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TL Mafia XLII - Page 14
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
##Vote: Grassgiraffe On June 09 2011 20:08 AnxiousHippo wrote: I can account for this guy. He's my friend IRL, he won't let you down. Your friend said you wouldn't disappoint. Prove him wrong, make my day. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here. My first suspect for this game will be ilovejonn. He has 7 posts since game start, all of which are blanket posts that have no real content. Here are several of his posts: + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2011 11:54 ilovejonn wrote: I don't know... I think that requires a few (and by a few I mean a whole lot) more posts. Fluff On June 14 2011 12:15 ilovejonn wrote: @Varpulis I think I'll have to disagree with point number 2. I'd suggest waiting it out so that most people have posted and use their checks on who they think would be scum based on the posts made during night 0. I mean the whole point of this game IS to find scum, unless of course you find the posting behaviour of a "strong player" a bit suspicious, then yea go ahead and use your check on them. If not I heed people to wait until near the end of the night cycle to submit your actions. (unless of course you won't be there on time) Note the uncertainty in this post: "I think", "I'd suggest", "unless of course", "If not", "unless of course (again)". This is quite scummy behaviour, to me it looks like he's just trying to reassure everyone that you don't HAVE to follow his rules if you don't want to because he doesn't want to seem suspicious in any way whatsoever. Which a townie wouldn't do. Hell, not even a blue would do that. On June 14 2011 12:56 ilovejonn wrote: no This is in response to Sandroba's plan. While this is a lot more forward and not as uncertain as the previous post, he's still not contributing any content with this. If you look at this post as if ilovejonn was town, why would he bother making it? If you look at his mafia play (see below) this post kind of stands out pretty clearly. On June 14 2011 13:37 ilovejonn wrote: I'd also like to suggest that people on this list, if you're on towns side of course, to start posting, because you know, getting killed Night 0 sucks. Again with the "I'd also like to suggest". He also doesn't actually post anything, he just quoted the almighty Zodiac list and said "guys you should post" which is the entire point of the list in the first place. On June 14 2011 13:59 ilovejonn wrote: I think we need to move on. The plan is bad, no one should do what sandroba suggested, now we can all stop posting about it. "I think". Obvously the plan is bad, everyone is moving on, you want everyone to stop posting about it yet you're posting about it. There's nothing here, the plan's been heralded as terrible by most of the players. On June 15 2011 11:12 ilovejonn wrote: People who did not post N0: 10. sinani206 17. grassgiraffe 23. LandenC 24. Jacinto Putting 26. Lazorbear in as well for 1 very short post. What's the incentive for a townie posting this? Weeding out inactives. Has there been talk of an inactive lynch? No. Then why would you post this? To me this looks like ilovejonn is trying to quietly push for an (easy) inactive lynch by posting all the inactives. Notice that he doesn't just outright say "hey these guys are inactive, let's lynch one if he continues to lurk", he doesn't even accuse them of lurking. He literally only puts the list up and lets us make of it as we want. Which can only be one thing, an inactive lynch. This is so pure scum play. Content that's not real content, an agenda that's not explicitly stated and this goes well with his contentless posts that he made Night 0. He avoids the list by having posted pointless dribble. Now you might say "but youngminii, maybe he's just a bad town, you're being too harsh on him". Thankfully I went and looked at his game histories. I have two that I will share with you, one where he's a townie and one where he's scum. I'll only limit showing you the very early game posting habits of ilovejonn. + Show Spoiler [ilovejonn's town play] + Okay, for his town play I'll be referring to Mafia XXVIII. What I want you to see is how his posts are either (or a mixture of) helpful, loaded with content, fearless and very accusing. Here's a few of his first posts: On April 09 2011 08:12 ilovejonn wrote: All the newbs read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475 please On April 11 2011 00:11 ilovejonn wrote: If I appear to be inactive, that's because I am really sick atm. I've read 10+ pages and right now GMarshal and Protactinium are top of my list for mayor. However as there is no voting thread yet for whatever reason :S, I'm going to stay in bed and rest until the thread is up and my voting is required. I also like Protact's posts a lot more than GM. Yes, GM is easy to read, but I agree with Protact that he isn't superbly great at analysis. Protact's each and every post was filled with so much content, meeting quality over quantity in my eyes, and gets to the point without beating around the bush. As a town leader (yes, I know his win-condition is not town) and an analyst, I would much more likely be in favor of Protact. I believe even by having him alive in the early game while he still feels like siding with town, he can create a much ideal environment for the town. At least his posts motivate me to play and post better. Also, sure if you think me being sick is an excuse, but I just wanted to get this out there in the case I really cannot post due to illness. I'm already trying my best to keep up with this thread by at least posting Day 1. On April 12 2011 04:02 ilovejonn wrote: ##Vote ilovejonn Placeholder until I get back from work and read everything tonight. He's not even afraid to vote himself as a placeholder. That's how fearless he is as a townie, he doesn't give a second thought to "oh what if people think I'm abstaining my vote until later so I can voteswitch more easily". No, he just does it, because he has no reason to be scared. You are only scared if you are guilty. On April 12 2011 12:14 ilovejonn wrote: If my counting is correct, Dr. H is leading the mayor position with 13 votes and Pardoner landing onto GM with 12 votes. (By the time I am typing this up) There are people who have yet to vote, but with this many new players in the game I'm expecting 1 or 2 modkills. Somehow because GM attracts new players to vote for him it is very unusual and scummy. What I find more scummy is the fact that there are a ton of switch votes towards Dr. H that is making him lead in votes. Like Kavdragon said, Dr. H has said that he would not run for mayor, BUT because he doesn't trust anyone else as mayor other than himself (because that would avoid mafia influence) he ran for mayor. His whole mayor platform is just, "I'm willing to listen to town discussion but if I decide that the town decision doesn't sound right to me, I will lynch whoever I feel is scum. (Even when the majority of the town says the lynch target is not scum) Also, don't blame me if I lynched town because everyone makes mistakes." Yet, he is getting votes purely because of people having a town read on him. I want a townie as Mayor too, but definitely not Dr.H. Having said all this, I'm not saying that Dr. H is scum, I just do not feel comfortable with him being Mayor, especially with all the vote switches onto him. I'm inclined to believe there's at least 1 scum on the list of people that voted for him. These are a few people who decided to switch to him (not complete list of who voted for Dr. H) 13.kevconsim - GM > DocH 16.tnkted - tnkted > DocH > GM (changed vote while I was typing this) 18.urashimakt - Prot > DocH 27.DoctorHelvetica - GM > DocH (lol) 28.darmousseh - GM > DocH 33.redFF - Prot > DocH This list serves no purpose other than for me to keep track of who voted for what, but I decided to share it for those of you who do not do these types of record-keeping. My unwillingness to vote for Dr. H is based on the fact that there are many vote switches for him, as well as the general feelings I get from reading his posts. What I wanted was for GM to be Mayor and Protactinium as Pardoner. I'm not saying the Pardoner is not an important role. I have read about why having scum in this role is not beneficial as it gives reds a free no lynch cycle, but I am still willing to take the risk and offer Prot the position as I feel his abilities and skill can be very beneficial to town, even if he decides to turn against us during the late game. Think about it this way, we have him in the position, he uses his KP and DT checks depending on our decision or we lynch him. Except for his last one to complete his win condition of course. We don't have him in a position and he is forced to use his own judgement and KP that will most likely hit 1 or 2 townies (due to blacks are better off playing townie-like than-scum like). In conclusion, I will place my vote on Protactinium in hopes that he can get the Pardoner position. But the chances are probably very slim because there's less than an hour til Day ends. Just look at how much content this post has! This is great, this is analysis, this is deciding what to do and making a detailed post about what he feels and what he's going to do. All of those quotes were back to back, there was no mindless dribble between them, he didn't spam up the thread with one word posts, he made great posts that were of use to town. This is wildly different to how he's been playing this game. + Show Spoiler [ilovejonn's mafia play] + For his scum play I'll be referring to Mafia XXIX. Again, only the earlier posts (after the day post) as this is what pertains to the current context. On May 04 2011 12:36 ilovejonn wrote: blue font scared me there.... damn you. On May 04 2011 12:59 ilovejonn wrote: Apparently redtooth thinks Irish slipped cause he thought he knows 3-4 ppl playing in this game as ppl on his scum team. Just a misunderstood post imo. On May 04 2011 13:13 ilovejonn wrote: Yes guys.. don't edit. ever. Ahh, there's the ilovejonn we all recognise, all these posts are back to back, starting with his first post after the day post. Absolutely nothing, no content, ONE post faking content. I see a connection. On May 05 2011 04:26 ilovejonn wrote: Just finished reading the thread. I read really slow as I'm often thinking about other stuff when I read. First I'll give my opinion on the Irish13 discussion even though it has dropped. I like what redtooth did do get responses out of people but as he said himself, it became a null tell when almost everyone defended Irish. The post redtooth used to invoke responses from was a post that could have been misinterpreted by people and from seeing people defend Irish, it leads me to believe Irish isn't scum. I've only played 4-5 games on TL mafia, but I'd like to ask what does RSV/RQV stand for? Secondly, my gut feelings tell me that redtooth and chaoser are not scum based on their posts. They are actually quality posts, and even if they are scum, at least what they are posting benefits town for now. It is better to heed the advices in their posts than to bash them for it (for now). I don't want another Kavdragon incident in here again where we lynch someone because they are "too pro-town". Pretty silly. Last but not least, FOS Kurumi and Airblade. Kurumi for his posting behaviour. Why are you posting like that? Maybe English isn't your first language but what about the post with numbers? Are you trying to breadcrumb something? I'm just not understanding your posts. Airblade for saying "At least if we lynch him and he flips town, we won't have to attempt to read those type of posts anymore." That is extremely anti-town. Of course you would want to lynch someone who isn't scum, because then you'd waste a day AND lynched a townie, am I right? Wishy washy. No REAL fos, just a few uncertain questions asked. Also he posts this after other people have already basically raised the same issues. I'm aware ilovejonn hasn't made any posts like this in the current game but I point this out because it is textbook scum play and he's displaying the usual uncertainty and "oh no I'm guilty how do I cover it up as best I can?". On May 05 2011 04:34 ilovejonn wrote: I don't think you should kid about lynches. Our votes are very valuable and it's basically our only way of killing scum. "I don't think", note how he doesn't say this in his town play. On May 05 2011 07:03 ilovejonn wrote: I think this is true. I don't know why he would ask questions such as what was your mafia experience. Sure it generates discussion but is any of that really relevant to scum hunting? Unless this is another one of his plans to draw out responses.. Speaks for itself, not real content, similar to posts in current game. I'm going to end this here. Even though there are more posts I can quote, they're mostly of the same dribble and will only repeat what I've been trying to point out. You can check it out yourself. Verdict? I'm voting for ilovejonn, he's the best lynch candidate (and the first of the game I guess) I can see. I am well aware I'm under scrutiny because of that Zodiac list crap and that if I am wrong about this, I might just be creating an easy bandwagon for mafia to jump on. That said, if you are a townie make sure you don't just jump on the bandwagon until you've read the analysis and read his responses. I eagerly await your response, ilovejonn. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Since there's no voting thread yet, ##Vote ilovejonn And happy birthday aidnai ^^ | ||
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ilovejonn
Canada2548 Posts
First off, I'm not going to make a rebuttal out of every point you made because clearly with your PbPA you're stretching a lot of points to justify a conclusion you already had in mind beforehand with posts that don't actually add anything. Also, don't try to do a meta-read on me, I might be playing different because I want to, I may be playing different because I've learned a few things, I might like to use "I think" or "unless of course" because I deemed it necessary to show that I am unsure (it was n0 after all). When you meta read someone, you're heavily biased to see what you wanted to see in the first place anyways. Let's read one of those points: Note the uncertainty in this post: "I think", "I'd suggest", "unless of course", "If not", "unless of course (again)". This is quite scummy behaviour, to me it looks like he's just trying to reassure everyone that you don't HAVE to follow his rules if you don't want to because he doesn't want to seem suspicious in any way whatsoever. Which a townie wouldn't do. Hell, not even a blue would do that. What makes you say a townie wouldn't do that? Wait a minute, I read my post again and what? You take those words out of context and shape them into something that you deem scummy. I lol'd. It also seems to be a recurring theme in your analysis. I'm done here because I don't want to waste time defending myself when I could possibly find scum, but I like the direction you're going for generating discussion since there aren't any posts since Day 1 started, so thanks. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
However, there is one point I actually found really suspicious, and I think it's the main point of his analysis: Your random list of inactive townies. First, you don't sugest we do anything with it. A random out of place list adds nothing if there is no opinion behind it. You don't say "let's pressure those players into posting" or "Let's lynch the inactives". It's a empity contribution. Second is the fact that even though you had posted 7 times so far, you actually contributed exactly the same as those players. If your intention with that list is putting those players under scrutiny on the bases they have not contributed, your behaviour is certainly controversial. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 15 2011 14:52 ilovejonn wrote: hokay there buddy. First off, I'm not going to make a rebuttal out of every point you made because clearly with your PbPA you're stretching a lot of points to justify a conclusion you already had in mind beforehand with posts that don't actually add anything. Also, don't try to do a meta-read on me, I might be playing different because I want to, I may be playing different because I've learned a few things, I might like to use "I think" or "unless of course" because I deemed it necessary to show that I am unsure (it was n0 after all). When you meta read someone, you're heavily biased to see what you wanted to see in the first place anyways. Let's read one of those points: What makes you say a townie wouldn't do that? Wait a minute, I read my post again and what? You take those words out of context and shape them into something that you deem scummy. I lol'd. It also seems to be a recurring theme in your analysis. I'm done here because I don't want to waste time defending myself when I could possibly find scum, but I like the direction you're going for generating discussion since there aren't any posts since Day 1 started, so thanks. Interesting post. I'm not really stretching a lot of points, your posts literally fall into my big box of scum. I am not meta-reading you, I am using meta to support my argument, there's a difference. Also, I'd have to ask, why would you play differently if you won both games, alive and well? That's easy, you're not. You can't just decide to switch off who you are. How did I take those words out of context? The context is you saying those things in this game and in the game you were mafia. A townie doesn't say these things, a townie says what's on his mind without hindrance. You don't want to waste time defending yourself, but you're not finding scum either. You've been decently active and haven't made a single post with content in it. This is a contradiction. Your response has been pretty poor so far, did you even read the part where I showed your scum play and your town play? You kind of just ignored it and said "I might be playing different because I want to", which isn't really a defense. There's no real discussion other than this so unless you're actually going to go find some scum, why don't you spend some time defending yourself? There's nothing else to do so far, why are you avoiding the pressure? | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233624 | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
ilovejonn: youngminii is the only one accusing you... Why are you responding with such a long argument? You should ignore accusations like that and just look for more scum. The fact that you are even responding at all is kind of scummy. Just ignore pressure accusations like that and scumhunt. No need for this defense. | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:09 sinani206 wrote: youngminii: Stop metagaming. Or at least if you have to, don't use it as your only argument. I can see why would be useful in some situations, but with a N0 start, playstyles will be drastically different. It's a good start for early pressure, but don't make it your only argument against anyone. ilovejonn: youngminii is the only one accusing you... Why are you responding with such a long argument? You should ignore accusations like that and just look for more scum. The fact that you are even responding at all is kind of scummy. Just ignore pressure accusations like that and scumhunt. No need for this defense. ? Playstyles aren't different just because of a Night 0 start. I don't get it, there's literally no other discussion, why am I not allowed to accuse/pressure people? Why should he get to ignore it? He's not scumhunting, as we can obviously see, why shouldn't he take the time to defend himself? How is responding to it scummy? None of what you are saying is making sense, except that I am indeed the only one accusing him. | ||
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ilovejonn
Canada2548 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:09 sinani206 wrote: youngminii: Stop metagaming. Or at least if you have to, don't use it as your only argument. I can see why would be useful in some situations, but with a N0 start, playstyles will be drastically different. It's a good start for early pressure, but don't make it your only argument against anyone. ilovejonn: youngminii is the only one accusing you... Why are you responding with such a long argument? You should ignore accusations like that and just look for more scum. The fact that you are even responding at all is kind of scummy. Just ignore pressure accusations like that and scumhunt. No need for this defense. I did stop. I don't feel any pressure at all. The only reason I responded was that there's no discussion at all before his post, and I wanted the discussion to keep coming, we finally have a talking point. I've still got 40+ hours to scum hunt, and it's not like I'm going to be posting every hour saying "I'm currently reading everyone's post just bare with me!" to show that I'm doing stuff when I'm not posting in the thread. I hope people realized Day has begun and discussion has started. People that were on my list, perhaps you had no incentive to post during Night 0 but I urge you to post during the Day, or you know what's coming.. | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
I know that discussion is necessary, but I still feel that time and brainpower are better spent scumhunting than defending yourself. Look for people that were scummy during the night time and pressure them. The pressure on ilovejonn is based on metagame and that is pretty much worthless with the PMs and N0 start. This game is different and you have to be able to accept that. You can't use metagaming as an easy way out to actually analysing players. | ||
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ilovejonn
Canada2548 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:04 youngminii wrote: How did I take those words out of context? The context is you saying those things in this game and in the game you were mafia. A townie doesn't say these things, a townie says what's on his mind without hindrance. On June 14 2011 12:15 ilovejonn wrote: @Varpulis I think I'll have to disagree with point number 2. I'd suggest waiting it out so that most people have posted and use their checks on who they think would be scum based on the posts made during night 0. I mean the whole point of this game IS to find scum, unless of course you find the posting behaviour of a "strong player" a bit suspicious, then yea go ahead and use your check on them. If not I heed people to wait until near the end of the night cycle to submit your actions. (unless of course you won't be there on time) Note the uncertainty in this post: "I think", "I'd suggest", "unless of course", "If not", "unless of course (again)". This is quite scummy behaviour, to me it looks like he's just trying to reassure everyone that you don't HAVE to follow his rules if you don't want to because he doesn't want to seem suspicious in any way whatsoever. Which a townie wouldn't do. Hell, not even a blue would do that. Tell me again why a townie would not say those things. Everything I said was to include an extra option to show that you should not do something straight forward and instead be flexible based on what might happen in the future. And you're telling me a townie wouldn't say it out, biased much. Going to sleep see you in a few hours. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Anyway, first off, I am scumhunting, I made this post because ilovejonn's play is scummy to me. I am using meta to back my argument, not AS my argument. Second, will you please look for yourself and see that he is not making any effort whatsoever to scumhunt? If he's not going to do anything, take the time to defend yourself. This is not a defense. Just in case you can't separate it for yourself, here is my accusation WITHOUT the meta. + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2011 11:54 ilovejonn wrote: I don't know... I think that requires a few (and by a few I mean a whole lot) more posts. Fluff On June 14 2011 12:15 ilovejonn wrote: @Varpulis I think I'll have to disagree with point number 2. I'd suggest waiting it out so that most people have posted and use their checks on who they think would be scum based on the posts made during night 0. I mean the whole point of this game IS to find scum, unless of course you find the posting behaviour of a "strong player" a bit suspicious, then yea go ahead and use your check on them. If not I heed people to wait until near the end of the night cycle to submit your actions. (unless of course you won't be there on time) Note the uncertainty in this post: "I think", "I'd suggest", "unless of course", "If not", "unless of course (again)". This is quite scummy behaviour, to me it looks like he's just trying to reassure everyone that you don't HAVE to follow his rules if you don't want to because he doesn't want to seem suspicious in any way whatsoever. Which a townie wouldn't do. Hell, not even a blue would do that. On June 14 2011 12:56 ilovejonn wrote: no This is in response to Sandroba's plan. While this is a lot more forward and not as uncertain as the previous post, he's still not contributing any content with this. If you look at this post as if ilovejonn was town, why would he bother making it? If you look at his mafia play (see below) this post kind of stands out pretty clearly. On June 14 2011 13:37 ilovejonn wrote: I'd also like to suggest that people on this list, if you're on towns side of course, to start posting, because you know, getting killed Night 0 sucks. Again with the "I'd also like to suggest". He also doesn't actually post anything, he just quoted the almighty Zodiac list and said "guys you should post" which is the entire point of the list in the first place. On June 14 2011 13:59 ilovejonn wrote: I think we need to move on. The plan is bad, no one should do what sandroba suggested, now we can all stop posting about it. "I think". Obvously the plan is bad, everyone is moving on, you want everyone to stop posting about it yet you're posting about it. There's nothing here, the plan's been heralded as terrible by most of the players. On June 15 2011 11:12 ilovejonn wrote: People who did not post N0: 10. sinani206 17. grassgiraffe 23. LandenC 24. Jacinto Putting 26. Lazorbear in as well for 1 very short post. What's the incentive for a townie posting this? Weeding out inactives. Has there been talk of an inactive lynch? No. Then why would you post this? To me this looks like ilovejonn is trying to quietly push for an (easy) inactive lynch by posting all the inactives. Notice that he doesn't just outright say "hey these guys are inactive, let's lynch one if he continues to lurk", he doesn't even accuse them of lurking. He literally only puts the list up and lets us make of it as we want. Which can only be one thing, an inactive lynch. This is so pure scum play. Content that's not real content, an agenda that's not explicitly stated and this goes well with his contentless posts that he made Night 0. He avoids the list by having posted pointless dribble. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:31 ilovejonn wrote: Tell me again why a townie would not say those things. Everything I said was to include an extra option to show that you should not do something straight forward and instead be flexible based on what might happen in the future. And you're telling me a townie wouldn't say it out, biased much. Going to sleep see you in a few hours. Yes, I am saying a townie wouldn't be as secure as you were in your posts. It's something that scum tend to do so that they don't appear to support a point/argument/strategy too much in case the rest of the town rejects said point/argument/strategy, in which case the scum would think he's drawn too much attention. It's a psychological thing. | ||
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FudgeMunkey
Australia59 Posts
It seems as if the 'scum' never seem to support a strategy and instead find ways to make it look like its incorrect/false or just plain stupid... They hope to make it look like the person there arguing with is obviously Scum rather than townie or Blue. | ||
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sinani206
United States1959 Posts
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