EPTCould ladder fear be hurting Starcraft 2? - Page 25
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
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Athrun
Philippines16 Posts
I am Masters in SEA and NA. When I search in NA, I actually get to play vs other Masters due to the huge player base, and generally they are of a skill level that you could expect from a master leaguer in that server, so it's not a problem there. However in SEA, I only get to play vs other masters on about 1 of 4 searches. The wait time is often long, and most of the time I end up playing vs some high diamond. I check my league and I notice that a lot the people in my division have played less than 50 games this season. It seems a lot of masters in SEA have that fear of laddering and an even worse fear of losing and eventual demotion to diamond. | ||
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julianto
2292 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:28 envisioN . wrote: I think that a lot of people have this fear of the 1v1 ladder because its just you and your opponent. If you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself, which makes people unhappy when they lose. In a team game, it is quite easy to blame a loss on your teammates while saying "but I outplayed the other team." Some people really hate having 100% of the responsibility while others love it. Just thinking that I may lose a game due to my teammates is the reason why I'd rather play 1v1 than team games. You can get over the initial scare by playing a custom game on Shattered Temple for example. It's still random. But the thought that it doesn't affect my league or rank helps me to start playing. After one custom, I switch to ladder. | ||
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smallerk
897 Posts
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hicser
United Kingdom109 Posts
This is what i do when i get fear over trivial stuff, just put things into perspective. | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun. Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun. Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun. Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun. Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun. Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
I like the idea of playing "hidden ladder/hidden ELO" games and think it's a good one, but I think if it were done it should function in the following way: -Matches are set up exactly as per on the ladder (i.e. same ladder maps, same matchmaking for people with ELO in the same range as you) -Your hidden ELO/MMR adjusts up and down with wins and losses EXACTLY as on the ladder, in fact it should actually affect your ladder ranking when you go back to "ranked/shown" ladder. The reason I think that is important is that otherwise people will improve their skill playing a bunch of unranked games, and when they return to "ranked" laddering if their rating was not adjusted from the other games, they might be two or three leagues of skill above where they were when they stopped playing regular ladder and effectively be smurfing their old rank. So if you were gold, and actually "unranked" laddered your way up to diamond level skill, when you play regular ladder again, you will be matched up against a diamond player and as soon as you finish that game, bingo you are placed diamond, win or lose. Likewise if you just tried a bunch of cheese with low win rates and worked your way down to bronze it would show the demotion when you finally started ranked ladder again. This just removes some of the pain of you seeing yourself be demoted trying a bunch of crazy stuff. It would be nice though if you had the option in unranked ladder to work on a given race matchup. One of my major deterrents to ladder is that I hate ZvZ and that I might have to slog through 4 straight of those (even though I usually wind up having fun despite myself and actually do a bit better in those than the other matchups, lol). Eh who am I kidding, I'd probably be reluctant to ladder even with an unranked system. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:28 envisioN . wrote: I think that a lot of people have this fear of the 1v1 ladder because its just you and your opponent. If you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself, which makes people unhappy when they lose. In a team game, it is quite easy to blame a loss on your teammates while saying "but I outplayed the other team." Some people really hate having 100% of the responsibility while others love it. Wrong, you have the race and the game to blame. Most people ive seen rage at the game and the race when they lose, and then me for playing easy race -.-. | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
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Beorning
United States243 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:28 envisioN . wrote: I think that a lot of people have this fear of the 1v1 ladder because its just you and your opponent. If you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself, which makes people unhappy when they lose. In a team game, it is quite easy to blame a loss on your teammates while saying "but I outplayed the other team." Some people really hate having 100% of the responsibility while others love it. My friend is exactly like that, and he doesnt want to admit to himself that he would probably be bronze in 1v1 (even though hes gold or plat in team games) and he plays me sometimes (and has never one a game when i main race) he refuses to 1v1 ladder though, hes quite insecure as a person so that probably has something to do with the reason he wont ladder (even though he loves the game, and he loves the idea of 1v1, watches all the gsl's etc) You can probably tell alot about a person by whether they 1v1 or not. (if it seems like they are not 1v1 only because of ladder fear) | ||
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Pzar
New Zealand46 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:31 Athrun wrote: In a server with such a small number of players, ladder fear actually ruins the ladder for those who are active. I am Masters in SEA and NA. When I search in NA, I actually get to play vs other Masters due to the huge player base, and generally they are of a skill level that you could expect from a master leaguer in that server, so it's not a problem there. However in SEA, I only get to play vs other masters on about 1 of 4 searches. The wait time is often long, and most of the time I end up playing vs some high diamond. I check my league and I notice that a lot the people in my division have played less than 50 games this season. It seems a lot of masters in SEA have that fear of laddering and an even worse fear of losing and eventual demotion to diamond. I don't think the SEA situation is so much ladder fear as it is "why wait 10+ minutes for a mismatch when I can just go play on an active ladder?" And most people I know quit playing because 19 games out of 20 the other guy is doing a 1 base all in. Not because they care where their rank lies. | ||
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ziggurat
Canada847 Posts
On August 31 2011 08:48 lorkac wrote: It does.... If you lose a bit, you get matched with lower level players If you win a bit, you get matched with higher level players You're actually in the system you're asking for. Maybe what you're asking for is a button to choose when you can play against "lower level" players--but you can already do that by just losing a bunch of games for a day or two. Not exactly. The way the system works right now is that I always get matched against people who are roughly my level. I'd say that 99% of my games are rated as "even match" on the ladder. It's been over a month since i've had a match that wasn't "even". I am suggesting a system that would give more variety. I think I would like a break down something like: 75% even matches 20% one player "slightly favored" 5% one player "favored" To me this would just be more fun. As I said before, I enjoy playing against better players. If I put up a good fight, even if I lose I still feel satisfied with the game. And I also enjoy playing weaker players and (hopefully) crushing them. I agree that most games should still be against people who are close to my level. I just think this change would make the ladder more fun for everyone. I used to play competitive chess fairly seriously, and in a typical chess tournament you normally get to play people of all different levels. In the early rounds especially you play a lot of unbalanced matches (in a typical swiss system open tournament). This is fun, and it's also nice to play a much better player and be able to learn something from them. I also found that mismatches tend to be more friendly. I might play a very highly rated player and lose, and then after the game the better player might spend half an hour talking to me, going over the game, suggesting ways that I might have improved my play. This was one of the great things about tournaments. I could even imagine that happening on the ladder too ... like if I beat a really bad player, after the game I'd most likely be happy to give them some pointers on their play. And if I lose to a better player I wouldn't likely whine about imbalance since I know the player is better. Anyway I'm just putting down my thoughts in a fairly disorganized way here. But I'd be curious to know if other people think thisa would be fun, or if the rest of you all just like playing "even matches" all the time? Edit: typos | ||
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matiK23
United States963 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:37 hicser wrote: This is just my opinion and it might sound harsh or that im a douche but if your scared of laddering really put things into perspective for yourself, think about life and all the scary shit that can happen when you go through it, think of the fear a child in the congo feels when he is kidnapped from his family and made to be a child soldier, think of the fear of a man who has just lost his job and has no idea how he is going to pay the rent, then realise how utterly ridiculous it is to be scared to play a video game. This is what i do when i get fear over trivial stuff, just put things into perspective. So basically what you're saying is that this is obviously a first world problem/crisis. I don't have ladder fear, but I'm not going to say I look foward to playing these cheesing douche bags on ladder. I realize it's all the same throughout the leagues, but I feel like Platinum has it BAD. I mean what the fuck. Isn't this the level where you actually learn to play the game? | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
On August 31 2011 11:37 smallerk wrote: Still hoping blizzard will add a non ranked ladder in HoTS, would make me really happy. A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. On August 31 2011 11:48 Darclite wrote: I think it is that the game design has many features that make you go "Oh great, I was playing well, but that just happened so the last 20 minutes don't matter." For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun. Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun. Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun. Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun. Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun. Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On September 01 2011 08:35 Capped wrote: A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3721 Posts
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SgtPepper
United States568 Posts
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:20 Darclite wrote: I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. I think that you have a pretty silly way of looking at things. I don't think your inability to deal with certain things qualifies them as "poor game design" | ||
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