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@ s0Lstice + Vivax
Golden's play does remind me a lot of the way he played in NMM XIV and he flipped town. I don't think we can put too much faith in meta arguments. Golden's meta is a great meta if he rolled scum this game. I just think we need to take a look at how ShiaoPi plays this game out. I'd advocate disassociating his play with Golden's because I don't think anyone has a good read on him.
I've got analysis of several players that I'm going to post right before the deadline. I don't want to post it earlier because it may give scum more information and help them choose their shot. I'll be back soon.
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United States720 Posts
Solstice, I'll address all your concerns come day time.
Seriously though, if I was mafia, why would I not take the easy route and side with the Ange77 bandwagon initally?
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Shit, running out of time 
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@ Xatalos
Unfortunately I have class during the two hours right before the deadline. The class often ends a little bit early so I was able to make it on just in time to make a quick post and see the lynch results.
The case against heist is decent, but I'm not convinced. He was very reluctant to change his vote to suki. If scum go all in on a bussing attempt it's meant to take pressure off of themselves. If scum were to bus each other, I'd think they would try to attract more attention to the fact that they were voting scum in order to take pressure off of themselves, much like someone else I can think of (Unforgiven). I still need to reread s0Lstice's case on heist, so I'll go through the case and heist's filter again with an open mind.
Let's look at Unforgiven's play. There were three main players pushing for suki's lynch: Sciberbia, Ange777, and Unforgiven. Of the three, which of them flaunted the fact that they voted for scum? Showing off that he voted for scum is not a play that helps town, it's a play to keep himself alive. Keeping oneself alive is scum motivation, that or he's town with a massive ego. I won't write off either possibility. Let's not forget that his case against suki was really flimsy. It's possible that he posted that case on actual scum in order to take pressure off himself, but also with the expectation that the case would be dropped.
Time is running out so I need to get this out there in case I die. As we got closer to the lynch deadline, Vivax's points and posting got more and more nonsensical. It doesn't take a great leap of judgement to think that Vivax panicked as his scumbuddy got closer and closer to the chopping block. In my last game I remember how difficult it was not to panic whenever pressure was on me or my partner in scum. That may have happened with him.
If I'm still alive come day post I still have a lot of work to do. I need to read through the filters more and try to map out accusations, counter-accusations, and defenses as they happened. I will post again when I feel I have a better handle on this game.
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I've read through everyone's filters and updated my reads on everyone. I think that there is some chance I die tonight, so I've got some stuff I wanna say now.
My reads
+ Show Spoiler +
Here are my top 2 reads:
I find heist scummy
I find golden/shiaopi suspicious
I still think Cattivik is probably townie
If I'm alive tomorrow, I'll be more than happy to expand on these.
If I'm dead tomorrow, I request that you put at least some weight on my reads, but don't live and die by them.
Thoughts on blues
+ Show Spoiler +
@Town
If, at any point in the game, you are saved by a medic (you will be notified via PM), it makes most sense to just claim this instantly. The mafia already know this (because their target isn't dead), so you might as well just give the town the same information. This confirms you as townie because it'd be a terrible idea to fakeclaim this as mafia.
@Cop
If we have a cop, you know for a fact that we have a medic. If you get a guilty check, you should try to get the mafia lynched without claiming. But if that doesn't work, just claim. You might want to claim before then if you think you are likely to be hit by mafia, just so you get medic protection. I think it also makes a lot of sense to claim once you have 2 safe checks that are still alive, but it's a judgement call. You might also consider coming out if we are about to mislynch a known townie.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Sorry took me longer than I thought to catch up and all, let's share some of my reads:
To me there are several people kind of suspicious:
First of I am really wary of Vivax:
His play seemed really solid and townielike until ange posted her case on suki. He states that he believes 100% in his townread on suki and goes to great length to try to defend him and secure the lynch on ange, when his reasons to vote her were only lurking. It does seem scummy as we all know that suki flipped scum. On the other hand his tunneling could also be a sign of bad townie, I am kind of torn about him, what really strikes me out is that he does not seem to want to face the critique which is for sure going to come his way at Day 2, but on the other hand going by the first half of day 1 and his playstyle it could just as well be a bad townie.
eishi_ki is slightly suspicious, he kind of lurked (although with RL complications, so not making a fuss out of it) but what struck me was the soft-defense suki gave him:
+ Show Spoiler +In any case, I don't think Eishi is scum, but he hasn't contributed that much to the thread as of yet. and I wasn't piling suspicion on Eishi_ki. Eishi was under fire by Cattivik, so I was posting my read on him, and my read was that, based on his posts thus far, Eishi had not contributed anything, but I did not feel he was scum.
This makes it slightly suspicious, especially as these posts came before he came under pressure prior to lynch.
Superouman: I guess everybody can agree that he is a huge mystery right now, wishy-washy non-committal posts, refusal to play according to win-con and a random vote on sciberbia. Until he starts posting again not much to make of, but seriously this guy is sooo confusing.
Xatalos would be my last on this list of kind of suspicion. He seemed to take quite a good moderating role on in day 1 directing discussion etc. But the content within his posts is not too much if you look at them closely. Furthermore in the phase just before lynch he presses really hard for a lynch on unforgiven, given the fact that suki flipped scum it could have been a deflecting manoveur, this would kind of link him up with heist , but heist reads as pretty townie to me.
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Vivax
My top scum read right now is Vivax. There are several reasons which I am going to explain in detail. This will be a long post, please read it carefully and to the end!
1. His first posts and case against Eishi
From the start Vivax was an active poster and seemed like an aggressive player not being afraid to share his read on other people. Which normally makes a player a town read. So far so good. But he generated a bit of suspicion by his claim that sciberbia having posted as the first player automatically makes him town.
On May 31 2012 08:39 Vivax wrote:
Sciberbia is the most active poster so far, also he's not promoting a NL, he's questioning day1 lynch.
Whatever, I'm pretty sure he's clean, no mafia would go for the first post in a newbie game.
When being critized for this statement by heist he claims following:
On May 31 2012 21:57 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 09:34 heist wrote:
That defense is borderline scummy. There is nothing that mafia won't do. Do not assume he's clean because he's the first post in a newbie game. Obviously this is only your first impression, but your reasoning is a little off here.
Yes, i never supported a NL, but aknocwledged sciberbias point I suggest that you keep the discussion to yourself, you talk a lot about me, not about the accusations towards you.
This is not a decent way to answer any concerns voiced by other players. Considering other players to be town just by activity is a mistake. But when people try to explain this to him, he just shuts down their accusation without answering them. And that is a pattern which I encountered quite often when reading Vivax' filter or talking to Vivax.
Vivax then starts a case against Eishi. A poor case based on his statement of due to living in a different timezone he probably won't have the time to be online before deadlines.
On May 31 2012 20:20 Vivax wrote:Eishi_Ki: Pretty poor arguments to accuse me, but blends in well with the opinions of the former posts.You also say you have a reason to keep lurking. A win/win situation for mafia. You also suspect those who are most active here.Then there's this: Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 14:04 Eishi_Ki wrote:
Yeah just a note on my activity times, I live in Korea so 7am KST actually 7am (whodathunk) and I gotta work, so activity time before the deadline will be minimal I'm afraid (or maybe it's a good thing, hmm) Dude, what. How is it a good thing? You are basically saying that you won't contribute much to the scumhunt while the scumjuice flows out of your every pore.I don't even want to go on with other players cause I think you should start telling us more about your thought processes: ##VOTE :Eishi_Ki
Eishi's argument for suspecting Vivax was weak therefore I can understand that Vivax might have concerns with Eishi's play. But again Vivax judges purely based on activity! (See underlined parts) Eishi's explanation for his probable absence was more than decent and having been absent myself I am more than willing to give him the benefit of doubt. But this is not how Vivax sees it. In his opinion lurking=mafia, active=townie. Interesting deduction.
On May 31 2012 21:57 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:13 Eishi_Ki wrote:
What would you like to know about my thought processes? I can't tell you how my brains works, only that I analyse details at face value and then have a lot of time to think about them further. I noted initially that you were trying to sell that you were a Townie without saying so outright Oh, you can tell me what you thought. This argument of yours makes you appear even more scummy. Why? It's selective! Did you read Heists' post?It's even more recent than mine, he uses the collective form more times than me, yet you say i'm suspicious. Either you were sloppy, or you are scum trying to let me look suspicious, in latter case: Does that mean I was on the right track?Or that Heist is scum aswell?
Being confronted with Eishi's answer what does Vivax do? He deflects from himself but starts to throw some mud on Heist.
I like Eishi's defense. He states his opinion without being swayed by others and has sound arguments about Vivax' attack being very unclear and inconcise:
On June 01 2012 14:38 Eishi_Ki wrote:After dropping the subject of Vivax because there wasn't a lot to talk about, I now feel I have more substantial points. First off + Show Spoiler +Eishi_Ki: Pretty poor arguments to accuse me, but blends in well with the opinions of the former posts.You also say you have a reason to keep lurking. A win/win situation for mafia. You also suspect those who are most active here.
Then there's this:
On May 31 2012 14:04 Eishi_Ki wrote:
Yeah just a note on my activity times, I live in Korea so 7am KST actually 7am (whodathunk) and I gotta work, so activity time before the deadline will be minimal I'm afraid (or maybe it's a good thing, hmm)
Dude, what. How is it a good thing? You are basically saying that you won't contribute much to the scumhunt while the scumjuice flows out of your every pore.
I don't even want to go on with other players cause I think you should start telling us more about your thought processes:
##VOTE :Eishi_Ki Straight up calls me out for no concise reason + Show Spoiler +Yes, i never supported a NL, but aknocwledged sciberbias point
I suggest that you keep the discussion to yourself, you talk a lot about me, not about the accusations towards you.
If you admit you are scum now, you may choose the way you get lynched, Eishi_Ki, like being drowned in single malt whisky to have a last taste of your country.
I'll keep the vote locked in. Continues on the warpath with no sway in opinion whatsoever. Next post, after my rebuttal, he continues to press the issue. + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 02:07 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:36 s0Lstice wrote:
You decided to vote for him based on the fact that his schedule means he can't be around during lynch time, and him wondering if it's a good thing that he isn't around during that time. You mean his joke?Yes, I didn't get the joke. My main points (which I wonder you don't know, cause they were at the beginning of my argumentation against him) are that he just started posting after two accusations were out, with the claim of me talking of 'us' townies with the purpose of making myself sound as if I were one, while heist, a few posts above, does exactly the same thing I did. So Eishi_Ki bandwagoned with a very weak claim, a very small post and no pressure to post in the future cause of his schedule. Also, notice how once confronted with his weak claim he suddenly accuses three other people but not me anymore. He must have noticed that his claim is really weak and is now dodging the accusations. He also denied a statement concerning the weak claim instead asking what the accusation is. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298¤tpage=8#143I think there is not enough information on unforgiven, except for a nonexistent post analysis. He gave general tips so far, then he agreed with statements from other players without questioning them and without posting something concrete. I'll stick to my opinion regarding sciberbia and Eishi_Ki. In case I won't have a majority on Eishi_Ki, I'll try to help achieve the majority on the case i believe is most correct in order to get a Day 1 lynch 100%. And up to this point I STILL don't know what I was accused of. I never asserted that I was accusing you, only that I was suspicious. What do you want, a full accusation after you post a couple of times? I felt the need to contribute, and I did. Yes my points were weak but I frankly don't know anything about D1 vs D2 lynch so I opted out of saying anything in that regard. Plus, it was a dead horse. Finally, since that point, I have said nothing regarding Vivax to sway or dissuade him (sleeping and working). But from going from a vehement hyper aggressive vote for myself to this.... + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 05:51 Vivax wrote:
Ange777:
Permanent lurker. He promised he would contribute something soon. If it's not enough, I will vote for him first and unvote Eishi_Ki. ...does seem highly suspicious. I haven't attempted to change your mind on your vote, so why the weak knees and change of heart to calling out a lurker? Was it everyone else basically telling you your argument was moot and that my responses were adequate? In either case, I had you fingered from the start and my suspicions were not waived despite moving onto other subjects. Here be mafia.
Vivax' answer:
On June 01 2012 19:32 Vivax wrote:
I'll stop giving accurate posts where i quote myself and others in chronological order, since some people don't seem to be able to read that information properly, else they wouldn't still be thinking I'm not town.
So I'll keep the answers restricted to your post especially concerning the comments on the spoilers:
Spoiler1: See spoiler3
Spoiler2: That was an answer to your accusation that I want a D1L while supporting sciberbias' idea of a NL, which you felt was contradictory.
Spoiler3: What rebuttal of yours?post that too maybe. Anyway, the accusation is written in the spoiler:
Jumping on the bandwagon with heist and Golden_ne with a really weak claim. The time schedule might be a reason for you to be less active, still it's something every good townie should be suspicious at first glance.
Also, notice how you post -again- after the two of them posted already a claim against me. You seem to really like to show up together with them and ignoring other town matters to push the case against me.
Spoiler4: This spoiler really makes me wonder if you're actually reading the thread. You should really do that.
I'll read that for you, my post in the spoiler was an answer to suki, who wanted me to put your case aside and hear opinions about other players. That's what I've done, scummy?Hell no, one of the few times I can actually push the scumhunt cause I don't have to defend myself from feeble accusations.
Anyway, even if my case on you might be wrong, it has pulled out so much information that you won't be able to not get pressured in case I die, along with some other folk.
Reading this actually gives me a very angry and emotional vibe. Once again Vivax accuses Eishi based on his time matters. Once for the activity and once for the timing of his post. Why is he so fixated on the lurking and timing thing? It is one of the earlier signs in the scumhunt but should not be your only criteria! As Eishi has continually contributed on the Vivax' case I assume that he was not just blindly "bandwagoning" on a case on Vivax. Vivax finally ends his post with a warning not to lynch him. Why would he feel the need to claim that? Scared of being suspected by town?
2. Vivax' interaction with me
It starts with Vivax' vote on me. His reasoning is the following:
On June 01 2012 19:32 Vivax wrote:
If there's a majority the town can get without fear of hitting blue, it's Ange777.
It's a day 1 with lots of information from almost everybody with exception of him, and I can say for sure that this day 1 has been a fingerpointing match like it shouldn't have been for a good town. Let's at least try to finish it with something we have an agreement on: Like most of us stated, the lurkers should get lynched first unless we already have strong scumreads.
And if this guy is mafia, he doesn't have to contribute anything as of now to remain unharmed.
So I have absolutely no chance of flipping blue? How can Vivax possibly know that? I try to confront him on this odd statement:
On June 02 2012 02:17 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 02:09 Ange777 wrote:
Also, why is there no chance at all of hitting blue with me? I am NOT claiming blue right now ... I just don't know how you can ever be sure of that.
Lol what kind of argument is that: ' I might be blue'. Sounds exactly like the type of argument someone without arguments would use, you can apply it on anyone who didn't let any 100 % obvious scumreads slip while lurking all the time. You had the chance to set your priorities between this mafia game and the others. But until the last hours, there were no votes against you, so you didn't feel the need to be more active in this one. Now that the guns are pointed at you, you come out swinging to defend yourself. In my opinion one has no choice but to lynch you.
I clearly state that I am NOT claiming blue. I just want to know how he can say this because there IS no way to know for sure. But what does Vivax do? Oh yes, he again ignores the question but instead twists my words into "I might be blue".
After reading my defense this is what Vivax posts:
On June 02 2012 04:53 Vivax wrote:
I just went through sukis' filter, and I would STRONGLY consider him to be town.
I see his defense as valid and his efforts as sincere, that said, the people pushing the case against him are either misleaded townies or mafia.
And saying he's bandwagoning on Ange777's case is nonsense, he was among the first if not the first.
I think we should keep pushing the case against Ange777, right now she's trying to undig cases on all possible people. I understand that there might be pressure cause of the limited time, but backing off from this target now puts the town at great danger of a No-Lynch.
And frankly, who the hell would want to lynch the guy who contributed more so far (suki) as opposed to someone who comes last minute when the votes against her are out already.
Stop getting soft and let's stick to the lurker lynching policy noone opposed to at the start.
It's a real bad time for controversy.
He claims Suki's filter looks good. Therefore anyone against Suki is bad townie or mafia. Then he states that I deserve to be lynched for my lurking. This is not a very good defense of Suki or a good reason for me to be killed off. I have stated several times that lynching lurkers is better than a NL but I came back with the wish to contribute. Therefore I asked Vivax to explain his stance:
On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
Vivax, are you seriously coming in and trying to defend Suki without any real effort? If you have problems with my case against him, please state them and tell me, why do you believe me to be mislead.
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
His answer and my response:
On June 02 2012 05:46 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:26 Vivax wrote:On June 02 2012 05:02 Ange777 wrote:
And Suki IS bandwagoning. He was the 5th player to vote for me, I can't see how this counts as "the first".
You are right, I've mistaken miltons' post for sukis. Still doesn't change my opinion after reading his filter. Going for the lynch as opposed to a NL will always look like a bandwagon. In fact, when there aren't any decisive reads, there has to be a bandwagon. But better that than more confusion. I've also said heist shouldn't try to disrupt the voting process against you, should it be one vote away from a majority, cause then we will end up without information. That doesn't mean I will accuse him for bandwagoning just cause he's the last to vote. There are no proper scumreads in his posts, one of the most early scumreads is inactivity, by which you shined. I've already compared the times of your posts in the other games with those in this one, and you didn't feel pressured to post in this one when you did in the other. You've either set your priorities in a way that it will make you look suspicious, or you are scum. Then this case on suki, it's just perfect for you, the contribution you are giving us concerns mostly him, and you also vote for him. Since there is already a fair amount of people suspecting him, it's just natural you're gonna try to spin momentum away from your towards his case. Also, you post a lot of small posts effectively diluting the thread. Look, I'm suspicious to a bunch of people already, I am pushing the accusation against you. Then why do you just pick sukis' case cause it's the case where you could obtain a majority and not get lynched? Cause it's gonna be too hard for you to push a case on me, heist and Golden tried, now they're silent when it won't work. Who defended you?Heist. Guess what, his first line regarding you was: 'Let us hear something from you. No pressure.' He's going pretty soft on you despite being a lurker. As I have stated several times, I understand the need to lynch. Better lynch a lurker than a NL. Everyone agrees. I tried to explain why I posted in the other game instead of this one. Yesterday was the voting deadline for TL Mafia LV. I felt it was more important to catch up with that thread and vote there because I would have time today to contribute in our game. While I believe that inactivity is indeed an early scumread, lurking that excessivly as I have done is just far too noticeable that I don't believe scum would actually try to follow this strategy. The case against Suki is not based on previous suspicions from other players but on my own reasoning. There have been points that I made in my case which where not mentioned yet in the thread. If I had known that picking someone who I believe is actually scummy makes me scum ... guess I should have "picked" you as you proposed ... Why do you want me to build a case against you? I haven't yet commented on your play. Is there anything scummy I skipped that would have made a case against you better than a case against Suki? And yes, Heist is "going soft" on me .... BECAUSE I was "only" lurking. And besides lurking there was nothing else that made me scummy. I don't like your defense of Suki at all. Basically you try two things: 1) You try to discredit me by saying that I chose an easy case. I can only say, I am pretty convinced by my case of Suki and would have posted a similar case on anybody whom I believed to be scummy. 2) You try to say I am scummy because I lurked. Now that I unlurk don't you think that should somehow revert your judgement? Or are you saying that I am now scummy BECAUSE I unlurked? This is not a defense at all. You only discredit ME, but you don't explain Suki's behaviour. I have stated that he had more than enough time to start a good case on Unforgiven (which I would have seconded having seen Unforgiven's latest posts) and you only repeat that you think his filter is good? Oh yes ... and finally the biggest loop in your logic. I don't need a majority for Suki if the only thing I was concerned about was staying alive. Getting a NL would suffice if I was mafia. Please come up with a better defense ... otherwise I will be presenting you with a FoS as well.
On June 02 2012 06:16 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:55 Vivax wrote:
Also know that I will be voting for anyone except myself, should that help in achieving a majority. No matter what my opinion on the suspect is, the alignment flipping will unveil a crapload of information.
That said, if suki is gonna flip town, I really hope you will be able to recognize Ange777's motives behind her intention to push a case on him. My intention? Lynch scummy players. Show nested quote +If suki flips mafia, then I was clearly wrong and might end up in trouble for defending him. That would also prove Ange777 innocent and everyone supporting the vote first (not the ones joining in when it was obvious). I thought you are pretty sure of him being town ... Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:53 Vivax wrote:
I just went through sukis' filter, and I would STRONGLY consider him to be town. Show nested quote +However, do you notice how there's actually noone defending suki as of now except me?While there are a bunch of persons trying to deflect the attention from Ange777. Really, it's disgusting to see how people turn from the lurker to the poster in the arc of three hours, whereas the poster has been active all the time.
And all of that happening in the last hours, making the outcome more uncertain, the mafia stronger. Would you mind explaining who is deflecting attention away from me? I think I made a pretty good case and took a clear stance in my gameplay, that is why people are switching their votes off of me and start voting Suki or Unforgiven. Yes, Suki was active for a far longer way than me but activity alone should not be a reason to not suspect someone or not lynch someone. Show nested quote +And frankly, even if Ange777 would turn out to be town, all this last hour confusion is thanks to her and the decision to play games when she can't be properly active in them. You don't join a game of starcraft to go afk while you play chess either, then to come back asking others for help when the enemy is in your base, blaming one of the guys who was playing actively.
If you are town, you should be really aware of the bad impact you are having on this game. I would frankly still lynch you just for that. I apologize for my absence. I am really sorry and I know that this impacts the game poorly and hurts the fun of playing Mafia. But this is no reason to lynch me. I am here and posting right now. Are you saying you would rather lynch me even if I am town than keep me alive? All in all I feel you don't care to comment on my posts at all. You again only try to discredit me and blame my lack of posting. It does get old after a while .... are you running out of reasons to defend Suki, your scum buddy? ##FoS VivaxAnd no, I don't give random FoS onto players who accuse me. I try to calmly explain my reasoning and talk to Vivax, but somehow he always dodges my concerns and has never given any defense for Suki's play. One little thing to add: Without me spamming the thread in the last few hours, even if you guys lynched me you would not have gained any information at all. Vivax, you should be happy that I started this discussion - as long as we do manage to lynch someone today of course.
All the time I wanted an explanation from him for Suki's gameplay. And all he delivers is my lurking is scummy, my unlurking is scummy and discredits me for being a bad person for lurking. He even goes as far as
On June 02 2012 06:14 Vivax wrote:
To me, it looks like people go extra soft on her to whiteknight.
Seriously? Yeah sure, that is why I claimed girl ...
With less than an hour to go he than switches his vote to me. It could be interpreted that you think a NL is worse than a sure mislynch (as you are so sure about Suki flipping town) but it could also be interpreted that you realise you can't safe your scum buddy anymore.
As it is close to deadline now I am pressured to finish this post and will therefore ask you to go through Vivax' filter closely again especially the new ones from night 1 and ask yourself if this really is just a bad townie player or if there isn't some scum motivation behind his behaviour.
His night 1 cases give me a very desperate vibe. Out of the blue he starts to make some cases again. He conveniently supports the case on heist or in his own words "bandwagons" on the heist case and even calls out Golden/ShiaoPi, which is a bad idea as Golden's posts don't suffice at the moment for any read. But these are safe cases as there is already some suspicion against heist and you never go wrong when accusing a lurker. In the beginning of night 1 he stated that he won't further comment on the happnenings of day 1 but focus on night 1. If I was town I would definitely try to explain myself why I defended scum the entire day, even gave scum a 100% town read and tunneled the player who revived the case for being scummy for lurking and bad as a person.
I also want to add this from his filter:
On June 01 2012 05:51 Vivax wrote:
I'm one of the most, if not the most active poster in this game so far. Assuming that I survive this day or night while being mafia, my posts make me so transparent that I wouldn't survive day 2 for certain. In that case, I would have played mafia like an idiot. Also cause I'm exposing myself quite extremely.
Whoever should be proven wrong for promoting the case against me in case I get lynched will most likely get in trouble the next day, cause I will flip town.
This is from his defense on the case against him. At that time he was in no serious danger of getting lynched yet he feeled the need to warn all the players not to lynch him. Very very odd.
3. TLDR
I think Vivax is scum because:
- His best argument in hunting scum has repeatedly been lurking=scum, active=town. Very flawed logic! Maybe to show that by his own standard and his own high activity he should be considered town?
- He only made "safe" cases until now. Case against Eishi was easy to start, so was his case against me and now heist, Golden/ShiaoPi
- When arguing with him about Suki, he never once talked about the content of Suki's post but always emphasized that my lurking play hurt town and therefore I should be lynched
- Even without once explaining his Suki town read he defended Suki till the end and only switched when there was no chance of getting me lynched
- Odd posts implying that one should not lynch him as he is townie (without being in danger), odd post of claiming I can't flip blue, a lot of flawed logic (two mafia can't vote each other), ....
I know that right now it might look like I am tunneling Vivax but he IS my top scum read. There might be a 1% chance of him playing an awful awful town play but I just can't see it. If Vivax you seriously want to convince me of you being town, then please start defending yourself.
(Good chance I missed something in my post as I was really crammed for time when typing this! Please bear that in mind and read Vivax' filter yourself!)
Unforgiven's play still doesn't strike me as townie even though he sided with the right vote .... don't know what to do with that right now.
And please don't forget the lurkers!
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Day 2
s0Lstice the Vanilla Townie was found in the lake facing the wrong way.
It is now Day 2. You have roughly 48 hours to get your votes in.
Deadline is 22:30 GMT (+00:00) as always.
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One of my town reads gone
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Holy shit Ange, this is gonna take a while 
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It's actually a summary of suspicious posts and interactions which hopefully should make a clear look at Vivax easier.
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GG s0Lstice. Good play buddy!
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
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And guess who his case was: heist. -_-
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On June 03 2012 07:19 Vivax wrote:
And guess who his case was: heist. -_-
That is something to consider but also keep in mind that everyone should read through the case and form his own opinion. He is dead which makes him a confirmed townie, but not everything he said should be taken for granted as that is trying to decipher Mafia's intentions which ends in WIFOM
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United States720 Posts
On June 03 2012 07:19 Vivax wrote:
And guess who his case was: heist. -_-
You don't say....
I'll have a defense of his accusation no matter that he's dead. Ugh. GG.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 03 2012 07:00 Ange777 wrote:
3. TLDR
I think Vivax is scum because:
- His best argument in hunting scum has repeatedly been lurking=scum, active=town. Very flawed logic! Maybe to show that by his own standard and his own high activity he should be considered town?
- He only made "safe" cases until now. Case against Eishi was easy to start, so was his case against me and now heist, Golden/ShiaoPi
- When arguing with him about Suki, he never once talked about the content of Suki's post but always emphasized that my lurking play hurt town and therefore I should be lynched
- Even without once explaining his Suki town read he defended Suki till the end and only switched when there was no chance of getting me lynched
- Odd posts implying that one should not lynch him as he is townie (without being in danger), odd post of claiming I can't flip blue, a lot of flawed logic (two mafia can't vote each other), ....
I know that right now it might look like I am tunneling Vivax but he IS my top scum read. There might be a 1% chance of him playing an awful awful town play but I just can't see it. If Vivax you seriously want to convince me of you being town, then please start defending yourself.
(Good chance I missed something in my post as I was really crammed for time when typing this! Please bear that in mind and read Vivax' filter yourself!)
Unforgiven's play still doesn't strike me as townie even though he sided with the right vote .... don't know what to do with that right now.
And please don't forget the lurkers!
Argument 1:
Yes, I should have totally ignored the lurkers and let them lurk to not force them to post something which might give us reads on them, that's an awesome idea for early game town.
The lurker lynching policy is general consensus here, as you might have noticed before your arrival. Now that pretty much everyone has posted something, you know that it's cause there are people favoring lurker lynches.
Argument 2:
Case against Eishi was the least supported case there has been so far, the only one stirring distrust against him was suki initially, but then he told me to put him and sciberbia aside to talk about other players.
Suki kept pushing cases against me more heavily than against Eishi_Ki.
The case against you wasn't safe either. There are enough inconsistencies in your play, one of them being you suspecting unforgiven but supporting his case (I think Milton disagreed and mentioned that it might have been bussing by unforgiven_ve, but so early?No way.
you said I should look at the times of the posts, I did that:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:25 Ange777 wrote:
What exactly is your so-called scumtell? That I side with Unforgiven on the case against Suki? If you read correctly, I changed my opinion on Unforgiven after his recent posts and only after my case on Suki.
I don't understand the problem. On June 02 2012 06:19 Ange777 wrote:
I would consolidate on a Unforgiven lynch as I have posted my concerns about his recent play. Still I believe Suki to be more scummy. On June 02 2012 06:16 Ange777 wrote:
Would you mind explaining who is deflecting attention away from me? I think I made a pretty good case and took a clear stance in my gameplay, that is why people are switching their votes off of me and start voting Suki or Unforgiven. Yes, Suki was active for a far longer way than me but activity alone should not be a reason to not suspect someone or not lynch someone.
You never discharged unforgiven, and that's where I saw the lie, especially given the close posting times contradicting themselves so clearly.
Argument 3:
Indeed, I wanted to lynch you for the sudden appearance throwing FoS at active townies after the votes on you started, and just then.
You had the worst possible timing to appear, by your own choice to focus on the other game, you acknowledged the points that the behavior was bad for the town, so I don't see how the lynching shouldn't have been justified.
Argument 4:
What's suspicious about switching when I'm trying by all means to get a day1 lynch? I was last to vote before heist.
This is an argument like argument 1, every townie here would have voted for suki to get the day 1 lynch, Eishi was afk, so was Golden, and suki just remained silent while I was unfortunately defending him already.
tl dr ;
At the moment you are blind to the scumreads that suki's death offers. You didn't even adress the two posts I've made about heists and golden based on sukis' stances in connection with them, and that together with the guy who just got killed.
S0lstice was ready to push the case along with me, and he's the least suspected townie here. Why should I kill the guy who's gonna support me in the case on heist and formerly Golden, the case I'm pushing with strong reads?
After a mafias' death, you first analyze their filter, then you might start attacking those who defended the dead mafia, and only bad mafia would defend their teammate directly (instead of deflecting to other players), the chain reaction after flipping mafia is obvious, so the defenders might be noob or misled townies like in my case.
On the other hand, I think heist and the O.Golden replacement will be screwed once i flip town in case of a lynch.
They will have one more kill at their disposal however.
This is all I have to say in my defense, be aware that I will ignore more accusations and just answer them with more reads from scumhunting, who are especially focused on sukis' ties.
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Edit : which are especially focused on sukis' ties -_-
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/okYmt.jpg)
