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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 07:03 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:01 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 freakeh wrote:Possibly 100% proof that he was hacking due to the minimap etc http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/+ Show Spoiler +Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I *believe* I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. *But*, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eB97S.png) If people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. \*\*\*\*\* Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. EDIT AGAIN: Actually, we don't need to test this in other resolutions. If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. **EDIT 4:30 PM: A/some TL player(s) have claimed that they can get better than 1 pixel granularity on the minimap and I believe one player claims to have hit the point that I tried to check. I do want to remind you that I have not yet tried to look at other Spades replays or other instances of clicking (this was simply my first try), so my method is still open to discussion I suppose.** **Right now, the two ways I have proposed to check are  * **1) Seeing if clicks in the fog of war snap onto the minimap grid and are reproduceable at some resolution or** **2) Seeing if close together clicks in the fog of war are impossibly close for a normal resolution on the minimap.** Ok stop talking people its over Seriously how many times do I have to debunk it with my gosu minimap clicking. 
Probably quite a few times, is there any chance a mod could add the counter-proof to the mod note?
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On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something.
I have read every post in this thread, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action.
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On June 07 2012 06:49 Chessz wrote:... seriously, read the thread, it's been covered
I could easily click on 117.9 73.1 on the minimap in my native resolution ( 1920 x 1080 ). Here's the proof:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-264702.jpg)
But as usual, this will get burried in another dozen pages or so of posts that will link to that reddit post to claim that another solid "proof" has been found.
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On June 07 2012 07:04 Rhine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:58 StarStrider wrote:
Start your stream and show us how you can play say, 20 games in a row without ever looking in fog of war, and using your minimap to perform almost every single action. Please do that.
Spades....
This.
This would help us compare and contrast your game play and determine if your games in question were really legit.
This would help you practice for Anaheim.
This would possibly help exhonerate your name.
This would get you stream revenue since the Spades name is huge right now.
WHY would you not do this? Its a win on all fronts.
Please say you'll do it, or say you won't do it and why. Then you can go back to ignoring this thread.
This could be your one last chance to redeem your name Spades. There are reasons not to do it. It's a huge distraction. Now he would have to worry about what people are thinking about his play whenever he does anything. He would be judged on a completely different level than any other streamer would be. His chat would be filled with accusers. It does not lead to a proper training environment. I'm not saying he didn't hack, but to say there's no reason to turn on a stream for everyone to judge you right before a tournament you're preparing for is not accurate.
His play would be affected by worrying about making the right moves and what people would think of him and how they would analyze it?
Then how the hell is he supposed to compete normally in Anaheim at this point?
Further, stream chat can be disabled, that's the first thing I would do if I were him.
He's training anyway (according to him). He may as well stream it.
If he cares about his career at all the reasons not to do it are FAR outweighed by the reasons to do it.
I would like to hear a response from SPADES, as I requested, not anyone else.
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On June 07 2012 07:05 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something. I have read every thread in this post, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action.
The guy who posted the picture 'evidence' is an old PBU named tkrage, look him up, the whole pic is just taken out of context.
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Are people seriously still trying to defend this hacker?
The fuck is wrong with you?
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On June 07 2012 07:05 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something. I have read every thread in this post, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action.
I don't really care about what you think, mate, I told you the truth, if you don't believe it then make a thread about it.
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On June 07 2012 07:05 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something. I have read every thread in this post, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action.
His explanation makes sense though. He could have inverted the colours by mistake showing the blacked out parts as not shopped and the non-blacked out names as shopped. Anyways, its a non-issue to the question in hand.
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Honestly, one of the best ways for him to clear his name would be to show to MLG and kick ass. So it makes sense not to do anything quite yet. It would, at the very least, take away from the public perception that his winrate must be from hacking.
Then he could come back from the event, use the positive attention from his performance, and stream 100% of his games (even taking the stream cheating losses) for a long while to rebuild his reputation. While ideally, if possibly attending more LAN events.
Yes yes streaming doesn't mean you aren't hacking (though Spades could get a webcam), but obviously any sort of screen locking bs is out of the question in that case.
So that would be my Spade gameplan if he's not hacking and he wants to try to clear his name. Do well at MLG then stream 100% of everything possibly with a webcam for at least a few months.
If he shows up to MLG and does awful, well that's gonna be a harder road. But hey, no pressure.
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Not sure why people keep saying the 'burden of proof' is on the accusers .. there has been enough suspicious evidence that half the people here thinks he hacks. The burden of proof is now on Spades to perform well at Anaheim, otherwise its over for him.
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On June 07 2012 07:04 hinnolinn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:03 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 freakeh wrote:Possibly 100% proof that he was hacking due to the minimap etc http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uoc3a/conclusive_proof_that_spades_was_hacking/+ Show Spoiler +Hi guys, tonycheese here. I'm currently a ~950 Masters (on my smurf I suppose), fairly inactive player on the NA server. There has recently been a touch of controversy about the Spades situation. Although it does seem painfully obvious to me that Spades is maphacking in the replays provided when compared to his normal replays, many still call for "conclusive" proof. And there has been fear that conclusive proof cannot and will not exist. Well, I *believe* I have found a way to conclusively detect if camera locks (and therefore maphacks) have been used. The way my detection method works is as follows: When a maphacker's camera is locked, he is looking around in the fog of war, but the replay shows him looking somewhere else. So, the maphacker claims that his actions are done on the minimap, when in reality they are done directly on the normal map in the fog of war. *But*, the minimap is limited to a grid, with the smallest unit of measurement being the pixel. When you click on the normal map you can achieve a much greater level of precision than on the minimap. And as far as I can tell, the minimap's grid is consistent and reproducable. What does this mean? If we can find a point in the replay where the camera is not focused on the spot the maphacking player is clicking, and the player clicks on a spot that does not exist on the minimap grid, that player had the camera locked. In my first attempt, I found a spot that I could not click on the minimap, when Spades' camera was focused on his back third in daybreak, and he sent an scv to build the forward third "on the minimap". Here are the sc2gears logs of my attempts at minimap clicking the spot next to the gas geyser. I will upload replays of these two attempts momentarily. If people cannot find holes in my detection method, I believe we do have a painful, but systematic way of detecting any maphacks where camera locks are used. \*\*\*\*\* Edit: Here are my replay files, not sure how long rapidshare will keep these up, though: https://www.rapidshare.com/#!download|433|104782746|Minimap_clicking.zip|156EDIT: As batterseapower pointed out below, I have not tested minimap clicking in, uh, every available resolution. And I don't really have the means to do it right now, so if someone else is super bored that would be appreciated. However, you can see that the jumps on the map happen in units of 1.4 and .8 when running at 1600x900 resolution, meaning the jumps will still be very large at a larger resolution, meaning this is hopefully still a viable method of detection. EDIT AGAIN: Actually, we don't need to test this in other resolutions. If you look at the two clicks at 12:14, the x coordinates are 117.9 and 117.6. This is only .3 units apart and I believe this is impossible in any known resolution that normal people have on their computers. At 1600x900 my computer jumps 1.4 units for 1 pixel on the minimap. **EDIT 4:30 PM: A/some TL player(s) have claimed that they can get better than 1 pixel granularity on the minimap and I believe one player claims to have hit the point that I tried to check. I do want to remind you that I have not yet tried to look at other Spades replays or other instances of clicking (this was simply my first try), so my method is still open to discussion I suppose.** **Right now, the two ways I have proposed to check are * **1) Seeing if clicks in the fog of war snap onto the minimap grid and are reproduceable at some resolution or** **2) Seeing if close together clicks in the fog of war are impossibly close for a normal resolution on the minimap.** Ok stop talking people its over Seriously how many times do I have to debunk it with my gosu minimap clicking. Probably quite a few times, is there any chance a mod could add the counter-proof to the mod note?
Here I'll even put the relevant posts together.
On June 07 2012 04:59 EtherealDeath wrote:Redone on Daybreak LE. Replay File: http://drop.sc/192624Resolution: 1920x1080 0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1 0:09 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1 0:10 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1 0:11 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1 0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=31.1 0:12 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=31.1 0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.5,y=30.0 0:18 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=133.8,y=30.0 0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2 0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2 0:24 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.7,y=32.2 0:25 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=131.4,y=32.2 I'll try clicking that exact spot again but 0.3 appears to be as narrow as I can get it on Daybreak ;o. Happens to be exactly what was in Spade's replay though.
On June 07 2012 05:10 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 05:00 Shiori wrote:
Has anyone been able to get (117.9, 73.1)? Here you go, on the second click on my first try to find the general area of the point I hit it. http://drop.sc/1926260:15 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=71.3 0:16 areaHaneul Right click; target: x=117.9,y=73.1
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On June 07 2012 07:06 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 06:49 Chessz wrote:... seriously, read the thread, it's been covered I could easily click on 117.9 73.1 on the minimap in my native resolution ( 1920 x 1080 ). Here's the proof: But as usual, this will get burried in another dozen pages or so of posts that will link to that reddit post to claim that another solid "proof" has been found.
Actually in the replay Spades clicks on the minimap twice with an x value difference of .3. This should be impossible to do on the minimap, even if one of them can be clicked.
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Thank you mods, that was very quick!
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On June 07 2012 07:07 Starshaped wrote:
Are people seriously still trying to defend this hacker?
The fuck is wrong with you?
Just in case you think I'm defending, what I'm actually doing is trying to disprove any clearly disprovable evidence, as opposed to defending. Just want to make it so that any evidence we have is not easily disprovable.
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On June 07 2012 07:08 snam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:05 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something. I have read every thread in this post, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action. His explanation makes sense though. He could have inverted the colours by mistake showing the blacked out parts as not shopped and the non-blacked out names as shopped. Anyways, its a non-issue to the question in hand.
Exactly what happend, thank you.
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On June 07 2012 07:11 dmasterding wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:06 Nyast wrote:On June 07 2012 06:49 Chessz wrote:... seriously, read the thread, it's been covered I could easily click on 117.9 73.1 on the minimap in my native resolution ( 1920 x 1080 ). Here's the proof: But as usual, this will get burried in another dozen pages or so of posts that will link to that reddit post to claim that another solid "proof" has been found. Actually in the replay Spades clicks on the minimap twice with an x value difference of .3. This should be impossible to do on the minimap, even if one of them can be clicked.
The post... right above you.... though probably it wasn't posted yet when you posted
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On June 07 2012 07:07 Starshaped wrote:
Are people seriously still trying to defend this hacker?
The fuck is wrong with you?
More like they want to convict him for sure.
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On June 07 2012 07:08 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 07:05 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 07:03 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 07:01 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:58 McFeser wrote:On June 07 2012 06:48 revel8 wrote:On June 07 2012 06:43 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 06:41 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 06:38 Dodgin wrote:On June 07 2012 06:35 toiletCAT wrote:
Well, I couldn't care less if Spades is hacking or not, I'm in this to help stop the community from jumping to conclusions on very serious topics. Seems like you're just one of his friends that registered yesterday to help defend him. man this shit is good. Yep, seems that way. Signed up today "Lives in Qatar" to avoid anyone knowing his identity Tons of his posts are in this thread, including his first I actually live in Denmark, I signed up today because I thought I wanted to interact with the TL community. Since I know you didn't think this claim through, I'll say this anyway; good luck in your attempt to prove that I'm just some goon of his, attempting to help him out. Is there anything else you would like to know that I can't possibly prove to you, one way or another? Explain that picture nonsense then. Lay off his back. You're being an ass It's a fair question. Why would he invent some dodgy evidence and post it here? When it was debunked, he claimed he was 'tired'! WTF is that about? And the same answer goes to you; if you didn't ignore every second post, you could learn something. I have read every thread in this post, mate. Still your explanation for falsifying that picture evidence is lacking. Being tired is not an explanation for such a malicious action. I don't really care about what you think, mate, I told you the truth, if you don't believe it then make a thread about it.
lol! Something like "100% conclusive proof (?) that toiletCAT is a goon!" :D
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On June 07 2012 07:08 Logo wrote:
Honestly, one of the best ways for him to clear his name would be to show to MLG and kick ass. So it makes sense not to do anything quite yet. It would, at the very least, take away from the public perception that his winrate must be from hacking.
Then he could come back from the event, use the positive attention from his performance, and stream 100% of his games (even taking the stream cheating losses) for a long while to rebuild his reputation. While ideally, if possibly attending more LAN events.
Yes yes streaming doesn't mean you aren't hacking (though Spades could get a webcam), but obviously any sort of screen locking bs is out of the question in that case.
So that would be my Spade gameplan if he's not hacking and he wants to try to clear his name. Do well at MLG then stream 100% of everything possibly with a webcam for at least a few months.
If he shows up to MLG and does awful, well that's gonna be a harder road. But hey, no pressure.
Being a rank 1 GM and having an impeccable winrate doesn't always transfer to successful, or even not complete garbage, performances at LAN's. Some people get stage fright, some people don't perform well outside their home comfort zone, some people get sick or tired. My point is, it all depends and we can't really draw any conclusions from that. So it would be pointless to bank on him doing well or not there as to help his case here.
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EPT
