On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
I deliberately tried to undervalue the Viking against the Carrier, because I was aware that there's a lot of variance. Different players have had very different results with the unit. Like, what if it's Carrier/Chargelot against Marine/Viking? Or Carrier/Archon? Because of how much the Carrier interacts with every unit on the battlefield, I don't believe I'm qualified to make a complete judgment from pure theory. It's going to take a good few pro games to give a proper analysis of the situation.
And the BL/Ultra issue is mostly a problem with the Broodlord being too strong, in my opinion. Not a balance complaint, a design complaint. It drags certain reactions out of players that create unfortunate situations like the travesty that is lategame PvZ (Starcraft: Land the Vortex!) and the awkward position of lategame TvZ. The best solution that comes to mind is a slight increase in Ultralisk build time: not back to the stupidly high initial value, but enough that Terran gets a little more switching time. Maybe some way to scout if the Zerg is remaxing on Ultras? Or maybe the problem could be addressed by a Mech composition that works Banshees and Thors in? Not as strong as Marauders against Ultras, but something to work with.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
No it's 14 range once the interceptors are out, so kiting is impossible. Vikings need some kind of support to kill carriers unlike corruptors that have 2 armor and way more health. And the only real reliable support is marines
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
No it's 14 range once the interceptors are out, so kiting is impossible. Vikings need some kind of support to kill carriers unlike corruptors that have 2 armor and way more health. And the only real reliable support is marines
It's 14 range on that same target. You have to get back into 8 range to retarget. So it's 1 Volley, 1 Viking dies. 1 Volley, another Viking dies. Here's a hint, trading 1 Carrier for 1 Viking isn't a good trade.
On September 23 2012 01:32 GinDo wrote: Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Ground mode benefits from Mech Upgrades.
2) Drop the price to that of a Goliath.
Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Remove Vikings from the game.
2) Add the Goliath. :D :D :D
Seriously though, I think the Viking might also need more base armour or more base damage as well as your upgrade suggestion. I think the price might be okay, but you may be right about dropping it to Goliath price.
I really hate the OP's suggestion. How would you word in the game description? "Does not trigger Immortal's harden shield"? Awfully specific. But hopefully we'll see some other change to the Viking.
These "upgrade" suggestions are retarded, why do units need to be totally resdesigned before anyone even tries to adjust the numbers on the unit? I mean, even just changed the attack from a single attack for 12 damage to a double attack for 6 damage does the same effective thing without something as ridiculous as "ignores Immortal Shields" written on it. How does stuff like that get commented on?
Been thinking about this, I think the best solution would be to add a THIRD MODE, chicken walker mode. This mode hovers at 1.88 movement, doing same damage GtA and GtG as the old Goliath. This allows the Thor to be replaced as de facto GtA and thus change the Thor to something else, such as super tank role as was in the WoL alpha.
Ground Viking buff or the Upgrade changes would make terran terribly OP and the game more easy. They are already a strong counter to higher tech units then them such as the colossus, carrier or broodlord, no need for strong ground mode.
On October 03 2012 23:16 D4V3Z02 wrote: Ground Viking buff or the Upgrade changes would make terran terribly OP and the game more easy. They are already a strong counter to higher tech units then them such as the colossus, carrier or broodlord, no need for strong ground mode.
I don't think it needs to be "strong". Just better than what it is now.
-Blue-flame Hellions are guarenteed good harass in PvT. Need BW style Pylon blocking. -MsC makes early game PvT interesting. Keeps 1 Rax expand honest. (@15:00) Vikings can go toe to toe long enough to fight off Stalkers until reinforcements come. (@17:30) Terran doesn't take any advantage with an 80 supply lead. (@19:50) Vikings rapes MS. (@21:20) Terran completely overcommitted to Vikings. 17-18 Vikings to 2 Colossus and 1 Tempest. (@24:50) 200 supply Protoss army takes out 7 Tanks, Husky laments over how Tanks are so useless. (@25:05) Remaining Mech army annihilates Protoss army. (@27:40) Equal supply Immortal/Tempest/Archon/Zealot army raped by BH/Tank/Viking. (@27:50) Morrow shot himself in the foot for killing all his SCVs. (@31:05) 3 Vikings get MS even with Tempest support. (@31:25) Morrow mismicros and kills own unit right when engagement begins. Tanks caught off guard. Storms hit heavy BH composition. (@31:30) White-Ra wins because Morrow macro is basically done.
Honestly don't think Mech is in such a rough spot at the moment. It's all imaginary sentiment that Mech is so unwinnable. Terrans just don't like winning only 50% of the time. I don't see any suggestion from that game that Vikings are weak.
The thing about vikings vs carriers is that it is never ever like that in a real game. Theres rarely a moment where its vikings vs carriers without any other units. 2~3 HTs could instantly vaporise half the vikings count while forcing them to spread/take damage from interceptors. Or blink stalkers with carriers.
Same goes for the pure marine vs carrier comparisons. A few storms would literally kill them off.
Once a certain number of carriers hit the field, with the appropriate support it becomes very difficult to take them head on. So while i do think its possible that vikings can render carriers useless in the unit tester map, they are paper planes in real games because of how well carriers synergies with other units (if they have there micro mechanics back which looks like a good possibility).
On October 04 2012 12:34 YyapSsap wrote: The thing about vikings vs carriers is that it is never ever like that in a real game. Theres rarely a moment where its vikings vs carriers without any other units. 2~3 HTs could instantly vaporise half the vikings count while forcing them to spread/take damage from interceptors. Or blink stalkers with carriers.
Same goes for the pure marine vs carrier comparisons. A few storms would literally kill them off.
Once a certain number of carriers hit the field, with the appropriate support it becomes very difficult to take them head on. So while i do think its possible that vikings can render carriers useless in the unit tester map, they are paper planes in real games because of how well carriers synergies with other units (if they have there micro mechanics back which looks like a good possibility).
This is true, the fact remains is Protoss has tremendous synergy with its T3 units. For the Terran to produce the same effect, for every engagement he'll need at least 8 sieged tanks, some ghosts and 6-8 thors to even replicate the dps of several HTs. And by then the BC hasn't even come into firing range yet!
EPT
