On December 05 2011 07:36 rotinegg wrote: Have you seen this?
It's a 16 minute video showing what ACTUALLY happened that forced the police into a situation where they had to use pepper spray. I can now say the police were 100% justified in what they did without an inkling of doubt.
edit:: The gist of what happened (this is the tl;dw version, but please watch the entire thing if you have any qualms with my summary) students are notified in the previous day to clear the quad of tents -> next day police arrive and give out multiple verbal warnings to those still occupying tents that they will be arrested and incarcerated at the county jail -> police arrest only those who still refused to clear their tents from the quad, not the bystanders -> the students surround the police so they physically cannot move out of the circle, and demand that they release the arrested students -> start chanting shit like "let them free and you can leave" and "fuck the police!" -> verbal warnings issued, students take it as a joke -> last resort pepper spray -> bitchfit ensues
Just another reminder how all media is subject to bias... It's really nice that someone took the time out to represent the opposite perspective with their own video. Previous videos were quite uninformative, and they mostly just made it seem as though the police just said "Move" and then sprayed.
Now they say move quite a few times. It wouldn't be much of a protest if it disperses after a warning or two would it? They still weren't being threatened and the student "wall" was still plenty thin. They had officers on both sides of the wall, so they of course would have to resort to pepper spraying. The students to seem like a bunch of sheep in this video, but that's irrelevant in regards to the justification of the response.
On December 05 2011 09:21 Fontong wrote: Huh, when did I say it wasn't excessive? And I said that all media is subject to bias, which kind of assumes that the video I quoted is also biased? I only said that previous videos were taken out of context. Nothing more.
I was responding pretty much to everyone above me, not you in particular.
On December 05 2011 09:16 Superiorwolf wrote: The media of course portrayed the event in certain sensationalist ways and didn't paint the whole picture, but this video itself is biased. Not only that, but it doesn't justify the use of pepper spray at all.
We can see more of where the police are coming from and understand their perspective more (although it was possible to find that out by doing research aside from the media) but the use of pepper spray and the manner in which it was used was clearly excessive.
Upon what standard are you basing your assessment of "excessive force" ? Is it based on how law enforcement officers are trained or is it pulled straight out of your ass, and completely full of shit ?
Just wanted to say thanks to OP for keeping things updated. It happens so rarely
edit:: The gist of what happened (this is the tl;dw version, but please watch the entire thing if you have any qualms with my summary) students are notified in the previous day to clear the quad of tents -> next day police arrive and give out multiple verbal warnings to those still occupying tents that they will be arrested and incarcerated at the county jail -> police arrest only those who still refused to clear their tents from the quad, not the bystanders -> the students surround the police so they physically cannot move out of the circle, and demand that they release the arrested students -> start chanting shit like "let them free and you can leave" and "fuck the police!" -> verbal warnings issued, students take it as a joke -> last resort pepper spray -> bitchfit ensues
This thread has seriously focused on completely the wrong point
Once the police were called to evict the protesters there was always going to be an escalation. Yes, Pepper Spray was extreme. Keep in mind that some other form of force would have been necessary to remove the students. We have argued back and forth about the use of pepper spray but virtually nothing has been said about why the protesters had to leave at all.
Activism is a part of student life. There are protests every single day. This one was clearly more permanent than others and so had greater risks. However the reason the chancellor gave for moving the students was that it was hazardhous to their health to stay. That's right, getting pepper sprayed is healthier than living in a tent.
The students` protest was illegal and the chancellor had a choice to remove them. Why would you risk the safety of those protesting by calling in the police. First off, ask them to leave. As has been said, some people were already packing up. Yes you would have your hard core few but by calling in the police you are actively escalating the situation.
There is a much higher risk of harm for what benefit? People can now walk freely along a path Chancelor made a huge mistake and the police are paying for it.
On December 05 2011 09:16 Superiorwolf wrote: The media of course portrayed the event in certain sensationalist ways and didn't paint the whole picture, but this video itself is biased. Not only that, but it doesn't justify the use of pepper spray at all.
We can see more of where the police are coming from and understand their perspective more (although it was possible to find that out by doing research aside from the media) but the use of pepper spray and the manner in which it was used was clearly excessive.
Yep.
Additionally as some have sort of articulated. "peaceful protesters move, or protesters get pepper sprayed." Is of course a false dichotomy. The police had many obvious solutions to their situation other than to just use excessive force force.
Police officers have hard job, it's difficult to not crack and break your departments policy in front of protesters that are antagonizing you. Some of the officers from this event have demonstrated they aren't up to the task, and might want to consider working somewhere else.
On December 05 2011 07:36 rotinegg wrote: Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y It's a 16 minute video showing what ACTUALLY happened that forced the police into a situation where they had to use pepper spray. I can now say the police were 100% justified in what they did without an inkling of doubt.
edit:: The gist of what happened (this is the tl;dw version, but please watch the entire thing if you have any qualms with my summary) students are notified in the previous day to clear the quad of tents -> next day police arrive and give out multiple verbal warnings to those still occupying tents that they will be arrested and incarcerated at the county jail -> police arrest only those who still refused to clear their tents from the quad, not the bystanders -> the students surround the police so they physically cannot move out of the circle, and demand that they release the arrested students -> start chanting shit like "let them free and you can leave" and "fuck the police!" -> verbal warnings issued, students take it as a joke -> last resort pepper spray -> bitchfit ensues
Just another reminder how all media is subject to bias... It's really nice that someone took the time out to represent the opposite perspective with their own video. Previous videos were quite uninformative, and they mostly just made it seem as though the police just said "Move" and then sprayed.
The problem with the spray is that if you spray someone with pepper spray they can't move that kind of pepper spray makes you numb then sets your skin on fire after suffering 30 mins to 2 hours of temporary blindness, so the order to move doesn't make sense as when you spray then the last thing they can do is move, in California state prisons you can't spray a sitting down prisoner like that as it would be considered unnecessary force. So to say that the police were in the right in doing so is also wrong, both parties have problems to how they handled it but you have to remember the protesters never threw a rock at the police.
Throw a rock at a cop and you'll get more than pepper spray in response. Believe me. Law enforcement deals with the reality that a rock that hits them right, rendering them unconscious, makes it impossible for them to retain their weapon. Therefore, what you consider merely 'rock throwing' is much more. Wasn't it rocks being thrown at Border Patrol that not too long ago that saw the BP open fire in return ?
Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
On December 05 2011 09:53 t3tsubo wrote: Since the chancellor refuses to resign, how would things have to pan out for someone with authority over the chancellor to force her resignation?
i'm a UC Davis student, and I have no fucking clue why everyone wants the chancellor to resign. The whole protest is completely aimless, unguided, and disjointed. I actually am thanking the casual pepper spray police officer for somewhat uniting and strengthening the movement, but even now there are still a couple hundred students and staff living in tents all over campus with no clue what their next move is.
it's supposed to be about the 80% tuiton hike, and honestly the chancellor has very little control over that. It's not her fault the state is drowning in debt and cutting education funding on a yearly basis.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
Besides the fact that they formed a circle around them....
So they would have need to pick people up and move them to move.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
Then how to you explain the protestors' offer to allow the cops to leave if they release the arrestees ? It seems if the cops could have left, that would be a real silly thing to say. Well, it [i]was[/] a pretty stupid thing to say, but at least it's contextually accurate, since the cops were surrounded.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
Besides the fact that they formed a circle around them....
So they would have need to pick people up and move them to move.
They were sitting on the ground, unless we have police officers so physically uncoordinated they cant step over them I dont see that as an excuse. You want a red carpet laid out for them?
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
Besides the fact that they formed a circle around them....
So they would have need to pick people up and move them to move.
They were sitting on the ground, unless we have police officers so physically uncoordinated they cant step over them I dont see that as an excuse. You want a red carpet laid out for them?
the police car had to move i think. not 100% sure.
On December 05 2011 09:16 Superiorwolf wrote: The media of course portrayed the event in certain sensationalist ways and didn't paint the whole picture, but this video itself is biased. Not only that, but it doesn't justify the use of pepper spray at all.
We can see more of where the police are coming from and understand their perspective more (although it was possible to find that out by doing research aside from the media) but the use of pepper spray and the manner in which it was used was clearly excessive.
Upon what standard are you basing your assessment of "excessive force" ? Is it based on how law enforcement officers are trained or is it pulled straight out of your ass, and completely full of shit ?
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
What the police should have done is at least attempted to arrest the protesters one at a time by removing them from the chain. If there was any resistance, THEN pepper spray may be justified. But before even attempting that, using pepper spray on people who are simply sitting down is completely unwarranted. ESPECIALLY when the pepper spray is military grade and supposed to be sprayed from a minimum of 15 feet. It was sprayed from near point blank range and multiple times at that, which in my opinion constitutes unnecessary use of force.
You don't taser someone for jaywalking, nor do you shoot them either. Then why do you pepper spray these protesters? It's obvious they should have been arrested. The manner in which they were arrested was not appropriate for the situation at all though.
On December 05 2011 09:53 Paperplane wrote: Pepper spraying the people sitting down because you feel threatened makes no sense. Those guys are the least of your worries. Using it on the people standing behind the cops would've made more sense to me. I can understand you're very nervous as a cop if there's a crowd standing behind you. This course of action just made them look like a bunch of powertripping idiots.
Cops have a job to do. They have arrested people and are now responsible for their safety, as well as their own. A bunch of assholes blocks them from being able to leave the scene. Police have experience and training in situations getting out of control. What would you suggest they have done ? Stand there all night until the protestors got bored ? No. This entire argument is so stupid it's remarkable.
The people sitting on the ground weren't exactly blocking em from leaving.
Besides the fact that they formed a circle around them....
So they would have need to pick people up and move them to move.
They were sitting on the ground, unless we have police officers so physically uncoordinated they cant step over them I dont see that as an excuse. You want a red carpet laid out for them?
Well they were bringing people with them who were arrested... If i was a cop i wouldn't give the situation a chance for one of the arrested persons to decide to make a bigger deal and decide he was gonna fall onto his fellow protesters and give the protesters a chance to get within arms reach of the arrested personal. Murphy's Law is the name of the game. I mean yea i can agree that they could have just tried pushing out at a different point in the circle I guess.
On December 03 2011 15:38 Azerbaijan wrote: [quote]
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense.
But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable?
I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others?
They said they can't leave with the people they arrested, they could have left any time they wanted.
No offense but that is complete bull. You're saying that police should just give into the demands of protesters and leave because they are obviously right? Who made the protesters god? I guess they should just march up to the police station and tell them they can't leave unless they leave 100,000 dollars for a guy who needs a college fee because he's poor. That's moral right?
This kind of protest solves nothing. You waste taxpayers dollars on clean up and police watch while you achieve nothing because the way you protest causes so much controversy. If these guys really want to make a difference, go work in a soup kitchen, donate to charity, volunteer to non-profit organizations that help the community.
Also, on the topic of higher college expenses, if you keep your GPA up, then some states give you a scholarship that pays for room/board, books, and pretty much everything besides the tuition. If you then go look up the amount of scholarships out there and apply, then you can potentially pay off your entire college tuition. And don't even get me started on government financial aid. If you do your research and work hard in high school, on academics and extraciriculars, then you can go to college for free. My friend went to emory, whos tuition is 50k+, on a full ride due to scholarships and government aid.
I will admit thought not everyone can do this. This is where going to the right school and getting the right major is important.
Ya, let's just ignore all the problems wrong with the country, continue to take it up the ass, and just work in soup kitchens to make a real difference. The logic is strong in this one.
yeah and what is your solution, protest? Lobby? You have to realize by now they don't care and won't change. And if we do go violent, that would just make us rebels that are selfish. What have you taken up the ass that ha physically or mentally harmed you? Stop being such a pansy,I hate when people claim our country has so many problems and they suffer when they live comfortably and have time to play starcraft when people die like every seven seconds of hunger in the world. Yeah we do have problems, so what? Is it gonna cause us to die? Or is it gonna potentially cause us to not have enough money for internet? People have been saying this since our country was started. They claimed their children are in danger. Is our country still intact? Does their children eat and manage to get money every day? We blow so many things out of proportion, its ridiculous. When we have a serious problem, like North Korea or something is gonna nuke us, call me.
In summary
Are you serious?
Hey guys everything in Europe and America is fine because we have a higher average quality of life than certain people in Africa and North Korea. We should thank our governments for the status quo rather than work to improve it! Political activism is just self-indulgence!
Please make a real argument instead of taking words out of my mouth. First off, I expressed my opinion in my first post that I disagree with the methods of protest that the protesters in the video. Then i expressed my opinion, if people like us (maybe half of the 53% of americans who can pay federal taxes because some have to scrape by) help and educate the poor, then perhaps we would be a lot better off. I also expressed my opinion that we have it good compared to the rest of the world and are in no real danger.
Why do i say help and educate the poor? Many who have suffered have made, not to be mean or anything, bad choices in life. Some make bad choice due to pure laziness and selfsatisfaction, but many make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge. They do not study hard in school to maintain a good GPA and do not actively look for scholarships to pay for college. And for those who try but cannot, they choose to go to an expensive college anyways and take out loans without evaluating the ramifications of such actions. Then some of them decide to do an easy major or a major that they really like that does not have good job outlooks. There is nothing wrong with that, but they don't research their majors extensively and realize that the jobs they can get are really competitive and/or low paying. Psychology degrees are a classical example of this. I am a psych major, and read an article on how Psychology majors are the unhappiest majors in America. Further research found that the only job most considered was becoming a counselor or clinical psychologist, which is VERY competitive and requires grad school. They don't research other jobs they can get and when they realize after not getting into grad school that their remaining choice are not what they wanted. Then they find out they have massive debts and are screwed. If you want to get into college for less money, study hard and/or look for scholarships and go to a school that you can afford. Even a lower end college can get you a high paycheck if you try hard and get the right degree. And don't forget to research your degree! This basically sums up the unhappy college graduates situation.
There are more examples and it looks like i'm bashing on people in college for being idiots, but its not their fault. They are young, and more importantly, UNEXPERIENCED. If those who had experienced gave them good advice, they would perhaps change their degree, sacrifice a bit of happiness for a healthier future, and gone for delayed gratification. Many in poverty are in similar situations. They are stuck in that cycle because no one tells them they can escape, no one educates them because they are stuck in shit schools, and no one tells them any better. My argument? Instead of protesting inciting police pepper spray attacks and wasting taxpayers dollars, peacefully protest, help those who need help, and the government will notice.
This is just my opinion of course and how I think we should approach the situation, what is yours?
EPT
Chancelor made a huge mistake and the police are paying for it. ![[image loading]](http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/10/6a00d83451c45669e2014e8c12624c970d-550wi.png)
