EPTjust wanted to say thank you. might ask something later ^^
[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 3
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jdobrev
Bulgaria162 Posts
just wanted to say thank you. might ask something later ^^ | ||
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DocHolliday
United Kingdom51 Posts
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion. 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game. Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik). If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something): - after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on) then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map. like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production. hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo Shortly after Factory. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?) Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists, you go for a Stim/CS timing with MM. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down. It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and are unsure about what the Protoss is doing. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient. This should only be a problem for your third since your fourth and next bases should be PF. Try to deny Pylons on your side of the map. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively. Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always? Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of speed Reapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenarii). On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game. 3 Reactors is fine. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too. The problem is more about confirming Blink Stalkers all-ins since others 2 gas one-base all-ins require different answers. 4 rax (3 lab + one naked) should easily fend off Blink Stalkers all-in, but then again you likely won't know yet if that's this one for sure. Aim at 26-28 SCVs with 1-1-1, 22 is not enough. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel. It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees. Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building rax #3 4 5. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy. Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). I'd say a good follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab one Reactor) BFH with Marines (with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech) to force Roaches or Banes. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand). Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas? Your choice. 3 CCs before gas will not defend some Baneling busts or early Roaches pushes. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build? As you wish, but to be honest 2-bases pressure builds into third were quite weakened by Queen range 5. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so. Early Starports are used for Banshees, if you don't want to use them you can delay Starports a bit but you should have at least 6 Medivacs for your maxed push. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game. Dies to Marine/Hellion elevators, some vulnerabilities to 1-1-1 but otherwise fine. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo. This or BFH expand can be quite nice mech openings. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well. Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355261 I know this isn't a strategy related question but reading through here it seems you do play mech sometimes, so it would be really useful to players just getting into it. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On August 20 2012 22:43 DocHolliday wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion. 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game. Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik). If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something): - after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on) then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map. like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production. hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post. On August 20 2012 23:49 TheDwf wrote: + Show Spoiler + (Mid-GM on Eu.) On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo Shortly after Factory. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?) Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists, you go for a Stim/CS timing with MM. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down. It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and are unsure about what the Protoss is doing. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient. This should only be a problem for your third since your fourth and next bases should be PF. Try to deny Pylons on your side of the map. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively. Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always? Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of speed Reapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenarii). On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game. 3 Reactors is fine. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too. The problem is more about confirming Blink Stalkers all-ins since others 2 gas one-base all-ins require different answers. 4 rax (3 lab + one naked) should easily fend off Blink Stalkers all-in, but then again you likely won't know yet if that's this one for sure. Aim at 26-28 SCVs with 1-1-1, 22 is not enough. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel. It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees. Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building rax #3 4 5. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy. Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). I'd say a good follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab one Reactor) BFH with Marines (with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech) to force Roaches or Banes. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand). Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas? Your choice. 3 CCs before gas will not defend some Baneling busts or early Roaches pushes. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build? As you wish, but to be honest 2-bases pressure builds into third were quite weakened by Queen range 5. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so. Early Starports are used for Banshees, if you don't want to use them you can delay Starports a bit but you should have at least 6 Medivacs for your maxed push. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game. Dies to Marine/Hellion elevators, some vulnerabilities to 1-1-1 but otherwise fine. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo. This or BFH expand can be quite nice mech openings. On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well. Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign. Thanks a ton! I'll edit my question to reflect it being answered. If Thorzains build dies to marine/hellion elevators as you say (I've honestly not lost to them in my memory but not faced them often either), is there any safe 1rax no gas expand that you recommend, or should I always go with some gas expand (reaper, hellion, marine/hellion, banshee, cloak banshee)? Also, what are your rally points like? TvT - I rally to a staging point near/outside my natural normally TvZ - ^ same TvP - I set my rallypoints as far forward as I think I'll be fighting because otherwise even if I win an engagement. e.g. when I go out around ~9 minutes I normally rally outside the protoss natural, and late game I either rally to a a staging ground near my 3rd/4th or forward again. edit: spoiler tags are good. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
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phidget
Canada10 Posts
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DocHolliday
United Kingdom51 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:30 teamamerica wrote: Thanks a ton! I'll edit my question to reflect it being answered. If Thorzains build dies to marine/hellion elevators as you say (I've honestly not lost to them in my memory but not faced them often either), is there any safe 1rax no gas expand that you recommend, or should I always go with some gas expand (reaper, hellion, marine/hellion, banshee, cloak banshee)? Also, what are your rally points like? TvT - I rally to a staging point near/outside my natural normally TvZ - ^ same TvP - I set my rallypoints as far forward as I think I'll be fighting because otherwise even if I win an engagement. e.g. when I go out around ~9 minutes I normally rally outside the protoss natural, and late game I either rally to a a staging ground near my 3rd/4th or forward again. edit: spoiler tags are good. Yeah I forgot to mention actually that the hardest build I come across when doing thorzains TvT is the marine helion drop. Very hard to deal with, basically you have to know it's coming (6.30 scan should give you enough info, plus from your first scv scout will see 1 gas, anytime i see 1 gas ill put a bunker down on natural ramp at some point). So you leave 2-3 marines in your bunker then keep the rest and have your rax rallied to them and just keep moving and looking around the edge of your main expecting the drop, if you are in a good position to engage as soon as he drops then you can do ok, but it is very hard. if he unloads completely in your base before you get to him you will have to pull scvs and you will lose some (which isn't game over, as you did get your CC up a lot quicker). banshee builds are a lot easier to deal with using a few well placed turrets and your combat shield marines. quick siege tank pushes can be tricky, but there was a youtube vid of some guy showing a really good way of defending from 1 rax expo. I can't find the vid any more but i wrote it all out on this post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350883#14 | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 19 2012 17:46 Sianos wrote: I havesome questions regarding TvP and TvZ: TvP: In general is it better to have the 5 Rax before 3rd CC or the 3rd CC after 3 Rax? As i understand the difference is that you have a bigger army and a faster production when you do the 5 Rax first to pressure Protoss or force trades, while with the 3 Rax CC you´ll have a better economy but slower production, which means you have to play more defencely. When do you add your second Starport? I thought as soon as i scout collossus, but i remember someone said that you just need the 2nd Starport when your opponent goes 2 Robo Collossus. I also don´t see pro players go for that 2nd Starport that fast aggainst Collossus. TvZ: Is there a way to go straight up into Marine-Tank-Medivac timing pushes instead of Hellion-Banshee after fax expanding? I really don´t like the big micro part in the earlygame, while i building up my base, but i don´t want to be only defensive until midgame. I´m currently experiementing with Combat Shield timings aggainst Zerg´s 3rd base. I really like to play TvZ, because i understand the matchup quite well, but i´m currently lost because i can´t find or create on opening that´s suits my style. @TvP: 'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed. Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued. @TvZ: Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings. On larger maps, the one he used against Nestea in the TAC grand finals works. On more normal maps, look at his TAC game vs AnnyeongPrime on Antiga. Alternatively, you can do Reality's build which he used against Yugioh in the WCS qualifiers on Ohana (14 cc -> 2 rax -> cloak banshee with constant marine production -> cc). On August 19 2012 18:33 ShaneFeit wrote: How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars? Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.) Can't really put it in words...it really has a lot to do with feel and knowing the practical range of your ghosts/placement in the army/timing. Basically snipe has longer range but feedback is instant cast, so if they both walk in range then try to kill, templar wins, but if Terran scans ahead and does it from range, he wins. Alternatively, you can lead with emp and use the outer radius of it to hit them, though that isn't as good as it used to be. On August 19 2012 18:55 LiLSighKoh wrote: I feel way to scared when playing against 2 rax gas (PvT) am I overreacting to choose to go 3 gate expo or can is it still plausible to do a 1 gate FE? If so, what would my unit comp be in order to stop some of that early aggression? You should never 3 gate expand. Never was any good, is atrocious now. You can 1 gate expo on every map except possible close spawn Taldarim if you don't scout them in time. If you want to hard counter the 2 rax RT you can go 1 gate robo gate nexus. Immortals crush it so badly. Honestly 2 rax is a very weak build unless the opponent has no idea it's coming and chronos only probes or something. Bling beat Polt twice with it in the group stage of the Assembly where Polt beat Stephano in the finals. On August 20 2012 11:46 Natespank wrote: Hi Ver, I play platinum terran using the Filter-style macro build. My early game is very weak and I'd like to practice using early game all ins to work on my unit control and unit knowledge. So: what are the best all ins to end the game early as terran against T, Z or P? I almost never Terran succeed at one in tournaments so I'm not sure where to look. Thanks! I have no idea what a filter macro build is. imo the best allins: TvZ: Proxy 11/11. Nothing else is any good. MaruPrime did this in multiple TLopen games. TvT: Cloak banshee into marine/tank/banshee allin. See MVP vs Polt on Dual Sight from GSTL I believe. TvP: Proxy hellion drop. See Marineking vs Parting on Antiga, GSL groups. | ||
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tjuggx
114 Posts
You didnt want replays posted in this thread but is it really just the micro that is messing me up cause i feel i have the right composition afterall.. How should i effectively use ghosts cause they really are my weakest link | ||
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
Just a fyi (no need to reply): What I meant by Filter macro: I have no idea what a filter macro build is. was this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787 | ||
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ViceRoyce
Poland21 Posts
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
tvz: you think that the best way to fight zerg is to harass them with something like (hellion-banshee) take a fast third and make a big fight at the 4th of the zerg.¨ (is it true that the terran need to stop the 4th of the zerg to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage)) tvp: on a map where the third is hard, make 5 rax before third and pressure the third of the toss. (is it true that the terran need to stop the 3th of the protoss to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage) | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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babyToSS
233 Posts
Basically at this point I opt for one of the following - 1) Put down lots of raxes and start pushing and dropping the zerg while taking a fourth. Usually a good idea on maps like antiga/ohana or when I have a lead and I know my push will do damage. How I fail: Due to creep spread and infestors, I have to push slowly with my marine+tank and often the zerg has enough time to tech to ultras. At this point I am in a huge dilemma, if I keep pushing slowly, evetually the zerg overwhelms with a lot of units or counter attacks undefended bases with ultra ling. Against good zergs that split units for dealing with drops, it is also near impossible to retreat as they will scout and rush your retreating army with ultra ling. Basically, I end up losing my army and being denied a fourth base and then eventually get worn down by a remaxing zerg army with Blord tech switch. 2) If I don't push then I put down a fourth, make it a planetary and turtle to viking+HSM raven. I try to take a 5th but usually that is quite difficult against hive tech zerg with bank. In this case, I have trouble with ultra ling infestor. On large maps, counter-attacks are a danger. During the raven+HSM transition I try to drop to contain the zerg but sometimes the zerg simply attacks with maxed out ultra ling infestor. In this attack, (i) I either lose my army+4th and thus lose the game or (ii) I lose my 4th but have most of my army (the best case scenario, I pressure or get a nice window to get raven tech while taking 4th again) or (iii) I trade most of my army for most of zerg's. The (iii) case is the most likely one and in this case, I just die to the remax since I cannot produce fast enough and the raven+viking tech doesn't do anything. So basically, my question to the pro (or any high masters) terrans is, what is your game plan in mid-late game TvZ? When zerg has a decent infestor count and turtling while going upto 4 and more bases, what do you do? Do you scout for anything specific, have any tech timings etc. Any help would be much appreciated. How do you deal with the above scenarios or is it the case that my mechanics are bad and the above scenarios should never happen? | ||
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jinx1281255
United States45 Posts
In TvP, how many different hot keys do you use when microing marines, mauraders, medivacs, vikings and ghosts? How do you have them setup? Should I be using more than 3 seperate control groups for this specific combination of units? Against A protoss opponent that is going high templar off 2 base, what is a standard time for me to expect storm to finish? Lastly, do you recommend waiting on rax add-ons until I scout tech path of toss player? (for initial 3 rax off of 1RaxFE) I am trying to figure out whether going double gas and double techlab is a good idea to get stim and combat shields (+ earlier factory, and upgrades) simultaneously for a 9:45 push with +1, or whether this is a bad thing to do when not sure of toss tech path. Also, what is the best time to hit a toss going for double forge upgrades and colossi off 2 base? Or, should I just expand instead of attacking? | ||
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Stingart
122 Posts
In this game i mess multiple engagements up: http://speedy.sh/wa8ef/Antiga-Shipyard-4.SC2Replay | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 19 2012 19:09 Bwall wrote: What do you look for when you scv-scout in TvZ(let's say it's a 2-player map, so we know where he spawned)? I can't really understand the gas timings, because sometimes people just go for a fast lingspeed to be safe, and with the same gas-timing it might be a 5-7 roach rush. The scout doesn't always survive long enough to see if he mines >100 gas, and the zerg could also pull off drones from gas for a few seconds to trick me. Zergs always open 15 hatch, and I don't go cc first so 3rd hatch before pool is out of the question. You can really never know for sure if they are going speedling allin, speedling expo, ling/bane allin, roach timing, roach/ling allin, or roach/bane/ling. All you can really do note what is possible from the gas timing. i,e, if they get gas around when pool finishes, it will be something 7 mins +, while if they go gas pool, you have to account for a 1 or 0 queen 550 baneling bust or 630 40 ling runby. Another possibility, map dependent, is leave an scv in front of their ramp so you can have advance warning if units stream out. Basically there is some degree of luck here as you can't be prepared against everything and bunker placements are not universal. On August 19 2012 20:29 Enemyy wrote: Hi 1,1k master here, first: Hats off! Great thing you do here  1) About TvP Lategame Engagements: I know how that goes in theory but often screw up positioning in practice. What is the best and simple way generally speaking to make protoss engage in an unfavorable way? Especially on maps like cloud kingdom i find it nearly impossible to drop and also to split the protoss attention very much cause he can easily cover both bases and get the tech of their choice + max out. I feel like as Terran it's really difiicult to do sth about that on maps like cloud. What's your point on that? 2) How do you get an Edge vs Protoss if your well known 10 Minute timing completly fails? Most Protoss just deflect it with relative ease and i am not able to drop in the main / natural due to well spread stalkers and do not really have a chance to attack the front due to sentrys. So where do i get an edge then? He will get to collosi eventually and force me back. I think the question from Sianos comes here into play also, is 5rax before cc or cc before 5rax better? What do you think about thorzains way of getting all of them together around 9:30 and relying on 2 rax till then with a fast medivac timing (e.g. recent day9 daily and alot of his recent games as reference). 3) Some Advice and suggestions on my Bio Build and the guide in general. See this as a rather personal request than a general question but as you also mentioned bio play in tvz i would really appreciate that you, as someone with pro gaming experience, may take a look at my bio guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554 And especially the build i have there. Is there something you would change and if what and to which extend? I'd really appreciate some improvements if you could find some weak points. Best Regards and again thanks alot! E: 4) Regarding TvT - Which opening would you recommend on master level that can put on some pressure but also get a relativly quick expand? I am very much so a more agressive player and also utilized a 2rax reaper opening not to long ago which is not really viable if countered correctly, so i am looking for some alternatives. The downside i often see is that most 1-1-1 builds etc. get really late expansions which require them to do alot of dmg. Is there some kind middle of the road where you get a relativly fast expand which also enables you to pressure hard afterwards? 5) Do you see "revolutionary" potential in anything across all terran matchups? By that i mean units/builds that are not really popular or explored (Even if i do not play it skyterran in TvZ comes to mind) which could wildley change the matchup? Thanks alot 1) Later on in the game drops become virtually irrelevant because cannon + obs + templar + warpin handles them way too easily. Cloud Kingdom is one of the worst drop maps regardless and you shouldn't rely on it there. Practicing engagements in TvP is really hard because it requires you to simply be active with your army but have a good eye for knowing when the Protoss army is in bad formation (i,e colossus not able to all fire at once, scrunched up in choke, you have wide arc, stalkers in the front blocking zealot/archon, templar clumped up etc) and instantly seizing it. The best way to learn it would just to watch a large number of top Kor Terrans from their pov's and rewatching the battles and sequences leading up to them over and over. 2) Your 2 medivac poke shouldn't actually fail, it should just be repulsed without much loss on either side. You cannot afford to commit too heavily with it. When it does get repulsed freely, you shouldn't worry or think you are behind, it is simply natural. You can continue threatening drops, getting upgrades, and taking your own third. Ultimately, the Protoss has to mess up for you to really gain an advantage, but you can also mess with htem by using empty medivacs to pull their units out of position. The decision between 3 and 5 rax really is more dependent on what kind of player you are and how confident you are if the game drags on. 5 rax obviously has much more offensive potential and can punish greed a lot easier, but feels weaker if the Protoss knows what they are doing and the map affords easy thirds. Fast medivac can be a good idea, especially on maps or vs players you are afraid of 2 base colo allins (i,e Cloud Kingdom or Shakuras). It is slightly weaker to 5 or 6 gate because your stim is much later and you have to be careful with your units or be overrun easily, but it is an intriguing way to mess with the Protoss. 3) To be blunt, pure bio TvZ is bad and only works if you massively outplay your opponent and they don't know how to play against it. Taeja did it for awhile and won just because he was that much better, but if you notice now he never skips tanks anymore. It's fine to delay your tanks to achieve some kind of initiative, but dedicated pure bio itself just does not work in general and gets absolutely slaughtered by dedicated muta/ling/bane. 4) gas first banshee expo. You can do TheSTC's version of this which gets 3 hellions then command center. He then adds 2 barracks and double reactors while researching stim, then another reactor for the port, aiming for a 2 medivac timing. When his banshee goes into the main he runs 3 hellions into the natural. It will work at all levels but at the very highest level if you know how to play against it and pull your scvs into the main, he ends up behind. Regardless, it's a solid pressure build to learn that isn't allin on maps where you can do banshee damage. He used this build against me at MLG Orlando on Taldarim (WR4) or against Drewbie in whichever Arena Drewbie qualified for on Daybreak I believe (also in an IPL online qualifier). 5) Not much to be honest. There might be some potential with mech in TvP but it's unlikely it will actually be better than bio. The more likely option is extra orbital builds like we are seeing Taeja do in TvZ. The best improvement I can see is figuring out a sign that lets the Terran know he won't be allined, then building multiple orbitals to gain an econ lead. Otherwise there isn't much possible improvement until a new patch. On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this. I will make this short. Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why? Yes. Marine heavy has been the standard for a long time now. Marauders are better in drops and necessary against colossus and you always want a few for the slow/tanking but marines are better in every other way. The only time you should ever be marauder heavy is against stalker/colossus, but almost nobody goes that because it is gimmicky. Marines do more damage, work with medivacs far better, and are smaller so they do more damage per surface area which is critical against non-aoe protoss armies. On August 19 2012 21:05 No0n wrote: How do we apply what we learned from sAviOr's play in your FE God of the Battlefield to our Terran play in all Matchups? How do you think we are able to fix the weaknesses in Mech play in TvP with what we currently have? If you could answers it would mean a lot to me. Thanks man This is something I've given a lot of thought as well. It's tough because SC2 is a lot more shallow of a game strategically, Terran requires far more micro and attention than the other races, and Terran does not have that same tactical depth as Zerg either. I think the main two points that can exploited are information and movement. MMA does this the best of anyone, getting his opponents to look this way or that while attacking any weakened area. though in his GSL series vs Leenock Jjakji also did a great job splitting up his army to handle backstabs while threatening the front, then linking up his forces before Leenock was any wiser. The other possibility against Terran and Protoss is dividing your army up into multiple groups, forcing your enemy to split up his forces, then pouncing on any errors in disposition or surrounding him if he moves out prematurely. The main problem with this is its really hard to micro a battle on both sides of the opponent and make sure the timing works out. It definitely requires a different shift in mentality and attention, but is something I am working on. I don't think the weaknesses with mech can really be fixed, just compensated for by doing insane worker damage with hellions and banshees. Banshees seem to be the only potential hope for mech, though there are exorbitant gas costs in getting tank/thor/banshee. On August 19 2012 21:37 Chr15t wrote: You mention a fast armory build going into mech tvz, do you have a fairly recent replay of this, that u wouldnt mind posting/uploading, Im always eager to learn alternate mech openings. also while im writing this, can you explain why the 1 rax expo into 2 factory (1 tech lab - 1 reactor) seems to have faded out of popularity) , is it the increasingly focus on econ openings? or something in the metagame that changed? Sadly I do not, but basically the build order is the same except you get your armory right after the starport, delaying your cloak and 3rd cc slightly, which is not much loss. I'm assuming you are talking about TvZ. That build was very strong before the blue flame nerf because you could do so much drone damage but not as much anymore. Nowadays it's even worse because you can't stop the overlord from scouting it so the Zerg just makes roaches and ends up way ahead. Keen floundered with it utterly vs Jonnyrecco in tsl on game 7 even though Jonny didn't scout it, though to be fair Keen's build was bad as he didn't make a starport followup. On August 19 2012 22:22 Chaggi wrote: Will you write another thing like "God of the Battlefield"? and articles like that? What's your favorite build in TvT and why? Part 2 is done, just has been awaiting graphics for half a year now -_- Will be writing a lot more in the upcoming months. My favorite build is either rax cc or 14cc into 3 rax tech because it's the one opening you can practice and come out even or ahead against everything else, except on Shakuras or Taldarim. The other openings have too many blind build order counters that you just lose helplessly against. On August 19 2012 23:00 Seinken wrote: What is your opinion on blind building a bunker at protoss nat on 16 supply with a 1rax mara FE? How about the qxc bunker? do you have any experience with followups the zerg can do regarding it? I've been experimenting quite a bit with both of these builds and they seem to throw the games wildly in my favor as there is very very little guessing (i know when they expanded, if they have probes out, zerg is only on 2 base, only made x queens, no creep spread etc) and I think they might be incorporated more into the metagame. You played against my protoss friend at MLG, nice to see a thread like this ^^ If you are doing the proxy marauder flash and taeja do, then yes building the bunker mandatory. If you are just doing a normal marauder opening, you should consider changing your build because it doesn't work anymore against solid players. It might get you free wins against people who don't know how to react but once you rise up people will know how to play against it (just chronoing the gateway a couple times) and you'll have more build order losses (i,e void allin, see forgg vs MC on metro from a gsl code s group stage) or simply entering the midgame behind for no justifiable reason. qxc bunker is not good sadly; it only works if the Zerg has never seen it before and/or is dumb and won't know how to react. They just spread creep around it and then pull 4 queens and kill it. Also if they make 6-8 lings and you try it you just lose all your marines while actually is really crippling because it makes you very vulnerable to an allin. Glad to hear it ^^ | ||
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saladToss
United States75 Posts
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Absurd Bunny
168 Posts
1. In almost every matchup, I will do a 1 rax fast expand, sometimes against zerg if it's tal darim altar or entombed valley, I might do a command center first. But when I scout something like zerg, protoss, or terran going double gas on one base and goes to all in, I don't know the proper counter. I know that there is an all in coming, but I don't know what units are going to come, how many there are going to be, and what units I should make to counter it, how many bunkers, should I lift my second base, halt scv production, etc etc. What is a correct counter to this? 2. I'm having hard times with TvP and TvZ, TvT I'm doing much better but the mistakes I make are much easily to correct and have to do with mechanics. I want to do bio TvZ, I can micro well against banelings and infestors, but I don't know how to get a good amount early game, or build up supply to at least defend against zerg, but the thread on it here with the build isn't working for me and I can't get enough units to defend all ins and do the timing correctly. I'm getting scvs and building units on time and constantly, but I can't seem to defend when an all ins coming. Is there a different build order that can go bio TvZ or a FE transition that can do it? 3. (this is TvP) I know how to get the units in TvP, I can defend early game pushes, all ins, and win in the midgame, but the lategame and the units that protoss comes out with are something can I win against too, or survive, but I can't get the engagement right, even if the area we are fighting is good, or even if I have the better units. I always get mmmvg for the lategame, but I can't seem to get the emps, and I barely get nukes, but if I do it won't work either. Usually the Templars storm before I can get the ghosts to emp, or the emps don't go and I lose the battle. I know the first thing to do is stim, or if there's no observer to cloak ghosts and emp, then stim, but if he has observers, what should I do? I stim the mmm, a move the vikings, and try to use ghosts to emp, but it seems like he always gets the first storm, and I die first, or something happens in the engagement when I emp, I still lose. 4. What is the best way to increase map awareness? I've been laddering today and I played a lot of TvTs, and I still won over 50% of them, but there are a lot of drops that I don't see even though I have a sensor tower, or I only see it after he drops and is attacking. Thanks, this thread is very useful to me and I've been moving up and am now in high gold with the answers that you give to other people. I wish more people would start doing things like this! | ||
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