as follows... So by now you're aware that you're acting in a way that contradicts your stated intentions, an act which you deemed a lynchable offense from Laguerta, but somehow you just don't GAF anymore. All this bullshit suspense-building, this style of impending doom, this is just white noise designed to distract us from the fact that you have NOTHING. But still, all this is nothing compared to what follows. And here comes an avalanche of bullshit: ACT II - (Forced) Scum Read - The solution required to the ?problem? - INCEPTION I say ?problem? because I think the intention for La Guerta was always to be lynched Day 1. The gambit being to destroy town productivity over multiple days. As a strategy I can see validity in this. It didnt matter if he was alive or not, because he would never be productive for town. It could even be incorporated for scum to lynch La Guerta by uncovering the lie to get town cred for free. Obviously though its always better to keep up numbers, so I think mafia planted a seed (inception) they hoped someone else would develop (the idea being a luxury but not essential )... Therefore when Trotske threw this out there: I think this was the advantage scum were waiting for to receive a solution to problem that didnt really exist (i.e. save La Guerta), but would be a nice-to-have. Now, my scum read (by association) I think saw this opportunity and decided to pounce. The response to Trotske is here: (I have intentionally removed the name to remove bias when reading) I think this person setup the play and pulled the strings for La Guerta to be freed. The strings were pulled so hard, even narrow-sighted Oatsmaster was led to say this in the final heartbeats of Day 1: I think this quote summarises the state of confusion for town in general, and La Guerta uncertainty. We all know Oats is a straight shooter, so for him to be in this disarray is saying something. So, you think that the scum strategy was this complicated mishmash - for which you have absolutely not a shred of evidence, only convoluted conjectures. I have a better solution. It's called Occam's Razor. The scum strategy was to lynch a lurker that they knew was townie because LAL strategies are always good and YOU set up this possibility with your first post in the active thread: On January 12 2013 13:09 Mocsta wrote: Hi All. From other games, it seems the best 3 questions to ask are: 1) Stance on Lurkers: i.e. Do you policy lynch? 2) How do you think scum would try to get influence with us? 3) [fluff] DONT BUY A POOL. I wasted all my time today with pools and hate it ! I won't be around for the next 6 to 8 hrs (DAMN POOL!) After everybody responded positively to a lurker policy lynch, you set the plan in motion. I believe Mandalor was your first target and that you switched to Laguerta, an easy target, when Mandalor started to fight back. I believe that Omni correctly identified the situation and that you were put at an impasse by the circumstances. You could stay on Laguerta and appear scummy when he flipped town by being the deciding vote, or you could switch to Mandalor, a previous read and try to play the victim card. This is, of course, what you did and you even tried to blame me for the "confusion" you were in at lynch time. Now, again, you have put your vote on a person unlikely to put up a strong defense. You have not voted for Laguerta, because you don't know how his replacement could play. You know OE won't be here for a bit because of his computer issues, so he is the perfect target. Despite my case against Trotske, your own convictions on Laguerta, my previous case against Zebezt, you have chosen to put your vote on someone who won't be able to reply. Thus, we will be unable to generate meaningful discussion, grinding the scumhunt to a halt. I'm not even going to reply to the rest of your post, which is just more of the same bullshit. I'm not falling into your trap and distracting my attention from what needs to be done. Closing Argument If you are town, you have not helped us in any significant way. You derailed discussion on day one, lynched one of our own, cluttered the thread with your incessant emotional whining every time someone interacted with you and now you make the worst possible case you could have made. If you are scum, I want to see you hang. ##Unvote: Zebezt ##Vote: Mocsta I would like all townies to review this case and post their thoughts. If you agree with me, I want you to vote Mocsta and state your personal reasons for doing so. If you don't agree with me, I want you to point out the flaws in my reasoning and explain why your preferred target is a better choice. | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
On January 17 2013 04:57 zebezt wrote: So, for the case against Mocsta: here's the gist of it, my wife needs me so I don't have time for too much detail. At first he seemed pretty townie to me. He was nice n friendly to all and posted a lot. A LOT. The actual content in there is actually pretty useless though. His case against Omni illustrates this VERY well. A GIANT post. But he already says its an association case and that those suck... so what the hell? but there are some gems in there... he says he is 100% sure Laguerta is scum. Awesome scum slip. I'm voting Laguerta myself, but ONLY A SCUM can be 100% certain who is scum he is 100% sure Laguerta is scum, but he isn't voting for Laguerta? WTF? THIS MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL I was already surprised at how upset he got over a small hint of suspicion I had towards him, as demonstrated by the incoherence of his follow up post. + Show Spoiler + On January 15 2013 16:40 Mocsta wrote: Influential? I have been called for my play by almost everyone in this thread (lurkers and actives). I even said today I have to take a step back. Did you not read this from my prime interrogator. (1) Your are dodging others questions; people like Shz have already re-asked you the questions. I think even Mr. King of lurkers (Acid~) wasted one of his few posts to re-ask you questions. Your response: i thought I answered it all.. are you not reading the thread? (2) You then say I am influential.. as if the events of Night 1 didnt happen. Are you not reading the thread.. again? If you haven't, this is very reckless accusations to be making; something I would think only scum would be motivated to do.. (3) I was RB'd.. its not clear whether town or scum.. but as noone else has stepped up to say they were RB'd. I am going to assume for the time being it was scum. (4) The difference between you & (Shz/Myself) is.. we were considering different options for why Oats was killed. You however just assume.. if I would do it.. scum would do it.... WHOAH wait a sec.. if you were scum then of course you could speak with confidence like that. This is a huge concern to me. Please explain how this is town motivated thing to say? Why would he panic so much that he would write a post like this. Even he himself admitted this post sucked. Anyway, I think he is scum. But first the former Laguerta must die If you think Mocsta is scum, I think you should vote him now. Because if he is scum, he is much more dangerous than a lurker at this point. I understand the policy lynch and why it's "safe", I understant that you want to stick to your strongest scum read. I ask you just to review my case against Mocsta and keep an open mind for lynch option. If you are town and you are convinced Mocsta is scum, surely you see the need to consolidate on him ASAP. | ||
shz
Germany2686 Posts
Omni is definitly one of the dumbest targets to lynch today, and I can't wrap my head around why someone would make a case like that. @Acid: So you would say Mocsta is good scum, instead of crappy town? I can agree, but I'm not sure if laguerta would still be the better candidate for tonight. He should have died D1, did nothing until being modkilled, and his replacement doesn't seem to be around either, or is lurking hard. So I don't know why we shouldn't lynch him now and go after Mocsta later. But for me this depends on how Mocsta handles himself between now and lynch. | ||
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Trotske
410 Posts
On January 17 2013 00:27 Mocsta wrote: Because, for what ever reason, La Guerta has been interpretted widely as "bad town" and now that I have had a clear mind to revisit the past... it resets the now. I do not think La Guerta is bad town. I think his play is akin to TeMiL and therefore is SCUM What a crock of shit This is the silliest scum reasoning I have read. Don't you think this argument actually might work the other way around? you are seeing scum because you had a scum play like really really really bad town in another game? As I am 100% certain La Guerta is scum. If that is the case even though his posts may be useless to find associations. I think the chaos he raised will have presented an opportunistic scum to take advantage of the situation. Seems like a 180 from where you said "You have to take a RISK" most risks are not 100% sure things. I say ?problem? because I think the intention for La Guerta was always to be lynched Day 1. The gambit being to destroy town productivity over multiple days. As a strategy I can see validity in this. It didnt matter if he was alive or not, because he would never be productive for town. It could even be incorporated for scum to lynch La Guerta by uncovering the lie to get town cred for free. Obviously though its always better to keep up numbers, so I think mafia planted a seed (inception) they hoped someone else would develop (the idea being a luxury but not essential )... Therefore when Trotske threw this out there: I think this was the advantage scum were waiting for to receive a solution to problem that didnt really exist (i.e. save La Guerta), but would be a nice-to-have. so the plan was to start a bus for no reason other than town cred right away? that seems a little far fetched. Now, my scum read (by association) I think saw this opportunity and decided to pounce. The response to Trotske is here: (I have intentionally removed the name to remove bias when reading) I think this person setup the play and pulled the strings for La Guerta to be freed. The strings were pulled so hard, even narrow-sighted Oatsmaster was led to say this in the final heartbeats of Day 1: I think this quote summarises the state of confusion for town in general, and La Guerta uncertainty. We all know Oats is a straight shooter, so for him to be in this disarray is saying something. + Show Spoiler [Delving Deeper] + The unnamed person in the quote above is OmniEulogy (1) I have to put it out there, every game with OmniEulogy, I have pushed for his lynch at some stage in the game. I rate OmniEulogy high enough to be a scum mastermind. Heck last game he even talked about wanting to play scum that way - something very rare for newbies. Therefore I think he took full advantage of the thread due to Trotske's opening about La Guerta being bad town. (2) With this information I decided to read through OmniEulogy filter. These are the snippets I find interesting. His filter starts off rational, trying to be a voice of reason. I think this is not hard for a scum or mafia to do however (its easy enough to copy/paste other posts) its about whether you follow through. e.g. of Omni sound reassoning posts + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 03:55 OmniEulogy wrote: @Bringaniga you are going to make this game enjoyable I can tell. I already enjoy your posts and I look forward to more. lol Anyway just to touch on what has happened so far, I agree with Oats opinion on the lurkers, not on how Mocsta asked the question. If anybody really said yes/no to that question they would be pressured for it, possibly used as a reason to be voted on later in D1. It would be a silly thing for town to do, almost as silly as not answering the questions. I think having people explain the reasoning behind their votes is fantastic but I don't think it goes far enough, I believe we should go through each others cases and not only agree/disagree but see if we can prove the case right or wrong ourselves while waiting for the defense of the person being accused. (it is important to wait for them to defend themselves first, otherwise we give them an escape with no effort on their part) I know this is done to some degree each time a case is made but in both of my last games we've made the mistake of lynching townies due to their arguments not standing up to one persons case. I'm hoping we can avoid that if everybody weighs in with not only their own case but their thoughts on the other cases as well. It's a lot of extra effort but I believe it's a good way to discuss scum reads with each other and keep conversation strongly focused on scum hunting. I've got an event going on in roughly 4~ hours and I'll be busy for most of the night (cleaning up the house for it right now) so I'll periodically check in and hopefully be able to make some cases by the end of the night. Also if we could have Mandalor, Shz, Acid, Glurio, and Bringaniga answer at least one of the questions asked it would be nice. Let us know you are alive guys  + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 18:47 OmniEulogy wrote: Thanks Mocsta and yeah, I share your opinion on reads for people. I assume everybody is scum and let them prove that they are town. I know I am town, this isn't a soft call, I am a townie. I know I'll have to prove it, and although my first medium sized post is a null read, I hope that with time and my future actions it will prove to everybody that I am town because I'm hoping that if we use my advice we will be able to hunt and catch scum easier. I have a soft town read on you because I know your meta, and I'm not sure if you would be as comfortable as you normally are leading conversation early on as scum and talking about your pool. Some people get very nervous when they are scum. We've had several in our games who didn't post as much as they normally do. On the other side we have Oats as an example who posts an average amount in both roles. However his play style (now that I've read through his filter for XXXII) changes a little. Experience changes everything though but there are some similarities between his XXXII game and what he has done this time, and very little in his other games that I read through. Again not enough for me to vote for him but it's not a good sign either. I'm hoping some of our lurkers can weigh in, and if Bringaniga doesn't come up with anything by the lynch deadline, my current thoughts of him will turn to scum pretending to be active and I'll be pushing for his lynching over the current Oats for sure. He then enters the fray and tries to break up Me and Oatsmaster (Shz did too)... I actually read this as null Last game, scum tried to break up Me and Spaghetticus.. its actually an easy way to get town cred, so the action in itself does not indicate town motives (even though it helps town). + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2013 22:22 OmniEulogy wrote: Alright, I just got a call in from work ##Vote: Acid~ This is NOT what I intended to do. Under normal circumstances I would have put this at the end of my case on who ever I would have made it on. I might have to work a double shift and if I do, I won't be back in time, I don't want my random vote to be a deciding factor in a lynch and therefore have effectively wasted my vote. I do have access to a computer but on the off chance I can't log in on it I had to vote to make sure I wasn't going to be modkilled. I probably wont have to work the double but just in case. Sorry about this guys. So far Omni play has been safe. Nothing indicates he is scum; but nothing is screaming pro-town either. I do notice in general his approach is a bit different. But that is because I have played 2 games in a row with him. The question is.. is he different intentionally due to improving town game... or because he finally rolled scum. Continuing On He does a defense on Mandalor (I dont remember anyone else but Omni saying it was wrong; even Oatsmaster at one stage voted Mandalor - I *think* after my case too).. As a scum OmniEulogy.. of course he can defend Mandalor, he KNOWS he is town. Read: slightly scum (because no1 else called me out of line for the case) He then swaps to Shz, who was flying under the radar. Again an easy vote to do, with no real repercussions. Read: Null Things get interesting when La Guerta is caught in the lie. OmniEulogy is the one who pounces on this immediately (conveniently) On January 14 2013 09:06 OmniEulogy wrote: ##Vote: Laguerta He's already lied, has not contributed at all and now that I think about it, he goes from calling Bringaniga town, to voting on him with no posts between the two. He didn't answer my questions to why he voted for him OR why we shouldn't lynch him very well at all... Anybody have any reasons for why we shouldn't lynch him? I think this was a way to do two objectives (1) Create disarray in town atmosphere due to La Guerta weirdness & (2) Establish town cred for OmniEulogy picking scum first round.. a rare feat to achieve. From here Oatsmaster asked to consolidate votes, and we ended up with 7 votes on La Guerta, an essential certainty for lynch. The Long-Con On January 14 2013 07:03 OmniEulogy wrote: ugh I can't tell if that's just brutal honesty or extremely scummy. @Laguerta why should we NOT vote to lynch you in 2 hours? This is where I think OmniEulogy sowed the seeds for someone like Trotske or whoever to develop further. and indeed Trotske did. In hindsight with the Acid~ case, you could even contest Trotske is mafia and used this seed to develop the idea for the rest of town. What eventuated was Inception.,. i.e. Omni/zarepath/Oats started discussing the concept that La Guerta was bad town, and then used the excuse of "no opposition to the lynch" to justify moving off La Guerta. I treat OmniEulogy as the instigator for this entire action based on the above. I don't think they knew it was guaranteed to happen but were to prepared to adapt with it on the fly. Then here is some really nice interplay .. seeing that there is uncertainty with La Guerta On January 14 2013 10:35 OmniEulogy wrote: If Laguerta is scum, I must admit there is a lack of anybody trying to save him... would scum bus themselves D1? That's suicidal. The fact that nobody has even tried to push strongly for another lynch worries me a little bit... This only creates more uncertainty in the chaotic environment. Now that the bait has taken off.. Omni is trying really hard to hook the fish and int he process save La Guerta. On January 14 2013 12:25 OmniEulogy wrote: Honestly he has just as good a chance as flipping scum as Laguerta imo. The only difference is that I can't just put Zebezt in the "bad townie" category for every single post he's made. On January 14 2013 12:29 OmniEulogy wrote: I think the bigger thing at the moment is that even if the three of us, Mocsta, Oats, and myself all switch to another person who already has a vote on them, it won't be enough to stop Laguerta from being lynched. I can only see this as Mafia being FINE with Laguerta being lynched today. If we don't have another person on the Laguerta wagon active I think we might be lynching him no matter what. More rallying for people to get off La Guerta. Now that he has achieved his goal and people are dispersed again (as indicated in the Preface).. he turns on the guy he has been working with this whole time... On January 14 2013 12:56 OmniEulogy wrote: ##Vote: Oatsmaster I don't like the constant vote jumping. Or pulling off Laguerta after jumping around so much. It makes me think you know who the townies are and have been testing to see which wagon sticks. That confidence in nailing Zebezt is bothering me too... I'm biased with my thinking past thing point. Don't wanna screw with anybody else I'll explain it after the lynch. This is such a clever vote. He set up Oats to do the vote jumping, and then votes for him.. clearing him of any direct association to LA Guerta at that point in time (including flipping). He then writes a massive post on Oats, again detailing the vote jumping that him and Oats worked together on. To me, oats was screaming town by the end of Day 1.. i even wrote this in my last will to leave him alone... why would scum go out of their way to pressure so many targets? They wouldnt, its too risky... I think Omni achieved more from teh long-con than they imagined all due to persistance. Look at the contributions post Day 1.. He follows up on Oats once or twice (again.. screaming town.. why would you do this).. and then doesnt post anymore. He has stated real life problems, I wont treat that as not true... but regardless.. the contributions in Night1 were useless. Conveniently when I am in the firing range.. all he does is perturb Oats !! In Summary.. the concept to free La Guerta resulted in:
Summary: My scum read (open Delving deeper to find out name)
In short, I think scum used La Guerta to create a chaotic environment.. and took a chance with inception.. and managed to save La Guerta to keep numbers healthy (even though it was not a required part of the plan) I feel like your main case on onmi would be a lot stronger if you just didn't include the parts about laguerta being scum that feels like it is reaching. The onmi and oats thing was a very interesting catch I will look into both of there filters to see what the vote switching was about but that might take some more time and I want to post this up for other people to read I will make sure to have it done before the vote. | ||
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Trotske
410 Posts
On January 16 2013 17:49 Acid~ wrote: The case against Trotske Exhibit A Emphasis mine. Yes, we want people to post but we should also call them out whenever they post something scummy and/or useless, because that is the basis of scumhunting. If we never attack anyone, then we're all just a bunch of carebears waiting around for the mafia to assassinate us all. This post alone from Trotske is not enough for a scum read, but it makes me suspicious. The last sentence especially. You think posting fluff is just as bad as not posting? Good, show us your content. What content, you ask? Yes, my point exactly. Exhibit B Emphasis mine. Talk about low standards. Prior to this post you had done no scumhunting, had posted no analysis of any kind - in fact the only posting you had done was defending Mocsta against Sn0_Man and complaining about bringaniga's style of posting. I feel this is a good place to remind everyone that Mandalor was the first person to attack Trotske on his low-quality posting. Answering questions politely is not scumhunting. While your case on Sn0_Man isn't completely baseless, it's also very thin and since you seem hellbent on hanging a lurker, well there were other lurkers to look at. What I get from this is that you don't care who you lynch, so you pick an easy target: given how he attacked Mocsta, who still had a lot of town cred at the time, no one would be rushing to defend Sn0_Man. He was also not there to defend himself. Or I thought lynching a lurker who was scummy at the same time was a very good choice. And why did you say I didn't care who I lynched I'm the only person who was actively saying that laguerta was a townie and not going to the person with 7 votes on them... Please also note that end of that post where I say it may change if he posts more aka I'd still rather lynch the real lurkers. Translation from scum to English: "It's so hard to pick which of these townies to falsely accuse, maybe I'll just wait and see if my Sn0 vote gets any traction, if not I'll just pick an easier target." You also conveniently forget to mention laguerta, the worst of them all, in your "professional lurkers" list. first off after my sn0 vote I didn't pick an easy target I picked manalor who at the time didn't exactly have everyone's support behind the lynch. Second I also Thought and still do that Laguerta was a bad townie who didn't really want to play. Exhibit C Emphasis mine again in the quotes, to demonstrate my previous claim. The vote on Sn0 gets no traction, so again he sheeps Mocsta. This is like Christmas for scum because he can safely attack Mandalor (who, let me remind you, had posted his own suspicions about Trotske) by piggybacking on Mocsta's case without having to do any work. Or I voted for the person who I thought was trying to get a free kill on a bad townie and on whom a case had already been built by someone else that I thought was a pretty good start to a confirmed scum add these together and mandalor was look pretty scummy to me. his case in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 00:44 Mocsta wrote: Guys.. im going to bed. See you in 8 hrs, hopefully we have a few more pages to read through by then!! Please keep up the discussions. Now that I have unvoted, I am uncertain of where my vote should go. I will have a re-think when I wake up (4hrs before lynch).But below details my current thoughts before sleep (and its been a REALLY long day for me) The majority of us have been fixated on looking for tells in active players (yes, this includes myself).. why.. because he have nothing to read in the lurkers posts so we just cannibalize each other. History tells us, lynching active people Day 1 usually is town. I haven't managed to lynch scum Day1 yet, but, i haven't given up this game. I think our best way to succeed is go for the non-contributors. seriously.. 36hrs and minimal posts is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Some of us are active in our own ways; but posting at least shows interest; which is more of a read than I can give for a hardcore lurker. I think for the time being, my vote will go on ##Vote: Sn0_Man Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615&user=287497 Why?
Exhibit D What is with this 180 now? You are now openly and directly attacking a player for wanting to lynch a lurker. Even though you had spent the whole of day1 arguing in favor of lynching a lurker. Suddenly, this lurker is not good enough for some reason? Exhibit E You FoS these players because they: 1. Are too insistent on wanting to lynch lurkers. 2. Post no useful content. If those are your criteria, I think you should start fingering yourself. Additionally, the insistence on wanting other players' opinions before you actually turn those fingers into votes reads to me like you don't want to pressure and you definitely don't want to commit to a lynch before you're sure you can get traction to kill another innocent. Closing argument At this point, I still have to review Zebezt's case with a fresh look, so I'm not taking my vote off him and onto Trotske just yet. However, Trotske seems scummy as hell to me and I want his case to be discussed. you make some interesting points but all it really boils down to is that I haven't been super active which as much as I hate it is undeniable. I hope I have given some better perspective into the exhibits and why some of them aren't near as scummy as you made them out to be. | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
On January 17 2013 05:55 shz wrote: I would still like to have an answer why the fuck does he not want to lynch laguerta if he is so sure. Why the giant (format wise mess of a) association case instead of voting the one who is associated. That does not make sense, and with Acids case, which does make kinda sense, I think now would be the time for some actual defense and answering of open questions. Omni is definitly one of the dumbest targets to lynch today, and I can't wrap my head around why someone would make a case like that. @Acid: So you would say Mocsta is good scum, instead of crappy town? I can agree, but I'm not sure if laguerta would still be the better candidate for tonight. He should have died D1, did nothing until being modkilled, and his replacement doesn't seem to be around either, or is lurking hard. So I don't know why we shouldn't lynch him now and go after Mocsta later. But for me this depends on how Mocsta handles himself between now and lynch. Well, let's take the best case scenario where both Laguerta and Mocsta are scum. In this case, we should want to lynch Mocsta first because his play style is disruptive to town and will only get more disruptive as town numbers dwindle. I'm all for policy-lynching lurkers, but not when we have great scum reads. Especially an active scum who spreads dissent and confusion amongst town. Now, let's take the worst case scenario where they are both town and we still have to lynch one of them. We should lynch Mocsta because he isn't useful to town. Remember, a townie's greatest power is his vote and look at how he is using his vote. One mislynch, and now Omni. I would argue this is worse than a no-vote at this point. In the other cases, where Mocsta is scum and Laguerta is town, obviously we want to lynch Mocsta. The only case where we want to lynch Laguerta instead is the final case where Laguerta is scum and Mocsta is town. This is why I want players to review my case, because the only way I will advocate another lynch at this point is if we have a strong read on another scum and stronger reason to believe Mocsta is town. Also, the read I have on Laguerta is a lazy/busy guy who got bored of playing before the game started. Not involved in the game. Now I don't play on forums a lot, but in TT games this happens often with veteran players who roll vanilla. Something to think about. | ||
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zebezt
185 Posts
look at this logically. If Mocsta is scum are you are convinced (and I'm pretty sold on it too) than why would he switch votes from Laguerta to Mand. The situation at this vote count http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=24#480 was such that Laguerta was to die. If Mocsta is scum and Laguerta is not, why would Mocsta switch? It only puts him in the center of attention, which is what scum usually does not want. The situation where both are scum does not seem unreasonable. Mocsta got on the Laguerta bus when Laguerta had a big vote lead already. Then when he saw a chance to free his fellow scum he did. The only choice he had was Mand, he had recently defended me and Oats of the people that had 2 votes as well. The situation where Laguerta is scum and Mocsta is not would also be logical with this voting scenario. Therefore Laguerta is a more sure scum than Mocsta. If Laguerta flips scum we are then more sure about Mocsta and can vote him off the next day. | ||
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Trotske
410 Posts
I feel like mocsta is trying to make a case up out of very thin air. "To me, oats was screaming town by the end of Day 1.. i even wrote this in my last will to leave him alone... why would scum go out of their way to pressure so many targets? They wouldnt, its too risky... I think Omni achieved more from teh long-con than they imagined all due to persistance." I also feel that this part of the post seems scummy to me, mocsta keeps telling everyone why he is obviously town instead of trying to figure out who is scum. This and his lack of any decent argument for the cases he has put up force me to conclude he is the scummiest person in the thread right now. ##Vote Mocsta | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Firstly, whether you believe me, I am town. But I know from past experience these claims last minute are always ignored. I have not had a full chance to review the cases against me.. but I have seen a few comments saying my summary of the chaos is ?wrong? and that OmniEulogy can't be scum. Well whether you OmniEulogy is correct, Im sure on La Guerta, and I thought the points behind the chaos were correct. ##unvote: OmniEulogy Its 2hrs to lynch time, and I with transport I have 10min of computer time before the lynch.. so what im saying is, I can read the cases, but will not have a genuine opportunity to defend. You are free to take that as bullshit if you want but it is 5:53am right now. Your call. Therefore, as it seems I am going down, I am thinking of what I can say to best help town. i still think La Guerta is scum... most of you werent in the last game, however my reasoning actually does make sense. ironically I think OmniEulogy would agree if he was here to comment. I would have preferred to question him first before voting ( La Guerta), I think that is a courtesy that applies to anyone. In my post i did say La Guerta is my prime read, and needs to pressure heavily. How can we do this when he gets added in 6hrs before lynch and has to read the thread? So please night 1, please pressure the FUCK out of La Guerta. If the consensus is that my contributions are minimal, at least my flip should give the incentive you need. So lead with a vote, make him work to prove himself to you. I said Trotske case before looked solid, and he is even around for my inception concept. I am going to put my vote his way; I also like how he has barely contributed and then kicks me in the guts when everyone else does.(A first from him this game.. but at a time when his balls are on the line) I usually attribute that to scum play. P.S. look how heavily he defends La Guerta in my case..he even adds. I think your case on Omni might be stronger if you didnt vote La Guerta. The general feedback I got was that there was no case on Omni.. so this is an interesting comment. This guy has gone out of this way to protect La Guerta.. even now in Day 2.. Maybe I was wrong with Omni.. but for this type of protection, there must be a relationship.I cant make sense of it any other way. ##Vote: Trotske | ||
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
##Vote: Trotske | ||
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zebezt
185 Posts
says again he is sure on Laguerta and votes someone else | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On January 17 2013 06:57 Mocsta wrote: This guy has gone out of this way to protect La Guerta.. even now in Day 2.. Maybe I was wrong with Omni.. but for this type of protection, there must be a relationship.I cant make sense of it any other way. Agreed, and Day 1 I thought they might both be scum. Another option is that they are masoned together... On the other hand, the coordination of this sudden jump-on-mocsta train reeks of scum QT planning. Obviously its not certain, but I'm going to examine the circumstances very carefully. Which sucks because I had a pretty hard town read on Acid (probably because he's always had it out for Moc rofl). If nothing else, I still support the theory behind LAL enough to look at lynching laguerta (okay his mute replacement) over Mocsta. @Trotske at least you are posting. And really, your posts are starting to change my mind. I so wanted to lynch you. @Mocsta that last post sounded desperate as hell, although admittedly town don't want to be lynched either. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
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Trotske
410 Posts
On January 17 2013 06:57 Mocsta wrote: I said Trotske case before looked solid, and he is even around for my inception concept. I am going to put my vote his way; I also like how he has barely contributed and then kicks me in the guts when everyone else does.(A first from him this game.. but at a time when his balls are on the line) I usually attribute that to scum play. P.S. look how heavily he defends La Guerta in my case..he even adds. I think your case on Omni might be stronger if you didnt vote La Guerta. The general feedback I got was that there was no case on Omni.. so this is an interesting comment. This guy has gone out of this way to protect La Guerta.. even now in Day 2.. Maybe I was wrong with Omni.. but for this type of protection, there must be a relationship.I cant make sense of it any other way. ##Vote: Trotske You misquoted me "I feel like your main case on onmi would be a lot stronger if you just didn't include the parts about laguerta being scum that feels like it is reaching." was the quote nothing about your voting habits. OFC I'm going to defend someone I think is town, is that so hard to understand? I must have missed some really damning evidence on laguerta because what I have seen reeks of bad town not scum. | ||
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Trotske
410 Posts
On January 17 2013 07:11 cDgCorazon wrote: Dinner Plate Role Call: Votes not in the proper format will NOT be counted. EVERYONE is required to vote. Mocsta (2): Acid~, Trotske Trotske (2): Zarepath, Mocsta Zebezt(1): Spaghetticus, Trotske (1): Sn0_Man JacobStrangelove(1): Zebezt OmniEulogy(0): Acid~(0): Not Voting (3): OmniEulogy, JacobStrangelove, Shz, Currently Mocsta is set to be lynched! 2 hours until lynch deadline. If I got your vote wrong, make sure to pm me. The lynch deadline is 00:00 GMT (+00:00). Why do I have two separate places? | ||
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shz
Germany2686 Posts
I will stick with laguerta for now. I think he did a great job of either causing confusion in this town, or at playing bad. I hope it's the former. As long Jacob does'nt participate at all, I see no value in keeping him around. I'm not completly sold on Mocsta, but that doesn't I see him as town. ##Vote: JacobStrangelove Please participate in some way before you die, maybe you can explain what the fuck laguertas play was and defend yourself (even if you weren't the one doing this shit). If not, I'll keep my vote on you. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
Dinner Plate Role Call: Being Able To Count Edition! Votes not in the proper format will NOT be counted. EVERYONE is required to vote. Trotske (3): Zarepath, Mocsta, Sn0_Man Mocsta (2): Acid~, Trotske JacobStrangelove (2): Zebezt, Shz Zebezt (1): Spaghetticus, OmniEulogy (0): Acid~ (0): Not Voting (2): OmniEulogy, JacobStrangelove Currently Trotske is set to be lynched! 1 hour 40 minutes until lynch deadline. If I got your vote wrong, make sure to pm me. The lynch deadline is 00:00 GMT (+00:00). | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
This looks weird. It is only because I don't wan't the timing of the votes to seal a Trotske lynch over a potentially more deserving (yet). I still intend on voting for Trotske unless something can change my mind. I will continue to reread cases etc for the next hour and a half. | ||
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Trotske
410 Posts
On January 17 2013 07:20 shz wrote: Are you kidding me Mocsta? How the fuck can't you still not vote for laguerta/Jacob? I will stick with laguerta for now. I think he did a great job of either causing confusion in this town, or at playing bad. I hope it's the former. As long Jacob does'nt participate at all, I see no value in keeping him around. I'm not completly sold on Mocsta, but that doesn't I see him as town. ##Vote: JacobStrangelove Please participate in some way before you die, maybe you can explain what the fuck laguertas play was and defend yourself (even if you weren't the one doing this shit). If not, I'll keep my vote on you. Between me and Acid which points do you not think are good enough for you to vote him as scum? | ||
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