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On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no?
Situations:
Cannons finish before the hatchery - cancel the hatchery after the cannons finish to waste his minerals
1 or 2 cannons finish after the hatchery - you have time to get a queen and block the base with a tumour
3 or more cannons finish after the hatchery - cancel the hatchery, you lose 75 mins, he loses at least 112 mins
I actually answered your question earlier in the thread, with the maths to explain it too.
Its not just a cannon rush that scares me but a cannon rush into chronoed zlots.
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If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard.
I jee-lous of this build 
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On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote:If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard. I jee-lous of this build
If it comes the standard, which I by the way highly doubt, people will just starting patrolling probes at their own expansion and the old metagame is back again.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there. 2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss. Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore.. 2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Yeah, that's low-mid masters. This stuff should never work vs a good protoss.
You can build a hatch at his nat, but you must cancel and have a drone at a 3rd at the same time to start a new hatch.
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Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??)
Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?
(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)
So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)
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do protoss really pylon block/cannon rush when they are doing ffe? that defeats the whole purpose of a FAST expansion
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Yeah they do. Its a standard reaction to a zerg hatch firsting, because it really screws them over.
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On November 10 2011 00:15 straycat wrote:
Why is it so detrimental to the P if a creep tumor gets planted? He can take it out with cannons, right? (right??)
Or is the creep recede time in itself considered big enough of a delay to make it worth it?
(I guess the longest the delay for P exp would be cannon build time + creep recede time (+ possibly pylon build time if s/he need to build a new pylon)
So longest delay 40 + x + 25 seconds, but minimum delay = x, where x is creep recede time that I unfortunately don't know)
No, omg it was mentioned so many times... he will place the tumor on the furthest edge of the creep from the cannon possible so that the detection range won't be even close. He would need to make another cannon near the tumor to kill it, however you can still make another tumor on the 2nd furthest edge xD
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On October 30 2011 08:01 Paraiba wrote:
Doesn't this rely on the proxy hatch not getting scouted?
The proxy hatch forces the protoss to build at least a cannon to kill it before the hatch completes or else he has to deal with zerglings in his base. If he builds a cannon, you can let it complete and then cancel the hatch and come out +75ish minerals and delay his production/tech by some time. If he doesn't build a cannon you can build lings and harass inside his base while droning up on 3 bases, delaying his production and tech.
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Interesting indeed. I have been having troubles with FFE lately, so I'll try this.
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On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there. 2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss. Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore.. 2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters.
Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time.
Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals.
The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch).
I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
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On November 10 2011 04:49 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there. 2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss. On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore.. 2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters. Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time. Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals. The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch). I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ.
Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D
I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.
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On November 10 2011 04:59 EndOfLine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:49 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 09 2011 21:50 EndOfLine wrote:Watch the vids fellas, A lot of your questions are answered there. 2 cannons are enough to prevent the queen if they are placed ASAP. which also means less pressure at your side of the map. However, even if the queen doesn't pop out, the hatch creep spreads! :D, so if you make a drone or lings at the natural hatch (which is now dead) you can makes spines or evos, not at all, By this time you should have another hatch already done, so you still get your natural finished before the toss. On November 09 2011 21:19 Alpina wrote:
so the question is, if you put hatch at his natural and he immediatly puts cannon nearby (which he should do) then is it possible to get queen in time or no? If not then you pretty much lost the game because while you will be cleaning cannons at your natural he will be happily saturating his bases. And the protoss in that vod is like bronze level or? I mean everything he made was pretty much worst he could have made lol. Good protoss will made 1 cannon at your natural and cancel everything else if you cancel hatch, same with 3rd - he gonna make 1 pylon and 1 cannon and you don't know where to expand anymore.. 2 vids are high diamond from season 2. and the other 2 are recent 1200 masters. Actually, it only takes 1 cannon to prevent the queen if the cannon is placed immediately. It ends up being extremely close. I realize that placing the cannon down immediately after the hatch is down is unrealistic, but all I have to do is also attack the hatch with 1 probe, and with 1 cannon placed 10-20 seconds after your hatch then you can't get the queen out in time. Also if you cancel the hatch I don't "waste" 150 minerals on the cannon because I need a cannon there anyway. It's you that wastes 125 minerals. The other thing is that a hatch block at the natural is very common, but the standard route to take is to just cancel it and use the creep to make an evo chamber. If I don't see you cancel the hatch to make an evo chamber, then I'm going to get suspicious, and play it safe and add additional cannons (with the additional cannons timed to finish after the hatch finishes so that I can cancel those if you cancel the hatch). I know I'm sounding a bit theorycrafty (if you do this then I'll do this, etc.) but trust me I'm speaking from experience. I go FFE 100% of my PvZs, and I cannon rush in response to 15 hatch about 90% of the time. I'm also on the same team as CatZ. Theorycrafty is good! This Just as much of a discussion as a guide :D I have recently been playing around with: hatch into evo - and double expanding. Pool, then double expanded, Or just start with 17 hatch 17 hatch, then pool.
Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.
I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.
If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.
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On November 09 2011 23:33 Fuhrmaaj wrote:If this is stable reactionary play then I think it's an overall good shift in the metagame. I didn't like the cannon rushes every time zerg goes hatch first. It might get a little crazy, but it starts with the cannon rush. If protoss doesn't want a hatch in their base, then they can avoid that by not cannon rushing, taking their nexus and playing standard. I jee-lous of this build
I see what you did there.... But I ask -- who needs stability when you have a hatch in their base?
I don't see quite how you'd end up ahead if the protoss were to respond with well timed cannons to kill the proxy hatch. Some have argued that those minerals are wasted, but if the protoss follows that up with a fairly greedy play like tech and taking his nat when the creep recedes, he'll want a cannon or two anyway.
Regardless, this looks hee-larious, and not many P's at my level would respond to it correctly I feel. I will definitely give it a shot
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Theorycraft is ok if you're asking questions. Theorycraft is not ok when you're trying to give advice or make a statement, even in a discussion thread.
I don't think hatch first is safe in ZvP period, and I thought that the economical rewards of it aren't even that great compared to pool first builds. I guess it can be a calculated gamble on big 4 player maps like tal darim where if I scout you last it'll be too late for me to do anything about it, but really it's just not worth it.
If for some reason you do hatch first though you really need the pool asap after it, not double expad. I'm going to follow your canceled expansion drone with a probe and follow it to your 3rd and cannon that as well, and you will never get a 2nd base up until you have lings.
Currently I am able to pull this off most of the time at the 400-600 Master point range (This season, Smurf or Main account) However, perhaps when I start facing top master toss's who see something like this and know what to do asap, I wont be able too.
Regardless, it makes for an exciting game
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EPT
