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On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cQ87h.jpg) tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass?
+10000
I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading.
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They taken away how many loss a person has, how much more do you want?
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I think it's perfectly normal that you are afraid to lose. It's actually a good thing, atleast for me it makes me want to work harder to not lose matches. Any time I get on a 3+ loss streak I just stop for a while, and come back to it later with a fresh mindset.
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On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading.
I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE.
This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions.
A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too.
It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself.
In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players.
Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it.
edit: grammar
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I personally have stopped laddering because of ladder fear. It grows the longer you stay away from the game because now I feel I am no where near skill-wise to my ladder rank. I think it does keep A LOT of people from playing the game. Those that don't want blizzard to baby its players, you have to acknowledge the FACT that many many players stop because of ladder fear. If you are ok with the SC2 community shrinking, then fine support the current system. But if you want SC2 to retain a larger percentage of its players, then you should support a change.
Posting here saying ladder fear is irrational are correct, it is so, but players like myself will feel it anyways and stop playing because of that.
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Fear the ladder? Don't play and stop ruining ESPORT and TL for other people who likes to ladder :D
I have no idea why do people take ladder so seriously when it really doesn't matter. What matters is that you are having fun from the game and learning the game, not the ladder points :\
People that have ladder fear are perfectly fine individuals, they just need a better mindset about ladder. Most importantly, they need to stop caring about losses, or else a unranked ladder won't help in anyways. "More GG, more skillz. - White-ra"
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Imo people who are scared to ladder misinterpret the game design of the ladder.
"oh i don't want to ladder because I'll get cheesed, I only want to play legit"
-Cheese is a legit strategy, and if you think you're the better player because you want to play macro games, i'm sorry for you. Defending cheese is about good reaction and good scouting, while many people who lose to it blame the other player. This one is really common.
"I don't want to ladder because I don't want to lose"
-Why do you play the game? This one really really really bugs me. It's as if you'd never want to attempt anything in life unless before hand you knew you were going to be successful. It's as if anytime you make a mistake, the entire world stops to laugh at you. And both of the reasons are stupid. What makes a rank on sc2 so goddamn important that you can't play against other people in fear that you'll lose?
"I don't like the randomness of the ladder, there's too many different kinds of players."
-That's the ladder for you.
In closing, I think laddering is a specialized skill. There are many players who can perform well on the ladder but not so good in tournaments. I personally always think that a player who is, for example, rank 30 with 8 games and 5 won (at this point in the season) should actually be like rank 60-70. I've always looked at the rank on ladder as either top 8 or not top 8.
If your actual skill level is above your current rank, prove it. If your actual skill is below your current rank, you don't deserve it and no one cares.
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Having unranked ladder would be a bad idea if you think about it. If there are two ladders, a ranked and an unranked, the ranked one will be empty for the most part in comparison. It will hurt the matchmaking for the ranked ladder. So that's not the solution I think. I don't know what the solution is though.
For me, I don't ladder as much since I don't like the randomness of the current system. I remember being platinum and getting over my ladder anxiety and playing constantly. I was actually climbing the division rank (started at 70 and got to 25 or so). I was seeing progress and got really happy! I lost a few games and BAM demoted to gold. I was really surprised! "I was going up in division rank! I thought I was doing fine! what happened?" That really upset me. It made me feel that every loss I get will certainly draw me to a demotion while a win does nothing.
I am *sure* my MMR was dropping even though I was going up the division rank. The system works fine but conveys contradicting messages sometimes like in my case. I belong in Gold, no problem with that. It was the going up on thing given the illusion I was getting "better" and then slapped down hard after losing a few games that was bad for me.
What's weird though...I only feel like that with SC2. ALL other games I play, FPS, LoL, etc I play ranked and can go on losing streaks and it doesn't matter to me at all. I've gone on a losing streak in LoL a while back that dropped my rank a lot. Didn't even notice it or care. Why the hell can't I feel like that about SC2 is beyond me :/
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On September 02 2011 01:18 phiinix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Imo people who are scared to ladder misinterpret the game design of the ladder.
"oh i don't want to ladder because I'll get cheesed, I only want to play legit"
-Cheese is a legit strategy, and if you think you're the better player because you want to play macro games, i'm sorry for you. Defending cheese is about good reaction and good scouting, while many people who lose to it blame the other player. This one is really common.
"I don't want to ladder because I don't want to lose"
-Why do you play the game? This one really really really bugs me. It's as if you'd never want to attempt anything in life unless before hand you knew you were going to be successful. It's as if anytime you make a mistake, the entire world stops to laugh at you. And both of the reasons are stupid. What makes a rank on sc2 so goddamn important that you can't play against other people in fear that you'll lose?
"I don't like the randomness of the ladder, there's too many different kinds of players."
-That's the ladder for you.
In closing, I think laddering is a specialized skill. There are many players who can perform well on the ladder but not so good in tournaments. I personally always think that a player who is, for example, rank 30 with 8 games and 5 won (at this point in the season) should actually be like rank 60-70. I've always looked at the rank on ladder as either top 8 or not top 8.
If your actual skill level is above your current rank, prove it. If your actual skill is below your current rank, you don't deserve it and no one cares.
This is exactly the correct response to people with "ladder fear". Biggest thing I hear from players, low league and high, is i don't want to be demoted or i'm playing too high of people now and know i can't win etc etc. Both are lame excuses lol
I would take your last part though and change it. Top8 or not top8 still doesn't mean anything lol You can be top8 in one division or top25 in a more competitive division (aka one with plenty of actives who play everyday). I just look at points b/c that's usually a good indicator of where you stand in ranking b/c god knows that everyone would have ladder fear if they showed our mmr/psr like every other game that has a current matchmaking system...
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On September 02 2011 00:54 1.01 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE. This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions. A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too. It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself. In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players. Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it. edit: grammar
It's already hard enough to keep up with a zerg's economy. I don't like sending 2 probes out and falling behind in every game that I don't get 6 pooled. I don't see pros do this every game either. I am not saying you are wrong, I can do this and save myself, but I don't like falling behind for no reason.
You also ignore that I said I find those games unrewarding when I hold a 6 pool. I don't have fun. I don't learn shit. I don't get to test a build order against a person, get into a macro game, test out timings/compositions, etc. That is more important to my point. Hell, my first post didn't mention balance or competence at all, I just listed a bunch of things that prevent me from having fun when I play, and everyone responded with "lol u suck" and I got annoyed. I know that amidst the multitude of sc2 players, I am nothing special (you might want to learn that considering how many times you say how great you are; unless you're a pro on a second TL account, no one cares about your play either)
Perhaps 6 pool is not the best example. Just kept talking about it because everyone kept bringing it back up. What about a rine/scv all-in that I couldn't scout because there was a marine at the ramp (assuming no low ground wall). This is out of my control. I don't enjoy this.
Also, stop with the assumptions about the way I play with my practice partners. We have no set rules. We don't let each other get away with greedy play. We don't refrain from harassing at any point. It's hardly different from playing any other game.
Also, it is a FUCKING GAME. I play the way I want to. I don't care about going pro. I don't get off telling someone on the internet "I'm a good player, you're a bad player, stfu." I want it to be fun. Have fun "growing as a player" cause obviously that is the only important thing at all ever in any way possible in any shape or form. Hell, if that's what you want to do, that's great, more power to you. But if I don't want to ladder because I'll enjoy the game more doing other things, then I will.
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On September 02 2011 00:54 1.01 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE. This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions. A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too. It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself. In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players. Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it. edit: grammar
I'm just gonna talk about what you said right here while flaming with incorrect knowledge to why that player was bad for not sending a second probe.
"This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions."
Shak is a 3 player map. only bad players, prob like yourself, would scout close pos shak lol
Sending a second probe is a bad thing b/c you lose plenty of minerals for the start of the game, which is huge. 6 pool is not that common on 4 player maps. sure i see it from time to time, and it sucks when you scout it last, but in general it's not worth losing that extra money when chances are they're not 6 pooling you...
how many games in gsl, mlg, or any other league have we seen pros send 2nd probes for fear of being 6 pooled? nill
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Am I the only one who thinks a unranked ladder would not only bring back ex starcraft2 players, but help retain new and current players?
Some guy posted stats of active players from season 1 to 2, the drop in players was horrific.
Whether it was due to ladder fear or not, unranked ladder should be tested at least to see if it helps the active player count.
Whether you agree or not, a lot of players are discouraged by the ranking of ladder as it makes it less enjoyable for them.
Make it enjoyable by making a unranked ladder = good for sc2? i dunno
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On September 02 2011 00:54 1.01 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE. This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions. A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too. It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself. In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players. Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it. edit: grammar
Referring to the sending out 2 scouts: the above is spoken truly like somebody who watches streams and games, but has never played at a pro level. And there is a reason for practice partners that goes beyond "creating false rules to make you feel like you're a good player blah blah blah". If you do not see the value in them, then it's hardly worth arguing with you.
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On September 02 2011 01:18 phiinix wrote:
Imo people who are scared to ladder misinterpret the game design of the ladder.
"oh i don't want to ladder because I'll get cheesed, I only want to play legit"
-Cheese is a legit strategy, and if you think you're the better player because you want to play macro games, i'm sorry for you. Defending cheese is about good reaction and good scouting, while many people who lose to it blame the other player. This one is really common.
"I don't want to ladder because I don't want to lose"
-Why do you play the game? This one really really really bugs me. It's as if you'd never want to attempt anything in life unless before hand you knew you were going to be successful. It's as if anytime you make a mistake, the entire world stops to laugh at you. And both of the reasons are stupid. What makes a rank on sc2 so goddamn important that you can't play against other people in fear that you'll lose?
"I don't like the randomness of the ladder, there's too many different kinds of players."
-That's the ladder for you.
In closing, I think laddering is a specialized skill. There are many players who can perform well on the ladder but not so good in tournaments. I personally always think that a player who is, for example, rank 30 with 8 games and 5 won (at this point in the season) should actually be like rank 60-70. I've always looked at the rank on ladder as either top 8 or not top 8.
If your actual skill level is above your current rank, prove it. If your actual skill is below your current rank, you don't deserve it and no one cares.
You are absolutely right, and people who are scared to play ladder should just not play. The problem here is there are a lot of people that do feel like that, I am one of them, and they have already stopped playing SC2 because of that. I just feel like losing players because of ladder fear is bad for SC2, less players means less people watching tournaments which means less money going into the pro scene ect. ect. If you're cool with SC2 being less popular just as long as these whiny players quit then fine. I personally want SC2 to grow, and I think giving players with ladder fear a way to play without would help that. Saying "oh just grow up or get out" is just going to make them leave.
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I really don't understand this whole ladder fear concept. I mean, I think you're blowing things out of proportion, making it sound like it's an epidemic. Let's call the coffee black here. You're afraid to play a video game - stop trying to get like-minded people to admit the same thing to make this socially acceptable. It's a joke, I don't care how many people suffer from this syndrome. It's like a support group for alcoholics, except they're not trying to stop drinking. They're just wallowing in their own filth and high fiving each other. Grow a pair please
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So Tortoise, you're ok with less people playing/watching SC2 as long as the scared players quit?
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On September 02 2011 02:13 brutality wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 00:54 1.01 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE. This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions. A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too. It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself. In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players. Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it. edit: grammar I'm just gonna talk about what you said right here while flaming with incorrect knowledge to why that player was bad for not sending a second probe. "This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions." Shak is a 3 player map. only bad players, prob like yourself, would scout close pos shak lol Sending a second probe is a bad thing b/c you lose plenty of minerals for the start of the game, which is huge. 6 pool is not that common on 4 player maps. sure i see it from time to time, and it sucks when you scout it last, but in general it's not worth losing that extra money when chances are they're not 6 pooling you... how many games in gsl, mlg, or any other league have we seen pros send 2nd probes for fear of being 6 pooled? nill
Ofc I am a bad player, but unlike others, I realize that. Thank you for pointing out that close position spawns is not possible on Shakuras; it was not something I had noticed with only ~220 1v1s under my belt.
The reason that pros do not send a send probe is because the metagame does not typically involve 6 pooling. This is a risk-reward scenario where the reward outweighs the risks. However, this is precisely the reason why players cannot blame the game if a 6 pool does occur. They are taking a risk, and of course there are consequences associated with said risk.
For example, if I were to 15 nexus in every PvP, would I be in any position to complain or cry about how "ladder is ruining my fun"? No. I would be taking a risk, and then paying for it. This would not be a result of skewed game design or ladder flaws. This is equivalent to being 6 pooled on a 4 player map: you risk losing if you choose to not play safely. Similarly, players are in no position to complain about 6 pools "being no fun and ruining their ladder experience" in this case.
The only reason why we don't see 15 nexus in PvP, but frequently see players skimp on the second scouting probe is simply that the current metagame allows for the reward of skipping the second scout to be much greater than the risk, as opposed to the tremendously high risk associated with 15 nexing in PvP.
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F11 -> Block Communication Button next to opponent name
POOF
your ladder fear is gone
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On September 02 2011 02:31 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 00:54 1.01 wrote:On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. I don't know if you can understand this, but it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT if you scout a 6 pool last. You claim that you are competent, but the fact that you can SCOUT A 6 POOL LAST IS CLEARLY A SIGN OF INCOMPETENCE. This is exactly what I meant when I said that 6 pools separate good from bad players. A good player knows that the possibility of a 6 pool exists on 4 player maps, and will compensate by sending out an additional scout probe if the first probe does not scout the Zerg player at close ground positions. Keep in mind that sending the second probe is only required on maps such as Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks, Tal'Darim, etc., due to a lack of close air positions. A bad player, such as yourself, would never send out the additional probe. Instead, you would tag it as poor game design. It's not an autolose unless you make the conscious decision to allow it to be so. Like I said, you can continue to play by your own little rules, and pretend that you are anywhere near good at the game. Yes, I could be #1 in my little world too. It's players who believe they are godlike while being the direct opposite that fear ladder. They cannot grasp how it is possible for them to win versus certain strategies (ie, DT rush --we all know that guy who thinks DTs are overpowered) , so they believe must be a fault of the game itself. In response, they create their own set of rules to play with their equally incompetent "practice" partners. They win these games, but are unable to win ladder games. Rather than seeing that it's these "special rules" that allow them to win games, they falsely lead themselves to believe that the ladder system is flawed, and that they really are godlike players. Ladder fear is a direct product of incompetence and the inability to recognize such, rather than flaws in the actual game's design. Players, such as myself, who accept that losses are a result of their own failures, do not fear ladder. I don't lose because of imbalances, or poor game design. I lose because I made it so. Knowing this, I can continue to grow as a player. Ladder is the medium for this growth, so there is no reason I should fear it. edit: grammar Referring to the sending out 2 scouts: the above is spoken truly like somebody who watches streams and games, but has never played at a pro level. And there is a reason for practice partners that goes beyond "creating false rules to make you feel like you're a good player blah blah blah". If you do not see the value in them, then it's hardly worth arguing with you.
If you understood the context in which I used the term "practice partner", as well as the reasoning behind the scare quotes surrounding the term "practice", you would not have posted such a blatantly ignorant section regarding the true purpose of practice partners.
Allow me to refer you my post, and I would like you to read carefully the quotation that I reference:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227113¤tpage=26#506
The 2 scouts method is a way to reduce the risk of scouting a 6 pool last to 0%. This is the problem the poster had. He wanted to take risks, but did not want to face the consequences. I simply pointed out a solution to this problem, which is to not take risks if one cannot handle the various outcomes.
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On September 02 2011 02:41 icJuice wrote:
So Tortoise, you're ok with less people playing/watching SC2 as long as the scared players quit?
ladder fear doesn't affect people who want to watch sc2. A lot of people stop playing and start watching when they realize how impossibly high the skill ceiling is.
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EPT
