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Some very good reasons for nerfing the Starbow photon canon:
Their stats in hit points. Starbow is much more similar to BW than SC2. The photon canon in BW was 100 HP and 100 shield. In SC2 it is 150/150. This is fine since armies in SC2 tends to be bigger (no in total, but in one spot) and there is less defenders advantage. In Starbow, however, skrimishes with small "task forces" is even more common than in BW imo. And the defenders advantage is strong. Having stronger canons in Starbow by default than BW makes no sense. Especially since you can chorno them as well.
Maybe nerifing HP and do BW style might be the way to go though....
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Gonna be online later tonight as well, after LCS. Last game is starting soon so... anything from 30-90 minutes from now x)
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 23 2013 02:33 Xiphias wrote:
Maybe nerifing HP and do BW style might be the way to go though....
i think better nerf attack if you want to, simply because attack affect drops killing and hp affects holding pushes (eg. vs zerg)
@zealot charge
i still dont get the point of new charge, since i use zealots only as meatshield only, but if u nerfed stalkers, dont nerf zealots stats at least.
and some bugs:
@reaver
1) what is new with splash?
2) make reavers' scarabs shows as carriers' interceptros pls
3) make reavers show their reloading as in tanks (in weapon icon)
@ghost:
1) move cloak to C
2) look closely at Shock, just because currently i dont see any advantages in using shock instead of Nerve jammer or EMP, especially with ghost poor attacking (2 ghosts cant kill a single hydralisk)
Ghosts sounds unusable for me, they have awful attack, and 1 useless spell
@viper
1) havent noticed 1sec stun with abduct, or tooltip is wrong?
2) add duration indicator to creeper
@sentinel
1) cloaked sentinel are buggy (ultra settings)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DXYGKWF.png)
2) add duration indicator to null ward (both setup and lasting)
3) safeguard make aoe indicator reflect real aoe
Duration indicator is that grey bar under unit life 
@stimpack
hotkey problems i noted above
@scourge
seems their spash dont touch interceptors, and they tend to die 2-3 scourge for each interceptor (15 scourge died to 1 carrier, leaving 1 interceptor alive :D )
@queens
queen limit i noted above
@zerg buildings
hotkeyssss
@unit tester
u cant remove units in stasis :D
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@Charge
I will think some more of this. I personally think it is more interesting to watch and play Hydras vs Zealots fights now. Zealots use Charge, capture the Hydras, deal some damage, become slowed again, the Hydras get some free shots, Zealots use Charge again, capture them, become slow, Hydra uses the moment to deal some more damage etc.
Just played some games with it and it felt good.
BUT of course everything is not about just what I feel. If other player just finds it annoying, or bad for other reasons, then I will of course reconsider it. But I want to give it some more time. Any other players who has something to say about it?
Replays of PvZ with "fun" Zealot Charge action:
http://drop.sc/345449
http://drop.sc/345450
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Tomorrow I will get a new patch up. I will also make a post over the state of and the future of Starbow.
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@Lurkers
Just gonna drop this before I am off to bed.
One consequence of the recent nerf to the Stalker has made Lurkers much stronger vs Protoss.
I have seen it in many games recently: When Zerg get a decent number of Lurkers, Protoss can not really engage it at all. The Lurkers just wreck everything...
Of course, units who sacrifice mobility shall be sronger than a mobile army in that area.
So it is good that Lurkers + Tanks are strong when sieged or burrowed.
Just not overwhelmingly good...
In BW, we saw this general relationship:
Zealots > Hydras
Hydras > Dragoons
Lurkers > Zealots
Dragoons > Lurkers
Now we have: Lurkers > Zealots, Stalkers.
I do not think we need to do a major rework of anything. Just tweak the stats:
Change Lurker cost?
Change Lurker supply?
Change Lurker DPS? (Not as high damage vs armored units?)
Change Lurker life?
Change Lurker speed?
Or make the Sentinel useful when fighting vs Lurkers...
Any ideas?
Have anyone else thought the same thing about Lurkers in PvZ?
Or you think they are too weak?
Is there a balance "problem" with them in ZvT too?
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Russian Federation216 Posts
consider buff protoss because u revcently heavily changed stalkers and zealots and lurkers were ok for a while
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Making Sentinels counter (not too hard) lurkers might be the way to go. Protoss has not got a serious need for the sentinel until now it seems
This was me and Dec's problem with the nullifier as well. There was not real hole on protoss. Their units were so versitile that the nullifier could not really add anything without overlapping with something that was already there. If protoss now has a real weakness, then the new unit can fill a real need
How to make them counter lurkers? Hmmm
We don't want to give it irradiate  A spell that buff protoss units should do it. Wait a minute! The "Safeguard" already does this, and should work better vs lurkers / tanks than other units since they are less mobile. Rapture also holds some of them in place if they try to unburrow. I also think rapture should cover a larger aoe btw....
One problem with this is that SV's also counter lurkers, so scourge becomes the counter counter. Might be boring if both match ups feel similar when lurkers are made.
Also. The nullward triggers too late compared to when a unit enters on it. Last night I had a flock of vultures pass one, and they were not trapped.
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Charge is fine, the sc2 charge is silly, make you just a-move and look somewhere else, hardly any micro necessary. So I like it, even though it becomes much harder to use lategame.
Lurkers are indeed tough to deal with, they just wreck stalkers so easily and trying to pick em off with reavers requires vision, so if zerg has some backup from hydra's and an overseer then it's hard to break. Maybe safeguard is the answer, i'm not sure, i'll have to test that.
I'd rather have a sentinel with 50 energy rupture that moves much faster and has a wider aoe, it's meant to catch quick units, so the spell should be good enough to do so. (I still haven't really used them because rupture isn't good enough).
It feels if zerg is left alone to macro up that they get ahead very quickly, azelja did some triple CC opening yesterday vs xiph and without any real fight having happened, xiph had 90 supply vs 45, that felt really weird. On the other hand, if you play and aggressive style versus zerg it seems to be balanced. So i guess you just have to play aggressive in tvz.
About ghost, i originally thought shock was meant to target on the ground and had an area of effect, instead i say it's just a single unit and the missile is pretty slow for being 1 target only. Make it more like the ghost's emp in sc2, but with a slower projectile, so it can be dodged a bit if you anticipate it.
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Alright, after grinding out a ton of games, I think I've figured out a build that lets me safely transition into bio.
Something as embarrassing as yesterday won't happen again.
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On June 23 2013 18:01 Azelja wrote:
Alright, after grinding out a ton of games, I think I've figured out a build that lets me safely transition into bio.
Something as embarrassing as yesterday won't happen again.
everyone has such moments  , fen raped me again yesterday in pvt T_T
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lTowhV6.jpg)
The large patch was released almost a weak ago now. A group of players have played it every evening the entire week.
We've had a lot of great and entertaining games and Starbow seems to be in the "right direction."
How can we know when Starbow is "complete?"
How can we know when Starbow is good enough, so we can start to "advertise" and try to increase the player pool?
We as a small group of players will never be able to figure out the game or its balance completely.
Personally I think we need to fill the last holes in the game.
Make sure the basic foundation is good. Make sure everything works.
Then it is time to go big! ^^
Big stuff I think is left to fix in the game:
Make sure EVERY match-up offers a good variety of different build orders / openings to go.
+ Show Spoiler +I think TvZ, TvP, PvP, TvT looks good. It is not always the same. We see different openings and different playstyles.
I am concerned that PvZ "always" require Forge + Fast expand from Protoss, or early rush/cheese. Else they will die.
I am concerned that ZvZ "always" become Muta wars, because that is the best build to go for.
Corsairs vs Mutalisks vs Scourge
+ Show Spoiler +What is going on in the skies?
Sometimes pure Mutalisks win easily vs Protoss.
Sometimes Corsairs just melt everything.
It feels very volatile and.. brutal..
Two groups of air units collide: BAM! Shit dies. Combat over.
In BW, PvZ air combat seemed to be less brutal.
Combat took place over a large amount of time.
Back and forth, back and forth.
Maybe there needs to be a change in the splash damage.
Or I need to find a way to make Corsair micro easier to attack, back away, attack, back away?
Mass Vessels
+ Show Spoiler +If Terran turtle and get enough Vessels, it seems hard for Zerg to breach it. Nerve Jammer + Irradiate dominates every combat and counters everything Zerg can do.
Maybe Vessels must be nerfed.
Or Zerg need another way of dealing with them.
Lurker vs Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +As I adressed in the post above, Lurkers currently seem to dominate all Protoss ground units.
Static defence
+ Show Spoiler +I still think Static defence need a nerf.
Maybe tweak values a bit is enough.
If static defence become a little bit weaker, it can help to promote and encourage more harassment/skirmishes.
Players would instead need to use key units and quick reactions to strengthen their defence.
Sentinel
+ Show Spoiler +The current Sentinel might be "fun" to use if the spells become a bit better.
But as Xiphias point out in the post above, it has no purpose.
What can it do that NO other Protoss unit can already do?
There must be a reason to build the unit.
It must offer something unique to the Protoss race.
I will post more about this later.
Bio in TvT and TvP
+ Show Spoiler +My goal is to make Bio have some kind of role in those match-ups.
Maybe strong in the early/mid game.
Maybe strong in in certain build orders.
Maybe some bio units can become useful to have EVEN with a mech army. (Ghost, Reapers?)
I just do NOT want Bio to be completely useless 100% of all TvPs and TvTs.
Bugs
+ Show Spoiler +I have a list of bugs that needs to be fixed.
I also need to rewrite the description on some buttons.
Also add a better name to the Creeper :p
These are the general areas of the game I am concerned of.
When this is fixed, and probably some more things, then it can be time to start to advertise and increase the player pool.
Again, we can not make a perfectly balanced and designed game unless we have a large pool of players help us explore it.
But we need to make sure the foundation is good enough.
I do not want to present Starbow to a broad amount of people, if the game has bugs, unfinished units and apparent balance concerns. : - /
We only have one chance to make a really bad first impression. ^^
What are your thoughts on this?
Anything more that should be done?
Ps. When I talk about advertise, I do not mean we should buy advertisements on different sites. : p
Its just that we can try and create more ways for new people to know about Starbow.
I, Xiphias, Hider and a couple of other people have discussed different methods of doing that.
And we have some potential ways to go.
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@muta vs corsair: current problem lies that corsair can keep attacking while chasing muta's, BUT, when retreating they can zap at the muta's without the muta's catching up, the turn animation makes it stop for small window of time. I don't recall phoenixes having this problem, maybe look up how they fixed it for the phoenix?
@pvz: depends on map, if i can scout them around 13 supply i can choose to go nexus first or forge, if i see a passive build then i can even go nexus gateway, so the main problem in that regard is the random spawns.
@mass vessels: i'm not sure, i like the current scourge/vessel dynamic, seen xiph do some nice vessel snipes.
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@Mass Vessel
I consider to make Devourers a "counter" to Vessels.
IF Terran goes extremely heavy on Vessels, Zerg can get Devourers as a way to combat them in the late game.
Which then would force Terran to get other units into his composition to take care of the Devourers, and so on..
In the midgame, it is common (and fun) to see Vipers Abduct them and Scourges try to capture them when off guard.
But if Zerg "fails" with it, Terran will often win by just having insane numbers of Vessels.
I don't mind Vessels being great.
I just don't like that Vessels can counter everything Zerg got.
Especially if it leads to Terran turtling on 3-4 bases, maxing up Vessels, then moving out in the late game and just own everything. (As Hider has demonstrated is possible.)
Or maybe this is just a meta game thing..?
One possible solution:
Devourer gets a pasive ability.
Each time it attacks a unit with energy, ca 15-30 energy is drained from that unit.
The amount of drained energy is converted into life for the Devourer.
This would make Irradiate quite bad vs Devourers.
Devourers would become strong vs Vessels, BC, Arbiter, Sentinel and Viper.
@Defender advantage
What do you all think of the current 50% miss chance?
I consider to reduce it to 30% miss chance.
(It is still strong to be on the high ground.)
@Stalkers
The earlier stats for Stalkers made them strong vs everything.
They are now a bit more fragile and deal slighly less damage.
They are still useful, but we see more Zealots in the mix.
Since they are now less powerful, I consider to re-nerf Blink.
It was increased to 20 seconds cooldown because Stalkers were so strong.
I now consider to reduce it back to the original 12 or 10 seconds.
Thoughts?
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i agree with the blink reduction, feels very long atm, one wrong blink could mean you lose most of your stalkers
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please.. the defenders advantage is so perfect now i think.. specially in pvp when someone usually has more stalkers then the other and you can keep staying alive thanks to shooting down..
though i kinda would like if zerg had something to catch faster moving units.. even though they may alteaady exist xD
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On June 23 2013 21:18 Kabel wrote:
@Defender advantage
What do you all think of the current 50% miss chance?
I consider to reduce it to 30% miss chance.
(It is still strong to be on the high ground.)
Ill be honest i hate RNG factors in any game. It is been awhile since i mention this but i would rather like that the advantage was generated through some other means that is 100% consistant.
One thing that i have been considering is range. Would it be too little if units shooting up lost one range? Would it need to be more for siege units?
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i do agree, i'd rather have a constant reduction of 50% than a 50% chance on miss, takes away the randomness in a fight while still keeping the high ground advantage.
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EPT
