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On September 01 2011 10:30 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:20 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 08:35 Capped wrote:On August 31 2011 11:37 smallerk wrote:
Still hoping blizzard will add a non ranked ladder in HoTS, would make me really happy. A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. On August 31 2011 11:48 Darclite wrote:
I think it is that the game design has many features that make you go "Oh great, I was playing well, but that just happened so the last 20 minutes don't matter."
For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun.
Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun.
Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun.
Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun.
Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun.
Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. I think that you have a pretty silly way of looking at things. I don't think your inability to deal with certain things qualifies them as "poor game design"
Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun?
I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in.
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On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:30 Cade wrote:On September 01 2011 10:20 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 08:35 Capped wrote:On August 31 2011 11:37 smallerk wrote:
Still hoping blizzard will add a non ranked ladder in HoTS, would make me really happy. A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. On August 31 2011 11:48 Darclite wrote:
I think it is that the game design has many features that make you go "Oh great, I was playing well, but that just happened so the last 20 minutes don't matter."
For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun.
Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun.
Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun.
Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun.
Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun.
Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. I think that you have a pretty silly way of looking at things. I don't think your inability to deal with certain things qualifies them as "poor game design" Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun? I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in.
6 pool worked even in BW, and that is the best game ever made... All-ins are part of the game, if you don't want to learn how to hold them off then maybe you shouldn't ladder and just practice with friends all day. Have fun with that.
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On September 01 2011 10:38 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 10:30 Cade wrote:On September 01 2011 10:20 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 08:35 Capped wrote:On August 31 2011 11:37 smallerk wrote:
Still hoping blizzard will add a non ranked ladder in HoTS, would make me really happy. A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. On August 31 2011 11:48 Darclite wrote:
I think it is that the game design has many features that make you go "Oh great, I was playing well, but that just happened so the last 20 minutes don't matter."
For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun.
Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun.
Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun.
Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun.
Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun.
Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. I think that you have a pretty silly way of looking at things. I don't think your inability to deal with certain things qualifies them as "poor game design" Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun? I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in. 6 pool worked even in BW, and that is the best game ever made... All-ins are part of the game, if you don't want to learn how to hold them off then maybe you shouldn't ladder and just practice with friends all day. Have fun with that.
Eh, at least you say "have fun with that"
Once again, I don't think 6 pools are OP. In fact, when I scout it, I am pleased because it is usually pretty easy to hold. But when I scout it last and auto-lose it's not fun.
Also, I enjoyed Brood War, and think there were fewer things like what I am describing. Engagements lasted longer, there was less clumping, etc.
Hell, you don't have to agree with it if you're a purist about sc2 cheese and that's fine. But I don't see why this opinion is so hard to understand.
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How is the ladder fear now for below-Masters players?
Considering that Losses aren't shown until you get into Masters.. are people still bothered by it?
Personally I'm not 
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Once again, I don't think 6 pools are OP. In fact, when I scout it, I am pleased because it is usually pretty easy to hold. But when I scout it last and auto-lose it's not fun.
Also, I enjoyed Brood War, and think there were fewer things like what I am describing. Engagements lasted longer, there was less clumping, etc.
if you dont like being 6 pooled thats unfortunate, the only way to get passed them is to suck it up, and deal with it for now. Once you are at a higher level you will rarely be 6 pooled (because most of the time its an auto-loss for the 6 pooler).
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On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:
Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun?
I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in.
If you refuse to adapt your gameplay in order to deal with strategies such as 6-pooling, then yes, losses are entirely a product of your incompetence. The fact that strategies such as 6 pooling remains in the game is exactly the reason why SC2 is fun. It's simply another legitimate strategy that separates the good players from the terrible ones.
Complaining about 6 pooling because of your refusal the adapt is equivalent to the player who complains that the mineral gather rate is too high in the game because he or she is unable to spend his or her resources at an adequate rate. Or perhaps it's analogous to the player who believes that the army cap should be lowered to 20 from 200 because he or she is unable to produce units at the same rate as a higher tier player.
SC2 is designed to separate players of differing skill levels, and that is what makes it fun. What would destroy the game would be to remove such strategies, like the 6 pool, that make it possible to differentiate between low and high tier players.
By the way, you are not "practicing" by any means if you play with your friends using your own special set of "rules". The term "practice" implies that one will be improving, and quite clearly you will not be. As an example, if I play by my Bronze League House Rules --that is, no attacking allowed before 10 minutes, no cloaked units allowed, no cannons allowed, only ground units allowed -- would I be improving? No. I would be wasting my time, as I am sure you are when playing with your friends.
And finally, while I realize your questions were not directed at me, I will still answer them: Yes, I enjoy these things in SC2, and if it wasn't made abundantly clear before, yes, the possibility of 6 pools on a 4 player map is my idea of fun.
Ladder fear is generated by the fact that players are unable to accept their own incompetence. No, it's rather unfortunate, but we can't all be the best. Stop pretending otherwise, and stop expecting to win every game.
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I don't understand ladder fear, but I do understand the fear of playing badly on the ladder. When I get up in the morning and feel well rested, grab a coffee, chill out for a bit, not stressed or worried about anything in the world, then I'm like "let's fuckin ladder bitches!!!!"
But when I'm tired, pissed off about something, just not in a good state of mind, I sometimes don't feel like laddering because I know I probably won't play my best.
However even if this is the kind of fear you feel it's still silly. Just get over it and play some games. In the end it benefits you and you'll be a better player in the long run. It's not like poker where playing on tilt costs you money. It just costs you ladder points -- and more you lose, the easier they are to get back 
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On September 01 2011 11:00 1.01 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:
Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun?
I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in. If you refuse to adapt your gameplay in order to deal with strategies such as 6-pooling, then yes, losses are entirely a product of your incompetence. The fact that strategies such as 6 pooling remains in the game is exactly the reason why SC2 is fun. It's simply another legitimate strategy that separates the good players from the terrible ones. Complaining about 6 pooling because of your refusal the adapt is equivalent to the player who complains that the mineral gather rate is too high in the game because he or she is unable to spend his or her resources at an adequate rate. Or perhaps it's analogous to the player who believes that the army cap should be lowered to 20 from 200 because he or she is unable to produce units at the same rate as a higher tier player. SC2 is designed to separate players of differing skill levels, and that is what makes it fun. What would destroy the game would be to remove such strategies, like the 6 pool, that make it possible to differentiate between low and high tier players. By the way, you are not "practicing" by any means if you play with your friends using your own special set of "rules". The term "practice" implies that one will be improving, and quite clearly you will not be. As an example, if I play by my Bronze League House Rules --that is, no attacking allowed before 10 minutes, no cloaked units allowed, no cannons allowed, only ground units allowed -- would I be improving? No. I would be wasting my time, as I am sure you are when playing with your friends.
Once again (wow), I don't think they're overpowered or hard to hold when I scout them (I said "when I scout last"). I am not saying I am incapable of holding them. I am saying that whether or not I hold them, I don't enjoy the game.
My point about 6 pooling was that (if you scout it last) it is pretty much over, and I don't like that as a part of the game. What you said about "adapting my gameplay" doesn't make much sense, as I would not play completely standard if I scouted a 6 pool. When I practice with my friends and we practice the other parts of the game (you know, like what happens after the third minute), I enjoy it more. That is my point. The thread was about ladder fear. I said I don't like laddering because I don't have fun playing against what I encounter. I also said that what bothers me more is practicing a build and never getting a chance to use it in a ladder session because of these cheeses.
Also, your rules are a bit of a stretch from what I said. I mentioned a few cheeses. I don't mind being pressured at most times, dropped, attacked by air units, attacked by cloaked units as a part of the game (as in that getting banshees isn't my opponent's only goal and he has no follow-up), seeing cannons (idk what your point was there), etc. In fact, there are very few passive players I practice with.
I don't get why everyone is hearing what they want to hear. It's a way I feel, I don't see why it's wrong lol.
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I think its pretty important to respect other peoples opinions and not impose its one way or the high way according to your own perspective. The people that dont' mind getting 6 pooled or scv/rine rush'd or cannon'd in will continue to play ladder. We can all agree that these rushes are part of the game and it happens. The part where non competitive gamers come in is here:
We live in a competitive world. From grade school we are indoctrinated into a society where the most of something counts. This seems irrational sometimes that people value quantity over quality but just looking at a report card those little letters and numbers instill in all of us a way of feeling about self worth. Getting good grades is fun and drives you to do better at that subject because of the positive feedback you get. On the other hand if you don't do well most people (gamers included) tend to avoid those games, situations , races that reflect poorly on their self esteem/concept of success. The ranked ladder system as it currently stands is analogous.
Imagine yourself in the other persons shoes and try to understand. The vast majority of gamers do not strive to be #1 in the world at an eSport. Its a casual (hopefully fun) thing they do with friends. If you provide an eSports competitive atmosphere ..GREAT. Now try to imagine it for the majority of those that dont' have that burning desire to win every game and never quit. I hope this sheds a little understanding on this topic on the need to provide a better mechanism for casual gamers to find non ranked games. It could even be as simple as a single button next to the Find Quick Match button.
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On September 01 2011 10:46 Sukari wrote:How is the ladder fear now for below-Masters players? Considering that Losses aren't shown until you get into Masters.. are people still bothered by it? Personally I'm not
Nope. Laddering more than I have in season 2. Everytime I go on a lose streak its not too bad cos I can bring up my replay stats and see that I am still winning more (:
Alot of people just dont want to ladder cos they have this perception of sc2 ladder as a static game. So when they have been inactive for a month then go back to ladder and lose to some allin or cheeky new build that they think the game is bad since they arent being rewarded with wins for their last year of effort.
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On September 01 2011 11:12 ziggurat wrote:I don't understand ladder fear, but I do understand the fear of playing badly on the ladder. When I get up in the morning and feel well rested, grab a coffee, chill out for a bit, not stressed or worried about anything in the world, then I'm like "let's fuckin ladder bitches!!!!" But when I'm tired, pissed off about something, just not in a good state of mind, I sometimes don't feel like laddering because I know I probably won't play my best. However even if this is the kind of fear you feel it's still silly. Just get over it and play some games. In the end it benefits you and you'll be a better player in the long run. It's not like poker where playing on tilt costs you money. It just costs you ladder points -- and more you lose, the easier they are to get back
ziggy from zfz sof2?
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I used to be a bit hesitant when it came to ladder, yet the wise words of Day9 convinced me that losing is sometime MORE helpful and insightful then gaining ladder points.
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I completely agree with OP. Sometimes I'm just not mentally up for ladder (I'm tired, drunk, etc.) but at the same time I don't want to play vs. people in silver league all day on random custom games (I'm masters P). They need to either completely revamp the custom game interface, or do as the OP said, and allow for unranked laddering. There's no reason not to. It will get more people playing the game actively, and allow for practice vs. opponents of similar skill level. There is no down side.
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On September 01 2011 10:46 Sukari wrote:How is the ladder fear now for below-Masters players? Considering that Losses aren't shown until you get into Masters.. are people still bothered by it? Personally I'm not
Honestly I'm not afraid of losing. I'm in Platinum currently with close to a 70% win rate this season (38-18). I don't know what it is but I'll tell you that pressing the "Find Match" button is difficult for me UNLESS I just lost a game..if I lose I usually continue to requeue until I win.
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people dont like to lose. it doesnt matter if they gain or lose nothing. losing is unaccepable to everyone.
People like to think that they will be judged by the other person if they lose. Or if someone looks at match history or what league they are in and think lesser of that person because of it.
Or you have the people like me with confidence issues and overall poor mentality, or various other problems. I hate losing. I cant stand it. If something is challenging to me I just run away from it every single time. Something that challenges me is not comfortable. I dont like doing things that I am confused about or that I dont know about.
Or you have the people that are traditionally bad at every game they play and spend the majority of the time taking last place in a competition or even not winning a raffle. People hate losing. People are greedy. We all want everything for ourselves. We ALL WANT to be in HuK's or Idras position where they get paid just to play or show up at events. But we cant have that and we know that, so we have no motivation for playing because what will it do in the long run? nothing.
There comes a point where this game is not enjoyable anymore. Everyone hits that point no matter who you are, but only those with a reason to keep playing still do. Average people that get nothing out of it like me end up quitting.
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Actually, I've found out it's not ladder fear that keeps me from laddering. It's that if I ladder, I have to deal with thousands of idiots throwing stupid cheeses and all-ins at me. A couple days ago I started to play custom 1v1s against friends of similar skill level. It's just so much more entertaining, really. Even with the occasional cheese/all-in, I feel like it doesn't bother me as much because I know and like that person anyway.
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On September 01 2011 10:46 Sukari wrote:How is the ladder fear now for below-Masters players? Considering that Losses aren't shown until you get into Masters.. are people still bothered by it? Personally I'm not
I don't ladder much, so I don't have fear and I wouldn't understand why one could have fear. The change was really bad, because now you don't know for sure how good your win/loose ratio is and that can be rally frustrating
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Ladder Fear. I get this from time to time and it's usually the indicator for me to stop playing for a bit.
I get this especially if I have just reached a new highest position on the ladder and don't wanna risk it or if I have a winning streak. Losing then almost feels like a relieve.
What I do against ladder fear is basically the same argumentation I use to justify playing random: At my particular skill level it really doesn't matter all that much, as there are no such things as imbalances. Often times there are people just straight up better than you, so once in a while you WILL loose. Also only mass games will really get you better, there is really no point in caring so much about you individual position.
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On August 31 2011 10:59 Humdrum wrote:
As a therapist for a mental health clinic, reading these comments is so painful that I have to physically stop myself from cursing at every person who is trying to dismiss another human's fear as irrational. I could write for days on how uniformed the majority of you are about fear, the rationale, and its legitimacy. Instead, I'll leave a very simple sentence.
You are wrong and there is absolutely nothing wrong with their completely rational fear.
It's a game. if you're below masters your losses aren't even shown. Let me repeat: your losses aren't even shown. Ladder fear is ridiculous and some of these posts are simply embarrassing. First world problems indeed.
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Just play the ladder and you'll feel better. Don't even think about it.
Seriously.
Don't even think about it, if you lose who cares. If you win great. It's not like anybody is going to judge you, or you're going to be given a fuck you from Blizzard if you lose.
If you lose a lot of games, you get matched with players at your skill level and you can get better.
If you lose a lot of games to cheese and all ins, well I guess you're going to have to play good better rather than just bitch that people cheese and all in, because you'll meet other players who can hold cheeses and all ins.
People overthink this shit: JUST PLAY DAMN IT.
stop making excuses for yourself jesus christ get over it.
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EPT
