On January 25 2009 14:34 Cloud wrote: Yes, i understand that haji, only after he blatantly clarified it however. Still, a fast corsair is i believe the best way, the constant zeals should delay the zergs decision to attack you. Granting you more time for the corsair to come out.
Are you trying to say I wasn't being clear at first?
You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.
Read the first sentence. I made it blatantly clear from the beginning.
Just drop it Cloud. You're wrong because what you say doesn't work in reality. The hydra breaks are timed to come out before the corsair. If you have a corsair in his base before his hydras started moving to your base he is simply a bad player with crappy timings.
And no, you can't pay for zealots, cannons and fast tech by just cutting probes, unless you're cutting pylons also or something? Even if you could cut probes to get the corsair out faster what good would it do you? You would have a bunch of zeals and cannons but absolutely crap economy, If he did a heavy macro build you'll most likely be fucked. I'd rather add 5 cannons blindly than cutting probes early. Wouldn't you also rather cut zealots for probes and add cannons at the last possible moment?
Btw, how do you get your corsair faster than standard? The standard builds are mapped out to get the corsair tech out with the first gas you get. You're gonna make less cannons to get faster core vs a possible speedling runby?
There's a reason pro gamers don't counter hydra pushes with corsair rush. Because it's not possible and because the corsair itself does not counter hydras. Lately they counter it by doing 3 cannons and adding a 4th as they move out with the corsair. If they spot hydras they can add a fifth. If they spot tech they cancel the 4th.
Edit: I shamefully denounce and reject this post! Nony has since set me straight and I've had much success with the advice he gave.
On January 25 2009 14:31 Malinor wrote: The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.
Our argument comes down to this. This is what I was saying the entire time.
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote: Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.
No, this is wrong.
Yep, thats what i mean.
Are you just trolling now? I meant the first sentence of what I quoted. Nevertheless, my second sentence of my first post, and the five posts afterwards said the same thing. You are wrong and you need to get over it.
You dont skip the 3rd cannon, you ALREADY have the 3rd cannon if you want to survive his speedlings. Of course the corsair doesnt help fighting hydras lol, but any time you can buy by knowing the attack before it actually happens is worth in gold.
Lol ok, im getting a lot of shit here, but just for closing, Starbrit, its not the hydra rush that is countered. ITS THE DENIED SCOUTING DUE TO SPEEDLINGS THAT FORCES YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have fun sneaking probes instead of figuring out how to cut probes and get your sair in time.
Oh and oneother, i only left that part from your post, since thats exactly the part that you left out when you quoted yourself.
On January 25 2009 14:52 Cloud wrote: Lol ok, im getting a lot of shit here, but just for closing, Starbrit, its not the hydra rush that is countered. ITS THE DENIED SCOUTING DUE TO SPEEDLINGS THAT FORCES YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have fun sneaking probes instead of figuring out how to cut probes and get your sair in time.
Oh and oneother, i only left that part from your post, since thats exactly the part that you left out when you quoted yourself.
If Protoss could cut probes to get a fast enough Corsair to stop a 2 hatch Hydra, why would everyone not do it everytime the Zerg goes 9 Pool Speedlings? We are talking about StarCraft here, not the ideal, imaginary CloudCraft. In real StarCraft, Protoss does not get the Corsair on time to set up defense verses Hydras on time, which is what makes the Protoss player try alternate methods. If all fails, then yeah it's time to add more cannons. Everyone is telling you that cutting probes and getting a faster Corsair somehow is not the solution.
I made my point clear from the beginning - the second sentence of my first post. But good job figuring out which part I left out, as if that's relevant at all. I said read the first sentence of what I quoted. Don't try to claim that I wasn't being clear. Anyways, I think I am done here. This is getting ridiculous.
Because they probably have the same idea as you that its simply impossible to get it in time? And cutting probes isnt appealing to anyone. If everyone scouted with their 6th worker, 5 pools would be completely useless, yet almost no one likes the idea of that, right?
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.
On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!
I think most of these are really bad examples: - July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4 - Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later) - Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front. - Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.
My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.
Kinda funny, you look at these games and take them as evidence that the corsair would be able to see what is comming given the right timing. When I watch these games I think it becomes obvious that the corsair won't save you. Best vs Luxury in example: You say his timing is fucked because of 3 cannons before Nexus. But put yourself in Bests position: He scouts 9pool+speed+10lings... the 3rd cannon is basically forced, he has to fear an ling all-in/ run-by at this stage. 2 cannons is not gonna cut it if Luxury shows up with like 16 speedlings at his frontdoor. When you talk about "bad cannon-placement" you need to realize that especially the first cannons are not placed against hydras but against lings... warping all your cannons in front of your buildings is not really an option since zerglings would easily surround them. you would need more cannons to start with which would delay your corsair again.
The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.
Ok then the answer is: this is not scoutable, there is no "other stuff to do" as oneother never posted anything else and this is a zerg autowin. Is that it? LOL. And from what ive seen not even foreigners get 3 cannons before nexus/gate and idk how 8 lings can be 16 at his frontdoor, to make it a little more clear WARPING 3 CANNONS BEFORE NEX IS BAD. And to oneother: delaying your 2 gas and putting 2 extra cannons wont hurt you if the zerg went speedlings, in fact not all progamers take that 2 gas so early. Its not like youre guessing youre just playing safe.
a corsair can finish building before 5:35 and, scouting along the ground path between the two players, can see a 9pool speed --> 2hatch hydra bust build in time to block it. 2 cannons can start building immediately, and the protoss will have 1goon, 3 zealot, 12 probes out front, that can hold until those cannons finish.
the failure vods that were posted can be explained: bisu and best both do a greedier build and so the corsair is too late. the hydras walk right up to the cannons without any wall of probe/zealot/goon to stop them. tempest does a build with really late scouting, so jaedong is able to deny scouting without getting ling speed, and so his hydra attack is faster.
the bisu vs july game @ medusa with the successful defense is an example of a compromised protoss build. bisu does not build a 2nd assimilator, he does not build a citadel, he does not get +1 weapons, he does not build probes non-stop. he delays all of those things so that he can make zealots, cannons, and a fast corsair. it's not the fastest corsair possible, but his variation with more cannons and slower tech works as well.
i think the corsair rush is good, and what bisu did can also work, but i wanted to check out rushing to 4 zealots, and it seems promising. i havent done it in practice at all, but from watching a replay of the timing, it seems that the 4 zealots get on offense fast enough that they can discover the zerg's build beyond speedlings. even if hydra/ling owns them, such a battle would take place on the zerg's side of the map, so protoss has time to prepare for the counterattack. it should work similarly against 2hatch muta. a macro zerg will also be scouted, which allows the protoss to start making probes non-stop, or adjust in whatever other way they want to, and it forces the zerg to make lings when they need to make drones. the only problematic build, i think, is mass lings. the zealots will get eaten up and sufficient defense might not be possible in time for the huge counterattack. but mass lings is the worst build against a normal toss build and it's uncommon
nony: how did bisu know july was doing an aggressive/all-in build? i mean a protoss player would never forgo all those things just in case the zerg does a hydra break, because he would be at a huge disadvantage if it ends up being a normal macro game. did he guess, and ended up being correct?
i guess if you somehow think the zerg is doing an all-in, it's fine to skip all those things because you just need to defend. but if you have no idea what the z is doing, would you actually skip 1+ attack/late citadel/late second assim/cut economy?
OneOther put it right the first time, cloud. I've NEVER seen a sair see me in time when I 2 hatch hydra. Ever. I think you are confusing 3 hatch hydra....
Hydra break with 2 hatch and 8 hydra (excluding 4 more hydra cuts time as well) makes it faster as well..
On January 25 2009 18:02 Liquid`NonY wrote: a corsair can finish building before 5:35 and, scouting along the ground path between the two players, can see a 9pool speed --> 2hatch hydra bust build in time to block it. 2 cannons can start building immediately, and the protoss will have 1goon, 3 zealot, 12 probes out front, that can hold until those cannons finish.
the failure vods that were posted can be explained: bisu and best both do a greedier build and so the corsair is too late. the hydras walk right up to the cannons without any wall of probe/zealot/goon to stop them. tempest does a build with really late scouting, so jaedong is able to deny scouting without getting ling speed, and so his hydra attack is faster.
the bisu vs july game @ medusa with the successful defense is an example of a compromised protoss build. bisu does not build a 2nd assimilator, he does not build a citadel, he does not get +1 weapons, he does not build probes non-stop. he delays all of those things so that he can make zealots, cannons, and a fast corsair. it's not the fastest corsair possible, but his variation with more cannons and slower tech works as well.
i think the corsair rush is good, and what bisu did can also work, but i wanted to check out rushing to 4 zealots, and it seems promising. i havent done it in practice at all, but from watching a replay of the timing, it seems that the 4 zealots get on offense fast enough that they can discover the zerg's build beyond speedlings. even if hydra/ling owns them, such a battle would take place on the zerg's side of the map, so protoss has time to prepare for the counterattack. it should work similarly against 2hatch muta. a macro zerg will also be scouted, which allows the protoss to start making probes non-stop, or adjust in whatever other way they want to, and it forces the zerg to make lings when they need to make drones. the only problematic build, i think, is mass lings. the zealots will get eaten up and sufficient defense might not be possible in time for the huge counterattack. but mass lings is the worst build against a normal toss build and it's uncommon
Hopefully theres more people like nony wanting to analize bos (and actually watch the vods) other than just posting "sair cant save you". The main problem i see with the idea from nony (the 4 zeal rush scouting) is that you need to skip the first goon giving more space to overlord scouting. On the other hand nony can answer some questions for us:
¿how fast to take the second gas if zerg 9pool speed? the zerg has to delay his macro a lot early game compared to a hatch/pool/gas or im wrong? im really interested about this. ¿timing for the third cannon? im suposing 2 cannons after forge then nexus and 9 pools/peedlings scouted, i think after core is the safest. ¿Can you post a replay with the fastest sair? thank you.
I still think probe scouting or sending a zealot to scout is sufficient enough to recognize an all in build.
If Zerg has only 6-8 lings, and you use 2 probes to scout, one to attract attention and one to sneak out, you should be fine. You should only have problems scouting if he builds 12+ lings, in which case you can just throw down extra cannons, since he is pretty behind building all those early lings.
The early sair BO sounds interesting and is certainly safer. I guess you can try it vs notoriously aggressive zergs (July)
So all and all, you guys suggest sneaking whatever possible out of base to scout him after speedlings?
Because I keep losing probes only to make 3-4 canons, than some at base only to find out that he went 4 hatch drone whore.
Could someone make a guide on scouting tricks against Z speedling opening?
And 10 lings easily stop 2-3 probes TT
EDIT: Oh shiz how did I miss the Nony's post? I thought I read it all. So zeals enough to get the lings I saw to push him to his base and see hydras to allow canon whoring
Seriously, everyone here except Cloud and Nony are overestimating how powerful a 2 hatch hydra all-in is. I mean, really? It's like a 9 pool for the midgame. Even if you don't scout it, they have to micro like a god to finish you off with it - which is not to say that it doesn't happen. But come on, you can stop a group of hydras with less than 5 cannons half of the time if they don't micro perfectly.
EPT
