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On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:30 Cade wrote:On September 01 2011 10:20 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 08:35 Capped wrote:On August 31 2011 11:37 smallerk wrote:
Still hoping blizzard will add a non ranked ladder in HoTS, would make me really happy. A non ranked ladder? that isnt even possible -_- - a system where you can find random opponents in the same fashino as a ladder game is but thats what customs were designed for - albeit poorly considering if your mid league like i am (plat) you either get bashed or bash 80% of the time. On August 31 2011 11:48 Darclite wrote:
I think it is that the game design has many features that make you go "Oh great, I was playing well, but that just happened so the last 20 minutes don't matter."
For example, if you scout your opponent last in a PvZ where they 6 pool, you die, and there is little you can do about it. It isn't fun.
Things like banshees and dts coming into your mineral line and forcing you to gg aren't fun.
Watching your incredibly expensive army get ripped to shreds after it gets EMPed is not fun.
Getting a ball of blink stalkers chain-fungaled to death by 3 infestors is not fun.
Practicing a build over and over and over and over and over, then getting 6 pooled, 1/1/1ed, proxy 2 gated, 1/1/1ed, roach/ling all-ined, 3 rax rine/scv all-ined, and 1/1/1ed again and never being able to use your build is not fun.
Yes, most of them are possible to stop, but all of them make laddering less enjoyable and more frustrating. I used to think I feared the ladder. Now I realize I just don't enjoy it. You dont hate ladder, your sad because you think everything is imba and hate the game. I don't think they are imba, I think they are poorly designed. 6 pools aren't imba. Banshees and dts aren't imba. Infestors and EMPs are slightly imba. Most of those all-ins aren't imba. You kind of missed the point dude. I was talking about game design, not balance. I think that you have a pretty silly way of looking at things. I don't think your inability to deal with certain things qualifies them as "poor game design" Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun? I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in.
i LOVE getting 6pooled, specifically because it's so easy to hold off
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On September 01 2011 11:14 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:00 1.01 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:
Do you enjoy those things? Is a game where you get 6 pooled where you scout last your idea of fun?
I'm not saying they're impossible to deal with or overpowered. I'm not saying I'm incompetent. I'm saying that when I ladder, and that happens, I don't enjoy the game even if I hold it, and thus, I don't ladder. I'd rather practice with friends who won't 6 pool or rine/scv all-in. If you refuse to adapt your gameplay in order to deal with strategies such as 6-pooling, then yes, losses are entirely a product of your incompetence. The fact that strategies such as 6 pooling remains in the game is exactly the reason why SC2 is fun. It's simply another legitimate strategy that separates the good players from the terrible ones. Complaining about 6 pooling because of your refusal the adapt is equivalent to the player who complains that the mineral gather rate is too high in the game because he or she is unable to spend his or her resources at an adequate rate. Or perhaps it's analogous to the player who believes that the army cap should be lowered to 20 from 200 because he or she is unable to produce units at the same rate as a higher tier player. SC2 is designed to separate players of differing skill levels, and that is what makes it fun. What would destroy the game would be to remove such strategies, like the 6 pool, that make it possible to differentiate between low and high tier players. By the way, you are not "practicing" by any means if you play with your friends using your own special set of "rules". The term "practice" implies that one will be improving, and quite clearly you will not be. As an example, if I play by my Bronze League House Rules --that is, no attacking allowed before 10 minutes, no cloaked units allowed, no cannons allowed, only ground units allowed -- would I be improving? No. I would be wasting my time, as I am sure you are when playing with your friends. Once again (wow), I don't think they're overpowered or hard to hold when I scout them (I said "when I scout last"). I am not saying I am incapable of holding them. I am saying that whether or not I hold them, I don't enjoy the game. My point about 6 pooling was that (if you scout it last) it is pretty much over, and I don't like that as a part of the game. What you said about "adapting my gameplay" doesn't make much sense, as I would not play completely standard if I scouted a 6 pool. When I practice with my friends and we practice the other parts of the game (you know, like what happens after the third minute), I enjoy it more. That is my point. The thread was about ladder fear. I said I don't like laddering because I don't have fun playing against what I encounter. I also said that what bothers me more is practicing a build and never getting a chance to use it in a ladder session because of these cheeses. Also, your rules are a bit of a stretch from what I said. I mentioned a few cheeses. I don't mind being pressured at most times, dropped, attacked by air units, attacked by cloaked units as a part of the game (as in that getting banshees isn't my opponent's only goal and he has no follow-up), seeing cannons (idk what your point was there), etc. In fact, there are very few passive players I practice with. I don't get why everyone is hearing what they want to hear. It's a way I feel, I don't see why it's wrong lol.
Solution: when your first scouting probe gets to the first base and doesn't see anything, send out a second probe to the base that the first probe will scout last. then you'll see the 6pool coming early enough, on any map.
If you keep scouting after you build your pylon, keep scouting 6pols last, and keep losing because of it, it's not fair to blame the game for it, since there's an easy way to prevent it that you just refuse to implement for some reason. it's like if someone keeps hitting you in the head - do you sit there and complain that they're hitting you in the head, or do you stop them from doing it?
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wat bout blizzard make an option for the player to freeze unfreeze the mmr or the looses so either player can go on ladder w/o the fear of being demoted or promoted? its a win win for the blizzard thou.
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On September 01 2011 17:55 achilless wrote:
wat bout blizzard make an option for the player to freeze unfreeze the mmr or the looses so either player can go on ladder w/o the fear of being demoted or promoted? its a win win for the blizzard thou.
then there wouldn't be a ladder =.=
it's quite silly how people put so much pride into losing and winning; just get over yourselves and fucking play.
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I don't blame people who have anxieties about laddering 1v1. One of the reasons people play games is because being in control just feels good; it's got a lot to do with pride in a sense. But SC2 is different; it's a game where you learn and grow from losses. I've shied away from ladder before (and still sort of do), and I'd love to see such a ladder, which "does not rank," be made, but it's not necessary and almost pointless for those who truly want to get better at this game.
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lots of close minded individuals who can't see and understand other's point of view.
telling people to "get over it" won't make them more likely to play, nor will it help with keeping the casual playerbase continue to play the game. It just makes you look like an arrogant tool. Fact is most people don't like to be ranked. Since the casual playerbase is the one that a game really needs to care about in order to stay healthy, alot of design should be there to keep the incentive for them to play.
How would it feel if your scores on miniature golf was ranked and posted on the bulletin to everyone on that field? It won't take long at all for that business to lose a good chunk of its customers. People go to those places to have fun (just like games), not to be competitive.
When things are assigned values and becomes competitive, only those hardcore will go at it and rest will stray away to something more casual and fun. People like to feel good and have the allusion that they're doing well; At least better than average. That's why most big successful games these days are not ranked, and matches you to those your skill level to give you the illusion that you're better than average (50% wins). It wouldn't hurt starcraft to have an unranked options as well and ranked for those that are ready.
It is a game (seems like alot of you miss this) afterall, it should not be stressful.
Get over yourself, and try to see things from the other people's point of view
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On September 01 2011 19:10 iky43210 wrote:
lots of close minded individuals who can't see and understand other's point of view.
telling people to "get over it" won't make them more likely to play, nor will it help with keeping the casual playerbase continue to play the game. It just makes you look like an arrogant tool. Fact is most people don't like to be ranked. Since the casual playerbase is the one that a game really needs to care about in order to stay healthy, alot of design should be there to keep the incentive for them to play.
How would it feel if your scores on miniature golf was ranked and posted on the bulletin to everyone on that field? It won't take long at all for that business to lose a good chunk of its customers. People go to those places to have fun (just like games), not to be competitive.
When things are assigned values and becomes competitive, only those hardcore will go at it and rest will stray away to something more casual and fun. People like to feel good and have the allusion that they're doing well; At least better than average. That's why most big successful games these days are not ranked, and matches you to those your skill level to give you the illusion that you're better than average (50% wins). It wouldn't hurt starcraft to have an unranked options as well and ranked for those that are ready.
It is a game (seems like alot of you miss this) afterall, it should not be stressful.
Get over yourself, and try to see things from the other people's point of view
except if you play unranked matches, then you have situations where bronzers are put up against master players, which isn't fun for anybody
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On September 01 2011 19:46 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 19:10 iky43210 wrote:
lots of close minded individuals who can't see and understand other's point of view.
telling people to "get over it" won't make them more likely to play, nor will it help with keeping the casual playerbase continue to play the game. It just makes you look like an arrogant tool. Fact is most people don't like to be ranked. Since the casual playerbase is the one that a game really needs to care about in order to stay healthy, alot of design should be there to keep the incentive for them to play.
How would it feel if your scores on miniature golf was ranked and posted on the bulletin to everyone on that field? It won't take long at all for that business to lose a good chunk of its customers. People go to those places to have fun (just like games), not to be competitive.
When things are assigned values and becomes competitive, only those hardcore will go at it and rest will stray away to something more casual and fun. People like to feel good and have the allusion that they're doing well; At least better than average. That's why most big successful games these days are not ranked, and matches you to those your skill level to give you the illusion that you're better than average (50% wins). It wouldn't hurt starcraft to have an unranked options as well and ranked for those that are ready.
It is a game (seems like alot of you miss this) afterall, it should not be stressful.
Get over yourself, and try to see things from the other people's point of view except if you play unranked matches, then you have situations where bronzers are put up against master players, which isn't fun for anybody
unranked match will still have matchmaking, just the rating isn't shown and there's no division to fight for. This is featured in most of recent popular games and is by far the most popular play mode over ranked in their respective games.
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I love playing 1v1, but I hate ladder for not being able to choose match-ups. I don't even mind the cheese, since defense and scouting are always things I can work on; however, I just hate losing a tough game and queuing a bunch of zvz's in a row, or some stupid close position shattered temple deal. I guess I get ladder stress.
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On September 01 2011 19:10 iky43210 wrote:
It is a game (seems like alot of you miss this) afterall, it should not be stressful.
Lol the mental approach of people with this 'ladder fear' is just completly off.
1. If you think its just a game then why even have stress (<-- this should be all casual players)
2. If you take it seriously then your approach can't be omg /endlife when I lose a game.
So basically what people with 'ladder fear' are doing:
Take it seriously but scared to practice and get better.
there is an obvious contradiction in this attitude that needs to be fixed if you wanna get better. Basically the fix is get over yourself if you wanna be good stop caring about results and start practicing/losing. If you dont care about becoming the best then stop whining about a ranking that should be meaningless to you anyway.
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Why dont people fear playing say Black Ops even tough they are "terrible", yet fear SC2?
Because its 1on1? Well most of my friends play fighters online which are also 1on1, Third Strike Online, Tekken 6, Marvel etc. Yet SC2 still strikes fear into them
The big reason is the social aspect, i have recorded over 6000 matches in Tekken 5 DR Online, and have recieved 0 messages, 0 insults, 0 people raging at me.
In SC2 i cant play 3-4 games without getting 1 guy who makes it his bussiness to be an asshat, its not that i am offended, its that i am bored looking at it.
Having an option to remove all incomming text, chat in SC2 would make ladder far more accessible for people who just want to listen to music and play the damn game, the actual RTS game called Starcraft 2, and not play "Who can bust out the most 4chan memes in a row!".
I understand there is a certain joy in going "U MAD BROSKI!?" but if you enjoy that kind of crap then just enable chat and go to town with it.
That is my suggestion to solving this problem
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This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cQ87h.jpg)
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- There is ladder fear. Of course there is. Read through the previously mentioned thread and you’ll find many people claiming that they are too afraid to play 1vs1 ladder. But the very important point is: these people already do care about the ladder. Although many of them might be rather bad players, they are already involved in the competitive scene. They try to get better, they try to improve and they fail. And then they stop playing, because they are unable to face their own failures and mistakes. It is their decision to stop playing. But this does not hurt SC2. It’s the natural process of “separating the wheat from the chaff”. For instance, not everybody who starts playing football or chess competitively will still do it after he/she has lost a couple of tournaments
- Casual players just don’t bother about ladder fear. They play the campaign. Then they play a couple of ladder games. They don’t care about build orders or about improving their micro and macro. They just win or lose with 30apm, build Thors only or think that the Mothership is the holy grail of the protoss. They enjoy SC2 and then they quit playing, since there is a new fancy game released.
This is what hurts SC2 most!
- For casual players SC2 is a rather boring game. You build a couple of units in your base and send them to the other base and then your units crush the other units or the other units crush you.
The real fun begins when you begin to care about strategies, tactics, improving yourself, tournaments etc.
- So what? You might think. Of course there are thousands of casual players, who will quit their new game eventually. That’s right. But among them there are hundreds of potential SC2 nerds, who just do not know how awesome SC2 is yet. If Blizzards wants the community to grow consistently, they have to find ways to involve the casual player in the competitive scene. They have to show them somehow how great it feels when you improve, how exciting it can be to watch tournament games and how rewarding it is to achieve your own goals after months of practice.
- My point is no secret. Not at all. Blizzard already initiated the GSL or oftentimes they showcase other tournaments in the BNET 2.0 browser. To my mind, this is just not enough. The playerbase will eventually decrease. They have to find better ways to attract more players to their game and prevent them from leaving.
tl;dr: Blizzard has to make the casual players fear the ladder. Otherwise, the playerbase will bleed out eventually.
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On September 01 2011 19:48 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 19:46 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 19:10 iky43210 wrote:
lots of close minded individuals who can't see and understand other's point of view.
telling people to "get over it" won't make them more likely to play, nor will it help with keeping the casual playerbase continue to play the game. It just makes you look like an arrogant tool. Fact is most people don't like to be ranked. Since the casual playerbase is the one that a game really needs to care about in order to stay healthy, alot of design should be there to keep the incentive for them to play.
How would it feel if your scores on miniature golf was ranked and posted on the bulletin to everyone on that field? It won't take long at all for that business to lose a good chunk of its customers. People go to those places to have fun (just like games), not to be competitive.
When things are assigned values and becomes competitive, only those hardcore will go at it and rest will stray away to something more casual and fun. People like to feel good and have the allusion that they're doing well; At least better than average. That's why most big successful games these days are not ranked, and matches you to those your skill level to give you the illusion that you're better than average (50% wins). It wouldn't hurt starcraft to have an unranked options as well and ranked for those that are ready.
It is a game (seems like alot of you miss this) afterall, it should not be stressful.
Get over yourself, and try to see things from the other people's point of view except if you play unranked matches, then you have situations where bronzers are put up against master players, which isn't fun for anybody unranked match will still have matchmaking, just the rating isn't shown and there's no division to fight for. This is featured in most of recent popular games and is by far the most popular play mode over ranked in their respective games.
so you're asking for the exact same thing as ladder, but without the little icon? but wouldn't you know roughtly what league you are when you see yourself matched against people who are in silver, gold, platinum etc?
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i ask because it should be clear to you and everyone that, aside from the little icon and ranking you see when you queue up, you're not forced to pay attention to the competition whatsoever. you can ignore it for the rest of your life.
so at the end of the day what you people are asking for is a checkbox that says "don't remind me that i'm in bronze/silver"
which is fine, but call it what it is please
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On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points.
tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help
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On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help
Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass?
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I have ladder fear, then just before I got to bed I get ladder withdrawal and immediately log on an play some games! I also get a similar urge after sex... much to the annoyance of my girlfriend...
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When I've just got ZvZ'd 10 times in a row, yeah ladder fear.
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Oh i'm not the only one to fear playing in ladder *_*
I really though i was alone...
I love starcraft2, just like i loved starcraft1, but since the beta i have hard time playing. I'm always afraid of losing, losing points, and falling down to the abyss of my league.
That's stupid, i know, but it's really hard to overcome. I stopped playing during season2 because i feared i would lose too many games and fall to gold league (i placed platinium).
But heh, now that i play a lot more, i'm really happy i'm not afraid of losing anymore !
This game is so much fun, you don't want to miss this fun because of some potential bad games :D
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EPT
