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some people do not want to ladder because it is very competitive, I completely understand that and would like to see a fix; many people just do not want to compete all the time, and there's no point in discussing this. But creating a second matched but unranked environment would mess up with the system. For me the point of the ladder is that it tries to match true players skill with the ranking in bnet, and a second unranked matched environment would perhaps ruin that. Ladder forces us to put our skill in record. what people fearing ladder but not liking customs want is "unranked matching", but that would soon evolve into customs, because your success/failure would not translate into ranking.
For me as a totally causal player, it would suffice just to get rid of all rank and league and publish the MMR. I understand that the system is geared for younger players who no doubt find promotions and ranking interesting, but the discussion here and elsewhere shows that it works against itself, because it forces people into competition. All sorts of "leagues" and "ranks" and "tournaments" could be developed on the top of the transparent MMR for people who want to compete and have portraits and stuff. The point is, MMR is not as volatile as "ranking" against 100 random opponents, and there is no fear of "demotion", and it is quite abstract because it puts you against everybody else, not against division. I mean, to loss "23 points" in abstract MMR number is completely different from dropping in "rank" and "league".
But this is my personal preference, it's possible that some players would still find MMR too competitive. We could go further and allow lower lever casual players just to hide it.
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I hate this whole idea so much
If you are afraid to ladder then uninstall your game and build a house or something. You obviously dont enjoy the game
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"If you are afraid to ladder then uninstall your game and build a house or something. You obviously dont enjoy the game"
The problem is if many causal players will do that and depart. Maybe its good for the community and for the game, I don't know. I've seen players depart because of ladder competition and humiliation. Another way is to try to prevent that to happen.
Personally, I much prefer a simple, mature, and transparent system, like the ELO. It could be accompanied with all sorts of achievement portraits and gimmicks.
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On September 02 2011 13:47 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 08:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 02 2011 07:17 iky43210 wrote:On September 02 2011 06:27 Double Letters wrote:On September 02 2011 00:09 Darclite wrote:On September 01 2011 20:35 Yiska wrote:On September 01 2011 20:30 Double Letters wrote:On September 01 2011 20:04 Highways wrote:This is why I don't ladder anymore. So much time and effort required for going backwards and losing all your ladder points. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cQ87h.jpg) tip: you would have lost whether or not the little -9 appeared next to the loss, so creating an unranked ladder won't help Do you lack the cognitive skills to understand the concept people have been describing here, are you trolling or do you just want to be a jackass? +10000 I said I don't like getting 6 pooled and losing if I scout it last, and even if I scout it and hold it, which I said I don't have a problem with, I don't enjoy the game. His response was that it is easy to hold 6 pools. Nice job not reading. to everyone else arguing for a second unranked ladder, how would this ladder differ besides the lack of the tiny little icon telling you what league you are, and the lack of the tiny number telling you what rank you are? i'll answer for you and tell you that any good design will have no difference. so why not just play the regular ladder and not look at the league/rank? if there is a big enough difference to actually warrant a second ladder, why are you ignoring the harm that will come to the game from half the player base never playing the other half, due to the separate ladders? I've already answered this multiple times, but you seem to be intentionally ignoring them. There is a big difference in atmosphere in something as simple as not having that number and league next to your name. ...yeah i get it, but i mean functionality-wise, what is the difference between this new ladder and the current one? It seems like you should really be asking for a checkbox to hide ranking information if the only thing you want is to not see ranking information. I've also explain the difference and i don't feel like repeating your same argument over and over. having a checkbox to hide ranking is not the same as having a ladder thats not ranked. If you can't grasp over the differences or attempt to understand my previous points, then there's no more reason to continue discussing this with you
I'm not going to read a 29 page topic. Paraphrase it for me.
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@double letters
The difference is mental. If they have to hide it themselves, they'd be overly curious and check. Also, if they have to hide it themselves, they would still feel that they're just in _______ league. They specifically want all players to not have a league so that they don't have to feel like they need to improve themselves.
Yes, this is what customs are for.
Yes, this the reason that there is a section in the customs game menu just for 1v1
Yes, this would still result in ladder fear because ladder fear is from competition not fear of promotion/demotion.
Yes, it doesn't make much sense.
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On September 02 2011 23:16 lorkac wrote:
@double letters
The difference is mental. If they have to hide it themselves, they'd be overly curious and check. Also, if they have to hide it themselves, they would still feel that they're just in _______ league. They specifically want all players to not have a league so that they don't have to feel like they need to improve themselves.
Yes, this is what customs are for.
Yes, this the reason that there is a section in the customs game menu just for 1v1
Yes, this would still result in ladder fear because ladder fear is from competition not fear of promotion/demotion.
Yes, it doesn't make much sense.
not to mention the fact that splitting the player base in half, with one half never playing the other, doesn't exactly help the game
even if there's a 100% separate ladder, you would *still be ranked* in order for their matchmaking system to work properly. no matter what you do, if you want an auto matchmaking system that doesn't put bronzers against masters, you're going to be ranked
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Not really, I have many friends who watches and supports Starcraft2. Even though they play just custom games and team games because they have ladder fears for 1v1.
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whats all the fuzz about? just play if you want to play =) hard?
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On September 02 2011 23:34 Double Letters wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 23:16 lorkac wrote:
@double letters
The difference is mental. If they have to hide it themselves, they'd be overly curious and check. Also, if they have to hide it themselves, they would still feel that they're just in _______ league. They specifically want all players to not have a league so that they don't have to feel like they need to improve themselves.
Yes, this is what customs are for.
Yes, this the reason that there is a section in the customs game menu just for 1v1
Yes, this would still result in ladder fear because ladder fear is from competition not fear of promotion/demotion.
Yes, it doesn't make much sense. not to mention the fact that splitting the player base in half, with one half never playing the other, doesn't exactly help the game even if there's a 100% separate ladder, you would *still be ranked* in order for their matchmaking system to work properly. no matter what you do, if you want an auto matchmaking system that doesn't put bronzers against masters, you're going to be ranked
It's blaming the fire instead of blaming the match. Most players simply don't have that competitive instinct and fold under pressure. But it's easy to blame the ladder. Everyone might want to be clutch like Nada--in truth most people are like Yellow.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 03 2011 06:04 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 23:34 Double Letters wrote:On September 02 2011 23:16 lorkac wrote:
@double letters
The difference is mental. If they have to hide it themselves, they'd be overly curious and check. Also, if they have to hide it themselves, they would still feel that they're just in _______ league. They specifically want all players to not have a league so that they don't have to feel like they need to improve themselves.
Yes, this is what customs are for.
Yes, this the reason that there is a section in the customs game menu just for 1v1
Yes, this would still result in ladder fear because ladder fear is from competition not fear of promotion/demotion.
Yes, it doesn't make much sense. not to mention the fact that splitting the player base in half, with one half never playing the other, doesn't exactly help the game even if there's a 100% separate ladder, you would *still be ranked* in order for their matchmaking system to work properly. no matter what you do, if you want an auto matchmaking system that doesn't put bronzers against masters, you're going to be ranked It's blaming the fire instead of blaming the match. Most players simply don't have that competitive instinct and fold under pressure. But it's easy to blame the ladder. Everyone might want to be clutch like Nada--in truth most people are like Yellow. Emphasis mine.
I'm fairly sure that most ladder players are nothing at all like  Yellow and are in fact much more like Uniden if we're talking about people who get 2nd place.
It is a fair point, though that most players play casually; and those that play seriously are not all spamming ladder games like, say, I would, but playing at a more leisurely pace.
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On September 02 2011 15:18 Bearbear wrote:
I hate this whole idea so much
If you are afraid to ladder then uninstall your game and build a house or something. You obviously dont enjoy the game
I don't really enjoy playing the game, that is true. Whenever I play, I sigh at how shitty my mechanics are and whenever I try to polish them, I feel like wasting my time better spend on something usefull... <.<
However, I do enjoy watching the game. :-)
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The main reason I dislike ladder is because of the poor map pool Blizzard uses (especially this season)
Another reason I dislike ladder is the current bonus pool system... which totally doesn't represent players' skill at all unless they've used up every point they have, which means you constantly need to play a game or few every day, and have a ton more work to do if you haven't played for a month or two for whatever reason(s)
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On September 03 2011 08:06 Xapti wrote:
The main reason I dislike ladder is because of the poor map pool Blizzard uses (especially this season)
Another reason I dislike ladder is the current bonus pool system... which totally doesn't represent players' skill at all unless they've used up every point they have, which means you constantly need to play a game or few every day, and have a ton more work to do if you haven't played for a month or two for whatever reason(s)
Bonus pools were implemented purely for casual players.
Players who play all the time never benefit from it.
Players who don't play very often and need a lot of games to "catch up" to what they were before they stopped playing for a while, those guys are given "bonus points" to better represent their true skill by allowing them to catch up in points once they've spent 10-15 games losing while trying to get their bearings again.
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Well, i have this fear. however, when i lose(especially when i lose to some silly opponent) i get motivated to balance out my W/L ratio.
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yea... it hurts... better just remove leagues and match history, so people don't know they are losing
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On September 03 2011 08:57 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:06 Xapti wrote:
The main reason I dislike ladder is because of the poor map pool Blizzard uses (especially this season)
Another reason I dislike ladder is the current bonus pool system... which totally doesn't represent players' skill at all unless they've used up every point they have, which means you constantly need to play a game or few every day, and have a ton more work to do if you haven't played for a month or two for whatever reason(s) Bonus pools were implemented purely for casual players. Players who play all the time never benefit from it. Players who don't play very often and need a lot of games to "catch up" to what they were before they stopped playing for a while, those guys are given "bonus points" to better represent their true skill by allowing them to catch up in points once they've spent 10-15 games losing while trying to get their bearings again.
Bonus pool doesn't benefit anyone. It is nothing but a disingenuous implementation of point decay.
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On September 03 2011 09:22 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 08:57 lorkac wrote:On September 03 2011 08:06 Xapti wrote:
The main reason I dislike ladder is because of the poor map pool Blizzard uses (especially this season)
Another reason I dislike ladder is the current bonus pool system... which totally doesn't represent players' skill at all unless they've used up every point they have, which means you constantly need to play a game or few every day, and have a ton more work to do if you haven't played for a month or two for whatever reason(s) Bonus pools were implemented purely for casual players. Players who play all the time never benefit from it. Players who don't play very often and need a lot of games to "catch up" to what they were before they stopped playing for a while, those guys are given "bonus points" to better represent their true skill by allowing them to catch up in points once they've spent 10-15 games losing while trying to get their bearings again. Bonus pool doesn't benefit anyone. It is nothing but a disingenuous implementation of point decay.
It's usefulness in practice is irrelevant to the intent in it's application.
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Ladder fear doesn't exist. Fear of losing does.
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fear of ladder fear hurting starcraft is killing esport!
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The ladder fear is just a fear of that it will go bad and you will lose and the consequences of doing so. But if you don't ladder you will never improve you standing in ladder either the only way to get rid of the the "ladder fear" is by playing ladder 
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EPT
