EPT[H] PvT @ Destination vs camper terrans? - Page 3
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Afasia
Finland70 Posts
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On August 11 2009 02:48 Louder wrote: 1. Wrong. Scout after your pylon 100% of every game you ever play. It doesn't slow down your economy and the sooner you know what's going on the better. Also the ability to probe harass and block buildings is key. 2. Don't queue up obs of all units. They cost a lot of gas and early on can interfere with other things being built. But definitely start one the instant a reaver is finished. 1) difference is your gateway is delayed by about 5.5 to 6 seconds. the entire build is delayed meaning that you will need to delay their barracks 5.5-6 seconds to be cost effective something you will not manage to do on a regular basis. 2) following a 1 gate expand you will have an excess of gas which allows for queuing 3 obs. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
On August 11 2009 06:38 foppa wrote: 1) difference is your gateway is delayed by about 5.5 to 6 seconds. the entire build is delayed meaning that you will need to delay their barracks 5.5-6 seconds to be cost effective something you will not manage to do on a regular basis. 2) following a 1 gate expand you will have an excess of gas which allows for queuing 3 obs. When i take a fast natural, I like to take my probes off of gas for a bit to even things out. queing up 3 obs is really bad macro | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On August 11 2009 06:40 Racenilatr wrote: When i take a fast natural, I like to take my probes off of gas for a bit to even things out. queing up 3 obs is really bad macro standard 1 gate expo when do you take guys off gas? how many? | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
Also foppa you are yet again wrong, 5.5 to 6 seconds? Where do you get your info from? I had to try it several times just to double check but I never delayed the gate more than 2 seconds by scouting after pylon. Scouting early doesn't put you behind as much as you think, it's barely noticeable. Just because you see progamers do cute stuff like larvae trick and supply near cc doesn't mean they actually matter in-game. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On August 11 2009 07:19 Shauni wrote: Guys stop derailing my thread with useless information. queueing up 3 obs or not simply doesn't matter. Also foppa you are yet again wrong, 5.5 to 6 seconds? Where do you get your info from? I had to try it several times just to double check but I never delayed the gate more than 2 seconds by scouting after pylon. Scouting early doesn't put you behind as much as you think, it's barely noticeable. Just because you see progamers do cute stuff like larvae trick and supply near cc doesn't mean they actually matter in-game. i tried it in single player. gateway starts at 1:17 without scouting and 1:23 with scouting. maybe one of my splits was just awful but the building placement was the same. | ||
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Mass.crafT
United States8 Posts
I'd try to sneak in some Corsair with d-web in the mix. Corsair are cheaper and build faster. There fast moving and can rape some Science vessels if they get too close. I think d-web is under used. With d-web you can suppress units without risking gas hogging Arbiters. Just a thought, from a bad player | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
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SkepTicAL
Canada872 Posts
On August 11 2009 09:09 foppa wrote: i tried it in single player. gateway starts at 1:17 without scouting and 1:23 with scouting. maybe one of my splits was just awful but the building placement was the same. Also matters on your split and how well you distrubute your workers without overlapping the same mineral. One test run means shit. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
You asked a bunch of questions but I feel this game (along with most TvP comebacks on Destination) was decided by poor decisionmaking more than anything and will focus solely on that aspect. The key is to limit them to 3 bases, as 3 base Terran really can't fight more than 2-3 maxed battles before going bankrupt. They rely fully on taking a 4th and sniping your expos, but if you prevent either one, they lose. As for expanding, there are certain timing points where the Terran cannot attack normally for economic reasons. Those are the points where you must keep expanding. Some of the most common are: -during the 2 base reaver harass -Right after the Terran takes their 3rd -If the Terran is doing a quick 3rd/4th base and hasn't began to mass factories (they'll build 6+ at once usually so before that moment) Of course should the Protoss triple expand or do anything crazy then these don't really mean anything but they are general guidelines for when you can expand and the Terran just has to take it or try to harass. You should've taken your 3rd as soon as you made the reaver. Pro tosses really abuse the fast 3rd on this map, especially in conjunction with reavers. And Terrans really can't do that much without some kind of risky semi-allin which you would've known he wasn't doing once you flew into his main. Had you done so, your 3rd would've finished by the time the reaver harass was finished and he would've been extremely behind with his much delayed econ. Even had he defended adequately, you would've kept him busy long enough to mess with his timing window and make any fast push a dangerous prospect. Of course, any slow push would fail to be a serious threat, so either way you come ahead if you expand at the right times and don't lose your reaver/shuttle. After the reaver damage he basically had no hope of winning with a timing push. His only chance was to do exactly what he did, turtle and play for the lategame and hope you really screw up. And you should have known this by a) having an observer in his main and b) seeing his very defensive middle position, and you should have punished it by expanding further and teching faster. In this game there's nothing he can do once your 3rd is done and 6 gates are up to prevent you from expanding again and again. If you had 5 bases running before his 3rd was done, you could've just steamrolled him with zeal/goon. But let's assume he did a better build, defended well, and wasn't so far behind economically. At 14-15 minutes, what can he do to prevent you from taking 9 and 8? There really isn't anything. It's the timing weakness in the build he's doing and it's part of the midgame issues for Terran. He simply doesn't have the manpower to both pressure the left side and defend the middle/right side while you can run around everywhere. And as you noted, your army composition was ill-suited for the task at hand. Basically think about it like this. What is the purpose of that first army? All zeal/goon is fine if you want to try to just trade armies while continually expanding and preventing his expansions. But if you don't plan to fight a battle until you are maxed for several minutes, you need to be preparing ahead for the inevitable upgraded/maxed mech + vessel clash and that means storm and stasis. Lots of it. Your 2nd and 3rd stargates should've been up far sooner and as Kwark said the neglect of arbiters really crippled you. But even failing all of the above, recalls always make a win possible. Before he is really able to establish his 8/7 expansions had you just suicided an army to recall into his 2 expansion, you would've put him in a dangerous position (you tried one at a bad angle with no way of drawing fire I think). Not only does he lose a critical mining source, but you also create a very big opening to recall into his main (as his 2 expansion's defense made defended the right side of his main against recalls unnecessary). So now he has to cover far more territory with far fewer resources and he can't. He never really could in the first place, as he lacked enough turrets/mines to really stop them and didn't cover 2 with a vessel. So had 1 recall went through, it would've been game. Use hallucination, 2 arbs, a decoy shuttle, or whatever you want, just get that recall. And even if recalls aren't practical, you can still force him to make a potential error and trade expansions. At around the 27th-28th minute mark when he sieges up at your 3 expo, you could've taken your army and stormed the left side, killing both of his expansions. The proper response for him in this situation is to scan it early enough, leave a few tanks sieged to kill 3, and retreat his army to save 8/7 while making sure his army doesn't get clumped and preempetively stasised in transition. But if he doesn't react in that exact fashion, he loses the game because suddenly he's not mining and you're rich. When you have advantages like you did, you can basically force the Terran to make really hard decisions and when they choose/execute wrong once they lose, while you can suffer losses many times over. And overall in late-late-game Destination, position is more important than army strength. Once any part of the Terran's formation is breached, (like when you broke the middle around 30 or so) their entire position becomes compromised as they simply can't defend everywhere. But overall note that a lot of your problems this game came from a lack of emphasis on information. Keeping that probe alive in his base would've let you 1 gate expo and start off positively rather than behind, and getting your obs deep into his base before his turrets completed (or even after by suiciding one) would've let you expand so much more aggressively. In addition, you lacked so many observers throughout the whole game and didn't rebuild them after they died. Those mistakes compounded bigtime, and while they are rather obvious to see, they remain still important enough to deserve a mention. A lot of the decisions I described can only come from near-perfect information, but observers let you get that information. Edit: My apologies if I sound too harsh. This was not so much intended as a critique on your play, instead I just wanted to emphasis all the important late game decisions that can swing the game in one direction or another. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
- Queuing anything early game is bad. - Queuing to "fix" excess gas is so bad .. it's almost a joke - If you don't need gas, take workers of gas. Also, this thread is falling apart, but it seems to have served it's purpose, Shauni got his epiphany. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
OR They take 4 base pretty fast (I have nightmares about timing pushing good toss's on Desti) and spend the whole game denying my 4th. Just all in aggression the entire game. But tbh man I dunno, Desti is a considerably T >> P map in the late game. | ||
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Mass.crafT
United States8 Posts
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KwarK
United States42555 Posts
Saying "you have extra minerals so you should make zealots because they're good vs tanks" is really, really stupid. He had extra minerals because he maxed out while locked in a stalemate. I get that you want to help and if you'd actually watched the replay and still had something to add I wouldn't mind so much. But you clearly haven't. This topic was on average one of the highest quality the strategy forum has ever had, both in terms of poster skill and quality of contribution. Reread what you wrote and ask yourself if it really adds to this. | ||
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Mass.crafT
United States8 Posts
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KwarK
United States42555 Posts
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Mass.crafT
United States8 Posts
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KwarK
United States42555 Posts
On August 12 2009 02:31 Mass.crafT wrote: I know nothing. This was my problem with what you were posting. You don't seem to understand. If you're bad at Starcraft and you didn't even watch the replay then you have nothing to add. Nothing to add on the theoretical area because you don't fucking know shit and nothing to add on the gameplay feedback area because you didn't even take the time to look. Stop martyring yourself like you did something good and I'm bashing you for it. What you did was take a huge shit in an otherwise good topic and then whine because when you were little your teacher told you every idea was a good one. When the Terran is sitting on 3 bases and has a single defensive line that covers them all you cannot abuse your mobility. Mobility allows you to pressure an overstretched Terran, hitting at opposite ends of his defensive line. He had one defensive point, you can't duck and weave vs that. You move about, he stays still. You pressure the empty base site at 3, he stays still. You suddenly switch across to pressure the untaken base at 8, he stays still. Everything you wrote was a big pile of wank. On August 12 2009 02:31 Mass.crafT wrote: i'll shut up and go away. Success. | ||
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SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
On August 12 2009 02:31 Mass.crafT wrote: thanks for making my point that all that most of people do is beat other players down case you think you know it all. thanks for supporting the new players and missing the point all together. Im not telling him what to do. He knows hes better then me. Hell, I lost to a single cell life form the other day. So, go poor yourself a tall glass of Hateraid. Sip slowly and enjoy the fact that you know everything and I know nothing. I'm just trying to get him to think of thing he might not. So i'll shut up and go away. Usually I would be the one banned and not the one suggesting this but.  for incoherent English and arguing with established titans over obscure and worthless things. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
Your advice is appreciated, but it's unlikely that it'll help shauni coz it's not high level advice. It's a fact and it has nothing to do with anything other than that. Don't take the criticism personally. And Kwark, Mass.crafT is also trying to help, just as you are, not his fault he's not aware his advice is not top-skill-level. There are better ways of critisizing his post that calling it stupid. | ||
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