|
Thing is the guy advertises his build as super burst kill everyone Viktor, not "tanky". I still think Zhonya's > Rylai though, 500 HP won't last you more than 3s (active+EHP from armour) and cds can be crucial.
Problem with "tanky" build is that Viktor's damage while relying on only Q and E is rather meh, especially without E augment (but that's another problem): by playing tankier, you're going to need void staff anyway. That's a part of why he's so ult-reliant, and your "dps" isn't that strong, I wouldn't try "tanky" Viktor unless my team already has a very high damage output to make up for my very relative contribution.
If you can't explode squishies, you'll naturally have longer fights ahead of you, which usually means that you have to deal with the frontline more, and they're typically the kind of champs that Viktor struggles against because of his low output and survivability, and delayed cc (W is strong for positional play/zoning, but against mobile champs it usually needs a setup). I'd say he falls off even harder in late game.
|
One thing I've found to help is to just build Lichbane as a last item (Usually that puts me at SorcShoes-Deathcap-Zhonyas-VoidStaff-Augment-Lichbane), it gives you some pushing power (in case of base trades or situations where you need to down shit fast), and gives you some added sustained damage and duelling power. But yea, I think certainly when compared to really low cd champs he does fall off late. However, I think people underestimate the effect stunfield has, it can be quite strong in teamfights
|
I don't see how people have trouble with Diana. Yes, she can be scary at lvl 6, but you harass the hell out of her before that, maybe get W at 4 depending on how scared you are of her, and then if she jumps you at lvl 6, you unload your full combo and watch her take all that damage to the face.
Sadly Diana is pretty tanky for a mid laner, therefore it's hard to make a lot of your damage stick on her. That, and if she hits you with q at 6+, she gets to go in and probably outtrade you. She gets the benefit of having cheaper mana costs for wave-clearing purposes, and also gets to come back with negatron first if she really wants to.
Plus she still has scaling mr. Because that makes sense.
|
On October 31 2013 01:36 Promises wrote:
One thing I've found to help is to just build Lichbane as a last item (Usually that puts me at SorcShoes-Deathcap-Zhonyas-VoidStaff-Augment-Lichbane), it gives you some pushing power (in case of base trades or situations where you need to down shit fast), and gives you some added sustained damage and duelling power. But yea, I think certainly when compared to really low cd champs he does fall off late. However, I think people underestimate the effect stunfield has, it can be quite strong in teamfights
I'm a huge fan of Lich Bane, I find it really lulsy. The MS is also really good on him.
|
On October 30 2013 01:18 Alaric wrote:
Guise is strong, but it doesn't provide that much survivability compared to 2 drings, and it ends up delaying your other items by 500-700 gold (depending on how you manage wards and pots you may sell a dring earlier, esp. if building stuff like Zhonya's with 2 big intermediate components). You don't really need the 15 MPen to kill squishies, and I'd rather get Zhonya's or Void Staff earlier to have a bigger impact in full teamfights that I seek to use my ult.
Viktor's going to have trouble reaching the backline and/or killing the frontline anyway, so I'd rather bank on higher survivability or kill potential, and void staff beats guise as soon as ~47 MR as far as MPen is concerned.
TL;DR: I don't feel like I need Guise at the point where he rushes it, and going double dring then void staff as first non-augment item is ~1500 gold more expensive, which isn't a huge window considering how well Viktor farms, while giving you equal or stronger damage all game long.
Void staff also costs 2200 gold compared to guises 1500 and also provides health.
My typical start is Double Dring/Death Augment(time this for level 8 or 9 ideally) ->Sorc/Guise->Death/Void depending on enemy team comp. I find that the early game spike power on the Guise (both the health and the Mpen) make for really solid roaming/skirmishes and in the early game when so few people have itemized against MR or leveled up enough that they have 50+ MR that the bonus damage and timing on Guise make it easy to snowball Viktor's mid game power spikes.
Because of Viktor's DoT on his E and R he is going to want to get Liandry's at some point anyway. The burn damage combined with the pen and HP make it too efficient to pass up. This lets Viktor have a lategame of Death Aug, Sorc, Liandry, Void, Rylai, D-Cap [With the order of D-Cap,Void, Rylai variable on the situation]. Which makes him both surprisingly tanky(+800 HP between the Liandry and Rylai + 200 or so HP on his shield) and ridiculously DPSy.
On October 30 2013 07:48 Alaric wrote:
Problem with "tanky" build is that Viktor's damage while relying on only Q and E is rather meh, especially without E augment (but that's another problem): by playing tankier, you're going to need void staff anyway. That's a part of why he's so ult-reliant, and your "dps" isn't that strong, I wouldn't try "tanky" Viktor unless my team already has a very high damage output to make up for my very relative contribution..
Not quite true. So long as you have E augment and you're level 13 or under, Viktor's two ability damage is comparable to most three ability damage champions(with his total effectiveness including shield easily comparable to any "damage on Q,W,E" champion). This is why level 13 is Viktor's primary power spike. Once enemies start being able to level up their third ability which has base damage/scaling Viktor is only getting utility on his stun. What is weak is his two ability consistent damage (compared to tankier/bruiser AP's like Diana or assassins like Fizz). You are absolutely right in that his damage if you build tanky is weak
Fortunately for Viktor at this point the game tends to move towards objective centered team fights where Viktor's R and W shine (especially at jungle chokepoints). It is totally OK to go for a full super-early game build on Viktor because you transition so well into teamfights anyway that you don't actually have to be strictly itemized for it. You can use your R and W to zone/damage the enemy back line while you deal with the front, or use your R and W to kill the enemy front line while peeling for your ADC* depending what the situation calls for. Because the total up time on your R is 7 seconds, if you use your full damage combo at the start of the fight and then use your W and R(move it to the enemy back line after using it) to zone the enemy back line by the time their back line can start engaging your E and Q will be up again (and their front line will most assuredly be dead )
*Probably one of the funniest games i've had as Viktor involved a vanye who didn't get that until late. We got in a team fight and their two bruisers would dive her. So all i had to do to win the team fight was drop W right on top of her and then go ult the backline.
|
|
|
So well in season 4, what is everybody building on Vik these days? Where I always used to go for a pure AP build or AP with some health (something like Deathcap-Zhonyas-Voidstaff-Deathfire or Rylais-Liandris-Zhonyas-Void), these days I rather favor the CDR and mana-regen build; Athene's/Morellos (against full AD), Deathcap-Zhonyas-Void). I feel the CDR and regen help me a lot during weird skirmishes and jungle fights, and just give a smoother ride overall.
What are you all building?
And as a seperate question, which champions do you fear as Viktor, and which do you love to fight?
|
Anything that moves is a pain in the ass. LeBlanc, Zed (unwinnable match-ups), competent Ahri (they're rare), etc.
Stuff that outranges you. There's a fuckton here too. Ziggs is Ziggs, so it's retarded and you'll farm with E while he plays solo. Syndra.
|
Zed is a tough match up, but definitely not unwinnable. With exhaust and seeker's he's only going to kill you with jungle help, so you can always just play safe and farm. Once you have augment death you can start poking him out as well. Champions like Zed are just really annoying because the delay on your ult cast and his shadows can make you completely whiff a lot of the time.
|
It's more that if you try to poke him with E he can freely dodge it with W and get close enough to damage you with Q and maybe E. Even if you drop the gravity field under him the cooldown on E is big enough that you won't hit one on him.
Add to that that if he wants to all-in you that's another Q/E dodge for free and another shadow to get out of W once you drop it. Plus he'll have sustain, no mana "problems", and he can use that to zone you, the same way LB does, if he doesn't want to shove.
|
Was watching Bjergsen's stream last night and there was a Viktor top on his team. He took the cheesy support poke page of mpen/X/mpen/mpen for a solid 20 MPen purely from runes. He absolutely wrecked shit.
Link to the replay from op.gg: http://na.op.gg/match/observer/id=1725737077
|
I'll have to check it out at some point.
In somewhat related news - if anyone has any desire to make a new Viktor thread, please feel free. Let's be serious, there's not a chance I'm going to update this one.
edit - although maybe I'll try that super pen build and see what it gets me. I have definitely been struggling to get Viktor to work this season.
edit 2 - I can't edit the OP even if I wanted to, button isn't there
|
I can't stand playing Viktor any more. I used to love him but now his Q-auto feels super awkward and clunky, its just not smooth at all.
|
On February 18 2015 11:31 sob3k wrote:
I can't stand playing Viktor any more. I used to love him but now his Q-auto feels super awkward and clunky, its just not smooth at all.
I kinda agree. It changes how you have to play the lane (which is tough for me after having so many S2/3 game with him). I really like the move speed boost though.
I tried playing him with the mpen/half armor half mp5/mpen/mpen (although I only had enough IP for 8 blues so I have 19 mpen) last night, but only had time for one game and the rest of the team did incredibly poorly.
I might make this another little project of mine cuz I'm so disappointed in how he feels in S5. Gotta figure this shit out. I've been rushing full augment first, but with the Morello changes (since S3) I might get that between 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd augment, not sure yet.
Just sucks that so many of the good mids right now are terrible matchups for Viktor. I'll try him top too, I'm sure.
|
gonna be streaming attempts to make Viktor work in S5
twitch.tv/jcarlsoniv
|
Initial attempts at Project: Viktor 2.0 are marginally successful.
21/0/9, mpen/half armor half mp5/mpen/mpen
Rush Augment 1 (E), Morello's, further damage items and augments later
Last couple of games I held off on any other Augments for quite a while. I think I may want to get Augment 2 (W) a little sooner cuz it's really strong in mid game team fights, but it's tough to say at this point. I'm sure I will continue this experiment.
Vods can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/jcarlsoniv/b/626656528
Game 1 was a shit show and Game 2 was a support game.
|
On February 17 2015 23:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I'll have to check it out at some point.
In somewhat related news - if anyone has any desire to make a new Viktor thread, please feel free. Let's be serious, there's not a chance I'm going to update this one.
edit - although maybe I'll try that super pen build and see what it gets me. I have definitely been struggling to get Viktor to work this season.
edit 2 - I can't edit the OP even if I wanted to, button isn't there
You can't edit the OP because of how long it's been since it was last edited. If you contact a mod they can unlock the editing function for the post.
|
On February 19 2015 23:46 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 23:12 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I'll have to check it out at some point.
In somewhat related news - if anyone has any desire to make a new Viktor thread, please feel free. Let's be serious, there's not a chance I'm going to update this one.
edit - although maybe I'll try that super pen build and see what it gets me. I have definitely been struggling to get Viktor to work this season.
edit 2 - I can't edit the OP even if I wanted to, button isn't there You can't edit the OP because of how long it's been since it was last edited. If you contact a mod they can unlock the editing function for the post.
I'm probably going to make a new thread, honestly - this one is super old and I kinda want to start fresh. So that's on my to-do list, hopefully I'll get something done in the near term.
|
Okay, I want to help with this.
|
On February 19 2015 23:56 Ketara wrote:
Okay, I want to help with this.
Cool, I'll talk to you about formatting and shits
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
