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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:05 Mig wrote: Ace's role can only shoot liars. So have everyone claim town then the Ace vig could only shoot the mafia since they were lying. Yeah but it can misfire so it might end in suicide too. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
i don't think the role works like that, ace has to prove to the host that his target is lying, he can't just claim that he is lying and then the shot will go through if he actually is lying duh | ||
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
I mean how exactly do you expect Ace to be able to prove it? Does he hook up a polygraph machine to his suspect? He shows the host something the person says, if it is a lie the shot goes through if it is the truth it doesn't. I mean please tell me what other way the role could possibly work. Duh | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
duh ... if you're right then i think that the role is unbelievably op Will Ace be able to shoot random people who claim town aligned and then only kill if they turn out to be 3rd party/scum, thus acting as a DT who kills his targets if they're scum? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Today we have one very specific goal: Try to organize an effective picking strategy for town. This is my fourth PYP game, but that doesn't necessarily mean much, as this is a wildly different set-up. 15 Town vs 12 Mafia means that plans which were excellent for past games, no longer necessarily apply. Also, several roles which were extremely powerful in mafia hands, are now a much lesser threat to town(as mafia have a good chance of targeting each other). My strength as a player is not necessarily coming up with iron-clad plans, and I don't expect this to be iron-clad. I need input, and I almost always need help with the details. Please don't nit-pick details at this stage, and if you see a problem then look for a solution. First off, lets talk about previous plans and if they will work in this set-up: A 'No Pick' List: The idea behind a no-pick list is we come up with a list of roles(mafia favoured roles) and put them on this list. Any player found with one of these roles(via use of power or role-check) is more or less treated as red. Originally this was combined with Bullet-Bill to give him maximum effectiveness. However, this type of plan was always somewhat flawed, and doesn't allow town players to take roles in an effort to deny mafia. Role Denial: Having Town players take heavily pro-mafia favoured roles in an effort to keep them out of mafia hands(recruiting GF/CPR doc etc.). Typically this is achieved by assigning certain slots(top or mid-top) to prioritize and take these roles. By knowing which pick has taken a certain role, this allows us to keep tabs on OP roles like Inventor or in past games, CompVig. This is one of the most important things town can do in my opinion. Even if we organize in no other way, WE HAVE to have several top picks take certain roles as denial. However, the key is figuring out which roles are actually so dangerous as to worry about. Ver's PYP Plan: -top 6-7 picks take the best town roles and defensive roles. -picks 8-11ish take the 'accountable' roles (caller GF, thief, inventor, cpr doc mainly) -rest pick whatever This approach is taken because the mafia cannot guarantee more than 1 member in the top 6+ picks, while they can guarantee any number of members in the middle or bottom picks. This is a good plan, but notice the bolded section. Given that there is a 15 vs 12 ratio in this game, we cannot guarantee by any means that more than a few of the top 6/7 roles will be town aligned. Also, Ver has picks 8-11 taking the 'accountable' roles(role denial) but that works less well in this set-up. If player 8 tries to take a role, only to wind up vanilla, he CANNOT blow the whistle without roleclaiming vanilla, opening him up to both the assassin, and Bloodycobbler roles. Assigning Picks: In PYP2 I tried to organize a system which would land us as many investigative roles as possible by giving everyone a % chance to take a certain investigative/defensive or miscellaneous role. I'm not going to go into detail here, as with only 15/27 players town aligned, this makes a mediocre plan very bad. ________________________________ What are our picking strategy goals? How do they differ from past PYP games? Goals: * Accumulate as many investigative roles as possible into town hands. * Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) * Make a priority list of town roles That's it. No complicated schemes, no major pick assignments or no-pick lists. Mainly townies will be choosing for themselves which role is best. The main way in which this game differs from previous PYP incarnations is that most of the roles are far, far less scary for town. CPR Doc or Comp Vig(or any role which gives 2 or more KP) are normally heinously frightening roles for town to deal with, as they straight up double mafia KP. However, KP roles(in mafia hands) in this set-up have a decent chance of killing off other mafia players(1 in 3 chance of hitting mafia at beginning of game). While these multiple KP roles are still something to worry about, they are no longer game breaking. Second, we no longer need to fear the killer combos that mafia can summon up. Assassin+Role Cop or Capitalist!? Politician + Kingmaker or America!? No longer all that frightening, because mafia have an excellent chance of overlapping their picks. Three teams are all vying for the same power roles and the same combos, which means the chance of Team A getting politician and Team B getting kingmaker fairly decent. At any rate they cannot guarantee them even if we ignore the combos. _______________________________ Accumulate as many investigative powers into town hands. Blues don't win mafia games... analysis does. Don't rely on DT's to do the work. Right...RIGHT? Unfortunately... kinda wrong. In this game we have an inordinate amount of scum to catch. Every townie in this game is looking at 14 town players and 12 mafia..... it's brutal and it's precisely why we need investigative roles. Defensive roles are also important given that we will have at least 3 KP(probably more like 5) per night, for most of the game, but I expect players to mix these in on their own initiative. There are two main reasons we need to prioritize dt type roles this game: First and easiest: Mafia don't want them. Most of the investigative roles in this game are far, far more powerful for town than for mafia. Chances of mafia prioritizing them are low, which means town should have their pick of the litter. If a mafia team uses one of their picks to deny an investigative role to town, this puts them at an immediate disadvantage compared to the other two mafia teams which took all pro-mafia roles. Investigative roles, unlike Defensive or Offensive roles, are much less likely to be taken, and hence give us a greater chance to actually get blue roles. In no way am I suggesting we only try to take Investigative roles and ignore the others, that would be foolish. Instead I'm simply suggesting that we need to make DT-Roles a higher priority than Def or Off roles. Second: Behavior analysis is going to be extremely tough this game. Typically when a player leads lynches against multiple mafia, or shoots a mafia in the face, we can (at least temporarily) cross them off the list of potential mafia. Not so this game. Voting lists, night actions and good reads will not prove a townie. Every mafia player has 8 other players to try to find and kill to buy town-cred. This is great for us as town in a way, but unfortunately makes it extremely difficult to find mafia. This is precisely why any role which can correctly identify mafia is extremely important to us as town. In this game, investigative roles are in many situations going to trump behavior analysis. Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) This is where we need a lot of discussion, and where I am most hazy about the optimum strat. Roles that need to be held accountable: Inventor, Assassin, Thief, RoleSwapper. CPR Doc and Vote Rigger are on the outskirts. JOAT is so good it doesn't necessarily need to be held accountable, but needs to be talked about. Inventor: Absurdly powerful. Basically won the game for town in PYPInsane by giving town a listcheck, and a Police Radio. I have no doubt that this role in mafia hands would be just as deadly. There is absolutely no way to ensure that this role ends up in town hands. None. Therefore, it is essential that we know who has it. All inventions are announced publicly, which means that if that player misuses the role, we can lynch/vig him. Unfortunately this leaves the Inventor wide open to be sniped immediately(1 minute into day 1) by the Assassin. Therefore it is important we know who the assassin is. PICK #1+ Show Spoiler + Inventor should be making list checks, and only list checks. With twelve mafia in this game, the potential for game breaking list checks is off the chart. In a normal game, list checks look like the following, and are extremely overpowered: 2/5 mafia 1/5 mafia 2/7 mafia 3/10 mafia 0/4 mafia etc. However, in this game we have potential for checks that look like this: 4/5 mafia 5/5 mafia 7/9 mafia etc. A single check like that would blow this game out of the water for town. No other potential invention power can do something like this(though Police Radio came close). There do exist a framer and a godfather(who changes both his own and another's alignment) and that could reek some havoc on the listchecks. Also, if the inventor gives his listcheck to a mafia player it spells trouble as well. No matter what we choose though, we should try to decide in advance what invention the inventor should give out, as this gives us the ability to keep tabs on him. Assassin: We need to know who has this role. First off so they can't kill the inventor. More importantly though is that the ability to roleclaim in a PYP set-up is very very important for town. Think of how many town players in PYPInsane roleclaimed: The listcheckDT, bulletproof, modern detective, tracker, role cop, both inventors, multiple vanillas, etc etc. This role directly hampers towns ability to organize and gather information, not to mention that if combined with Capitalist, Role Cop, NKVD or Extractor it becomes extremely powerful for mafia. PICK #2 Thief and Role Swapper : These roles need to be accounted for only because of the fact they can swipe the Inventor or Assassin. If we are committing to keeping tabs on those two roles, then by default we also need to assign the Thief and Role Swapper. PICKS #3 and 4 CPR Doctor: In a normal PYP set-up, this is an essential role to block, as it adds immensely to mafia kill power. However, in this set-up it is much less scary to town. First, there is a chance that any shot will kill mafia instead of town(~33%). Second, there is a chance that the CPR doc will actually SAVE someone. With likely 4 or 5 KP per night the CPR doc will get progressively more likely to start making saves. Combine that with the fact that separate mafia factions will be trying to kill the same strong townies, and the chance for a save climbs even higher. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK Vote Rigger: In most set-ups a vote rigger is extremely powerful in mafia hands. Not this game though. Why not? We have a Pardoner in the set-up. Not only that, but Protactinum has stated the Pardoner has ability to set conditions on his Pardon in the event he is not around. This means the Pardoner can state he will always use his Pardon if a vote rigger's powers are activated. Poof, vote rigger is hard countered before the game has even begun. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK JOAT Very Very strong. Excellent for either mafia or town and as such needs to be a top pick in the hopes it finds a home in town hands. PICK #5 + Show Spoiler + I realize players do not like having their picks dictated, and I realize that part of the fun for people is to get roles they will have fun with. However, with a 15 vs 12 split, we seriously need every town player to be a team player. This plan means that we are allocating the first 5 slots particular roles: 1. Inventor 2. Assassin 3. Thief 4. Role Swapper 5. JOAT Keep in mind however, that the top picks are very likely going to be mafia players. Each mafia team can co-ordiante their picks, therefore they are far more likely to wind up with with a unique number, and hence more likely to be near the top of the list(Which is why JOAT is down at #5). This is both a benifit to us and a detriment. It's good for town because it forces mafia to take the picks we allocate to them or expose themselves if they do not. It's bad for us in that a mafia player can let a role 'slip' down the list for a buddy, and we'll never see it again. However I don't think this is a huge downside, since we get to kill the mafia player who lets it slip. Meaning the mafia have to abandon a player simply to get a strong role(putting them at a disadvantage to the other mafia teams). It's not ideal for town, but it's better than the alternative.+ Show Spoiler + Let's assume that Incogito has the first pick, and that town has assigned him to take Inventor. However, he takes a different role instead, and lets Inventor slip to the #7 slot, where his mafia buddy Qatol is waiting and picks it up. If at any point in the game it becomes obvious that the inventor is mafia, we simply lynch Incognito. This doesn't kill the inventor, but it at least kills a mafioso. Remember that the alternative to the assigned picks is having no idea where the Inventor is to start with. This means that if anti-town inventions start showing up we don't even get a confirmed mafia out of the deal. Make a priority list of town roles As I see it, these are the strongest roles for town, in relative order, and by category: Investigative: 5Jack 5Inventor 5Detective 5NKVD 4Parity Cop 4Capitalist 4Bullet Bill 3Role Cop Watcher- NO Tracker - NO Defensive 4Medic 4Rock Star 4Witch 3Jailkeeper 3Bulletproof 3Doctor 3Meth Man 3Veteran Martyr - NO Hider- NO Hero - NO NRA Member - NO(unless you want to claim it night 1) KP 4Vigilante 4Dreamflower 3.5Day Vig 3.5America 3.5King Maker 3Mad Hatter 3Bad Santa 3BC 3Ace Other Qatol Copy Cat The rest is basically non-optimal roles. This gives us a townie pick list that contains these roles. If you want to pick something else, that's fine, but I see these roles as the best roles for town(In very rough order): Jack Inventor Detective NKVD Parity Cop Doctor Rock Star Vigilante Dreamflower Capitalist Medic Witch Day Vig Bullet Bill America King Maker Jailkeeper Bulletproof Bad Santa BC Ace Qatol Role Cop Meth Man Veteran Mad Hatter Copy Cat This gives approximately 25 roles for the 15 town-aligned players. The rest of the roles are not really worth taking for townies. The further down on the pick-list you are, the further down this role list you would pick, always keeping an eye towards the investigative roles though(which are a bit too clumped towards the top for this strat). This presumably gives us a fairly decent chance of getting as many quality blues as possible. _____________________ What does this plan do, and what does it not do? *Assigns the top 5 players roles which are dangerous, and are essential for town to know their whereabouts. *Gives town a general priority list for making picks, hopefully minimizing overlap and maximizing investigative roles. * Does not attempt to block all strong mafia picks, instead allowing mafia to cockblock themselves and get more vanilla players, putting them at a disadvantage to town Have a problem with the plan? Great! Lets talk about it. Don't pop in and snipe 1 little problem though. This is something that needs to be sorted out, and needs to be sorted out before the pick list is revealed. Input is needed. ------------------- Some notes on various roles: Janitor: Not in the least bit frightening. We already learn way less from a flip since mafia will be attacking mafia all over the place. Losing 1 flip is nothing to be afraid of. With an investigative role heavy line-up, town is strongest at night anyways. Showtime! and Vote Rigger:Completely nullified by any competent pardoner. Neither of their abilities should ever go unpardoned. Doctor: Excellent in this set-up as you are either normal, jailkeeper, or weak... And you are told if you are weak! A weak doctor can act as another investigative role. This doesn't work if you don't know your sanity, but in this case you do. Step 1, telegraph your protections "I think blank should be protected tonight", Step 2, you either die and get flipped as a weak doctor(implicating your breadcrumb), or you live and have a confirmed townie. Simply a fantastic role. NRA Member If you take this role as a townie, you absolutely have to claim it day/night 1. The chances of tearing our blues apart are way too high. By claiming you do not even open yourself up to hits, as you cannot be roleblocked. This role should be treated as a buffed up BP Vest. Politician Kinda scary, as there is a decent chance the mafia can team up a kingmaker/america with the politician. However, this means they are using two of their powers for 1 extra KP. I'm not sure how scary that really is considering the other potential powers. Not to mention they run the risk of overlapping with other mafia teams, and making themselves vulnerable to role checks once they activate their powers for evil. Bomber Man Somewhat scary, but fairly likely to hit other mafia members, and fairly likely to explode prematurely and not do maximum damage. Not all that potent in this set-up. Cupid Useful for mafia only to kill a strong defensive role. Other than that it only adds a single KP. Vigilante With two shots, this is probably one of town's best offensive weapons. Dreamflower Pointless for mafia to take, so players at the bottom of the list should think of taking this role(no need to take it high). Again, telegraphing here is important(but be subtle) as your death can confirm an innocent. Roleclaiming and asking for medic protection is possibly worthwhile in this situation. | ||
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:54 chaoser wrote: Woot woot, let's get this started! An important note to everyone, the Pardoner is basically a Prince of Darkness x2 and while there's a lot of KP in this game, there's also a lot of defensive roles in this game as well. A mafia team with medics+Pardoner with Hero as his ability would be horrible for town. As such, they'll probably fake an aim for mayor and actually want pardoner instead. I learned my lesson in XXXIX with GM -_-. We need to get rid of the pardoner outright as early as possible. Pardoner is a threat, but if they ever use their power inappropriately they get lynched. Scary in the endgame, and needs to be eliminated before we get down to 6-8 players, but for now it is an excellent insurance policy against the Vote Rigger and Showtime!. On October 12 2011 14:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I don't like the idea of re-thinking the pro-town stance. We might need to make it harder to gain credit for pro-town play, but we shouldn't overhaul the system. Pro-town play is still pro-town, but mafia have more incentives than usual to do it. Multiple candidates for the lynch is better than usual. Mafia attempts to rig the vote may land on another mafia member, and then we get a ton more information than in a standard vote-rigging scenario. Until someone lynches a player from each mafia faction, there is no pro-town player. Obviously if a player is actively lynching scum, then they won't be on the chopping block, but each and every player is still a suspect until they kill someone from all three houses. THEN they get to the point where in a normal game we would give them likely townie status. Look at my play in PYP1: Lynched two mafia and was successfully organizing town.... as the serial killer. The same approach for mafia exists in this game: Legitimately lynch other scum players, use your town-cred to cruise to victory. On October 12 2011 14:19 Cyber_Cheese wrote: The watcher definitely isn't as powerful as usual, but it's still useful to have some idea how many people visited a target, and then see how many claim to. I'm thinking that would work better with small numbers, eg. confirming to yourself one or two people at a time. Watcher is one of the worst roles in this game. It's only redeeming feature is the potential for Bum to write us a story. On October 12 2011 19:16 Mig wrote: I am fairly sure in personality that is all the Ace role had to do. Because we went through this scenario where everyone had to say the words I am town before. If that's true, then the Ace role is extremely powerful for town. Questions: Can Cupid target the NRA Member at night without dying? For the purposes of the BC role, what constitutes a roleclaim? If I say "I tried to get DayVig but didn't get it", does that equate to a vanilla role claim? If I state I have bodyguards(but am not the mayor) does that equate to a Rock star role claim? If I state I have an investigative role, and all the other investigative roles are dead, is that a roleclaim? Approximately where is the line drawn? | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:15 Radfield wrote: + Show Spoiler [The post] + The game has started. Anyone who is waiting till 'Day 1' to start posting is playing the wrong game. We all know our alignments, therefore the game has begun. Today we have one very specific goal: Try to organize an effective picking strategy for town. This is my fourth PYP game, but that doesn't necessarily mean much, as this is a wildly different set-up. 15 Town vs 12 Mafia means that plans which were excellent for past games, no longer necessarily apply. Also, several roles which were extremely powerful in mafia hands, are now a much lesser threat to town(as mafia have a good chance of targeting each other). My strength as a player is not necessarily coming up with iron-clad plans, and I don't expect this to be iron-clad. I need input, and I almost always need help with the details. Please don't nit-pick details at this stage, and if you see a problem then look for a solution. First off, lets talk about previous plans and if they will work in this set-up: A 'No Pick' List: The idea behind a no-pick list is we come up with a list of roles(mafia favoured roles) and put them on this list. Any player found with one of these roles(via use of power or role-check) is more or less treated as red. Originally this was combined with Bullet-Bill to give him maximum effectiveness. However, this type of plan was always somewhat flawed, and doesn't allow town players to take roles in an effort to deny mafia. Role Denial: Having Town players take heavily pro-mafia favoured roles in an effort to keep them out of mafia hands(recruiting GF/CPR doc etc.). Typically this is achieved by assigning certain slots(top or mid-top) to prioritize and take these roles. By knowing which pick has taken a certain role, this allows us to keep tabs on OP roles like Inventor or in past games, CompVig. This is one of the most important things town can do in my opinion. Even if we organize in no other way, WE HAVE to have several top picks take certain roles as denial. However, the key is figuring out which roles are actually so dangerous as to worry about. Ver's PYP Plan: -top 6-7 picks take the best town roles and defensive roles. -picks 8-11ish take the 'accountable' roles (caller GF, thief, inventor, cpr doc mainly) -rest pick whatever This approach is taken because the mafia cannot guarantee more than 1 member in the top 6+ picks, while they can guarantee any number of members in the middle or bottom picks. This is a good plan, but notice the bolded section. Given that there is a 15 vs 12 ratio in this game, we cannot guarantee by any means that more than a few of the top 6/7 roles will be town aligned. Also, Ver has picks 8-11 taking the 'accountable' roles(role denial) but that works less well in this set-up. If player 8 tries to take a role, only to wind up vanilla, he CANNOT blow the whistle without roleclaiming vanilla, opening him up to both the assassin, and Bloodycobbler roles. Assigning Picks: In PYP2 I tried to organize a system which would land us as many investigative roles as possible by giving everyone a % chance to take a certain investigative/defensive or miscellaneous role. I'm not going to go into detail here, as with only 15/27 players town aligned, this makes a mediocre plan very bad. ________________________________ What are our picking strategy goals? How do they differ from past PYP games? Goals: * Accumulate as many investigative roles as possible into town hands. * Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) * Make a priority list of town roles That's it. No complicated schemes, no major pick assignments or no-pick lists. Mainly townies will be choosing for themselves which role is best. The main way in which this game differs from previous PYP incarnations is that most of the roles are far, far less scary for town. CPR Doc or Comp Vig(or any role which gives 2 or more KP) are normally heinously frightening roles for town to deal with, as they straight up double mafia KP. However, KP roles(in mafia hands) in this set-up have a decent chance of killing off other mafia players(1 in 3 chance of hitting mafia at beginning of game). While these multiple KP roles are still something to worry about, they are no longer game breaking. Second, we no longer need to fear the killer combos that mafia can summon up. Assassin+Role Cop or Capitalist!? Politician + Kingmaker or America!? No longer all that frightening, because mafia have an excellent chance of overlapping their picks. Three teams are all vying for the same power roles and the same combos, which means the chance of Team A getting politician and Team B getting kingmaker fairly decent. At any rate they cannot guarantee them even if we ignore the combos. _______________________________ Accumulate as many investigative powers into town hands. Blues don't win mafia games... analysis does. Don't rely on DT's to do the work. Right...RIGHT? Unfortunately... kinda wrong. In this game we have an inordinate amount of scum to catch. Every townie in this game is looking at 14 town players and 12 mafia..... it's brutal and it's precisely why we need investigative roles. Defensive roles are also important given that we will have at least 3 KP(probably more like 5) per night, for most of the game, but I expect players to mix these in on their own initiative. There are two main reasons we need to prioritize dt type roles this game: First and easiest: Mafia don't want them. Most of the investigative roles in this game are far, far more powerful for town than for mafia. Chances of mafia prioritizing them are low, which means town should have their pick of the litter. If a mafia team uses one of their picks to deny an investigative role to town, this puts them at an immediate disadvantage compared to the other two mafia teams which took all pro-mafia roles. Investigative roles, unlike Defensive or Offensive roles, are much less likely to be taken, and hence give us a greater chance to actually get blue roles. In no way am I suggesting we only try to take Investigative roles and ignore the others, that would be foolish. Instead I'm simply suggesting that we need to make DT-Roles a higher priority than Def or Off roles. Second: Behavior analysis is going to be extremely tough this game. Typically when a player leads lynches against multiple mafia, or shoots a mafia in the face, we can (at least temporarily) cross them off the list of potential mafia. Not so this game. Voting lists, night actions and good reads will not prove a townie. Every mafia player has 8 other players to try to find and kill to buy town-cred. This is great for us as town in a way, but unfortunately makes it extremely difficult to find mafia. This is precisely why any role which can correctly identify mafia is extremely important to us as town. In this game, investigative roles are in many situations going to trump behavior analysis. Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) This is where we need a lot of discussion, and where I am most hazy about the optimum strat. Roles that need to be held accountable: Inventor, Assassin, Thief, RoleSwapper. CPR Doc and Vote Rigger are on the outskirts. JOAT is so good it doesn't necessarily need to be held accountable, but needs to be talked about. Inventor: Absurdly powerful. Basically won the game for town in PYPInsane by giving town a listcheck, and a Police Radio. I have no doubt that this role in mafia hands would be just as deadly. There is absolutely no way to ensure that this role ends up in town hands. None. Therefore, it is essential that we know who has it. All inventions are announced publicly, which means that if that player misuses the role, we can lynch/vig him. Unfortunately this leaves the Inventor wide open to be sniped immediately(1 minute into day 1) by the Assassin. Therefore it is important we know who the assassin is. PICK #1+ Show Spoiler + Inventor should be making list checks, and only list checks. With twelve mafia in this game, the potential for game breaking list checks is off the chart. In a normal game, list checks look like the following, and are extremely overpowered: 2/5 mafia 1/5 mafia 2/7 mafia 3/10 mafia 0/4 mafia etc. However, in this game we have potential for checks that look like this: 4/5 mafia 5/5 mafia 7/9 mafia etc. A single check like that would blow this game out of the water for town. No other potential invention power can do something like this(though Police Radio came close). There do exist a framer and a godfather(who changes both his own and another's alignment) and that could reek some havoc on the listchecks. Also, if the inventor gives his listcheck to a mafia player it spells trouble as well. No matter what we choose though, we should try to decide in advance what invention the inventor should give out, as this gives us the ability to keep tabs on him. Assassin: We need to know who has this role. First off so they can't kill the inventor. More importantly though is that the ability to roleclaim in a PYP set-up is very very important for town. Think of how many town players in PYPInsane roleclaimed: The listcheckDT, bulletproof, modern detective, tracker, role cop, both inventors, multiple vanillas, etc etc. This role directly hampers towns ability to organize and gather information, not to mention that if combined with Capitalist, Role Cop, NKVD or Extractor it becomes extremely powerful for mafia. PICK #2 Thief and Role Swapper : These roles need to be accounted for only because of the fact they can swipe the Inventor or Assassin. If we are committing to keeping tabs on those two roles, then by default we also need to assign the Thief and Role Swapper. PICKS #3 and 4 CPR Doctor: In a normal PYP set-up, this is an essential role to block, as it adds immensely to mafia kill power. However, in this set-up it is much less scary to town. First, there is a chance that any shot will kill mafia instead of town(~33%). Second, there is a chance that the CPR doc will actually SAVE someone. With likely 4 or 5 KP per night the CPR doc will get progressively more likely to start making saves. Combine that with the fact that separate mafia factions will be trying to kill the same strong townies, and the chance for a save climbs even higher. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK Vote Rigger: In most set-ups a vote rigger is extremely powerful in mafia hands. Not this game though. Why not? We have a Pardoner in the set-up. Not only that, but Protactinum has stated the Pardoner has ability to set conditions on his Pardon in the event he is not around. This means the Pardoner can state he will always use his Pardon if a vote rigger's powers are activated. Poof, vote rigger is hard countered before the game has even begun. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK JOAT Very Very strong. Excellent for either mafia or town and as such needs to be a top pick in the hopes it finds a home in town hands. PICK #5 + Show Spoiler + I realize players do not like having their picks dictated, and I realize that part of the fun for people is to get roles they will have fun with. However, with a 15 vs 12 split, we seriously need every town player to be a team player. This plan means that we are allocating the first 5 slots particular roles: 1. Inventor 2. Assassin 3. Thief 4. Role Swapper 5. JOAT Keep in mind however, that the top picks are very likely going to be mafia players. Each mafia team can co-ordiante their picks, therefore they are far more likely to wind up with with a unique number, and hence more likely to be near the top of the list(Which is why JOAT is down at #5). This is both a benifit to us and a detriment. It's good for town because it forces mafia to take the picks we allocate to them or expose themselves if they do not. It's bad for us in that a mafia player can let a role 'slip' down the list for a buddy, and we'll never see it again. However I don't think this is a huge downside, since we get to kill the mafia player who lets it slip. Meaning the mafia have to abandon a player simply to get a strong role(putting them at a disadvantage to the other mafia teams). It's not ideal for town, but it's better than the alternative.+ Show Spoiler + Let's assume that Incogito has the first pick, and that town has assigned him to take Inventor. However, he takes a different role instead, and lets Inventor slip to the #7 slot, where his mafia buddy Qatol is waiting and picks it up. If at any point in the game it becomes obvious that the inventor is mafia, we simply lynch Incognito. This doesn't kill the inventor, but it at least kills a mafioso. Remember that the alternative to the assigned picks is having no idea where the Inventor is to start with. This means that if anti-town inventions start showing up we don't even get a confirmed mafia out of the deal. Make a priority list of town roles As I see it, these are the strongest roles for town, in relative order, and by category: Investigative: 5Jack 5Inventor 5Detective 5NKVD 4Parity Cop 4Capitalist 4Bullet Bill 3Role Cop Watcher- NO Tracker - NO Defensive 4Medic 4Rock Star 4Witch 3Jailkeeper 3Bulletproof 3Doctor 3Meth Man 3Veteran Martyr - NO Hider- NO Hero - NO NRA Member - NO(unless you want to claim it night 1) KP 4Vigilante 4Dreamflower 3.5Day Vig 3.5America 3.5King Maker 3Mad Hatter 3Bad Santa 3BC 3Ace Other Qatol Copy Cat The rest is basically non-optimal roles. This gives us a townie pick list that contains these roles. If you want to pick something else, that's fine, but I see these roles as the best roles for town(In very rough order): Jack Inventor Detective NKVD Parity Cop Doctor Rock Star Vigilante Dreamflower Capitalist Medic Witch Day Vig Bullet Bill America King Maker Jailkeeper Bulletproof Bad Santa BC Ace Qatol Role Cop Meth Man Veteran Mad Hatter Copy Cat This gives approximately 25 roles for the 15 town-aligned players. The rest of the roles are not really worth taking for townies. The further down on the pick-list you are, the further down this role list you would pick, always keeping an eye towards the investigative roles though(which are a bit too clumped towards the top for this strat). This presumably gives us a fairly decent chance of getting as many quality blues as possible. _____________________ What does this plan do, and what does it not do? *Assigns the top 5 players roles which are dangerous, and are essential for town to know their whereabouts. *Gives town a general priority list for making picks, hopefully minimizing overlap and maximizing investigative roles. * Does not attempt to block all strong mafia picks, instead allowing mafia to cockblock themselves and get more vanilla players, putting them at a disadvantage to town Have a problem with the plan? Great! Lets talk about it. Don't pop in and snipe 1 little problem though. This is something that needs to be sorted out, and needs to be sorted out before the pick list is revealed. Input is needed. ------------------- Some notes on various roles: Janitor: Not in the least bit frightening. We already learn way less from a flip since mafia will be attacking mafia all over the place. Losing 1 flip is nothing to be afraid of. With an investigative role heavy line-up, town is strongest at night anyways. Showtime! and Vote Rigger:Completely nullified by any competent pardoner. Neither of their abilities should ever go unpardoned. Doctor: Excellent in this set-up as you are either normal, jailkeeper, or weak... And you are told if you are weak! A weak doctor can act as another investigative role. This doesn't work if you don't know your sanity, but in this case you do. Step 1, telegraph your protections "I think blank should be protected tonight", Step 2, you either die and get flipped as a weak doctor(implicating your breadcrumb), or you live and have a confirmed townie. Simply a fantastic role. NRA Member If you take this role as a townie, you absolutely have to claim it day/night 1. The chances of tearing our blues apart are way too high. By claiming you do not even open yourself up to hits, as you cannot be roleblocked. This role should be treated as a buffed up BP Vest. Politician Kinda scary, as there is a decent chance the mafia can team up a kingmaker/america with the politician. However, this means they are using two of their powers for 1 extra KP. I'm not sure how scary that really is considering the other potential powers. Not to mention they run the risk of overlapping with other mafia teams, and making themselves vulnerable to role checks once they activate their powers for evil. Bomber Man Somewhat scary, but fairly likely to hit other mafia members, and fairly likely to explode prematurely and not do maximum damage. Not all that potent in this set-up. Cupid Useful for mafia only to kill a strong defensive role. Other than that it only adds a single KP. Vigilante With two shots, this is probably one of town's best offensive weapons. Dreamflower Pointless for mafia to take, so players at the bottom of the list should think of taking this role(no need to take it high). Again, telegraphing here is important(but be subtle) as your death can confirm an innocent. Roleclaiming and asking for medic protection is possibly worthwhile in this situation. Assigning roles to numbers is a decent plan, and for a few roles (eg. inventor), it sounds great. I see two problems. First and foremost, the situation where a role doesn't actually get chosen occuring, giving the mafia a role they can potentially safe claim throughout the game because no-one else should have it to counter claim. This seems like a problem more for people with very mafia friendly roles like GF. (The perfect example.) The other problem I forsee is with mafia knowing everybodys role. Medics can only protect so many people each night, and mafia know their targets in advance. I suggest two workarounds. 1) That if this goes through we work out which roles we can easily keep accountable first. (eg. the inventor has to invent something town friendly, america has to declare it's targets in the thread, anything we can check their actually doing what they say they are fits here) 2) We don't apply this rule to everybody. I don't know how to work this one, but essentially we cant let the mafia know who all of us are without being sure we know all of them. Since we can't do the latter, it seems like giving them complete information shouldn't be done. Remember that the mafia can coordinate their picks, so it's more likely that they will rank high on the list. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:49 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Assigning roles to numbers is a decent plan, and for a few roles (eg. inventor), it sounds great. I see two problems. First and foremost, the situation where a role doesn't actually get chosen occuring, giving the mafia a role they can potentially safe claim throughout the game because no-one else should have it to counter claim. This seems like a problem more for people with very mafia friendly roles like GF. (The perfect example.) The other problem I forsee is with mafia knowing everybodys role. Medics can only protect so many people each night, and mafia know their targets in advance. I suggest two workarounds. 1) That if this goes through we work out which roles we can easily keep accountable first. (eg. the inventor has to invent something town friendly, america has to declare it's targets in the thread, anything we can check their actually doing what they say they are fits here) 2) We don't apply this rule to everybody. I don't know how to work this one, but essentially we cant let the mafia know who all of us are without being sure we know all of them. Since we can't do the latter, it seems like giving them complete information shouldn't be done. Remember that the mafia can coordinate their picks, so it's more likely that they will rank high on the list. I'm really not sure what you mean. If a role doesn't get chosen how do mafia get a safe-claim? Not to mention that there is no such thing as a safe claim anyways since role is not an indicator of alignment. How will mafia know everybody's role? We're only talking about assigning 5 picks(4 if we drop the JOAT) which means mafia only know 4 players role, and no one elses. The rest of the picks are all up to the discretion of the individual. It's possible i'm just not understanding you, but it's possible you need to re-read my post. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 12:28 JimboSilvers wrote: Since it is going to come up, I'll say this now. Almost half the player-base is Mafia. This makes denying powerful mafia roles nearly impossible, and not cost effective. The best course for the role picking phase will be for us to focus on getting good town roles, and letting the various mafia parties fight among themselves for the good mafia roles. (Denying each other good combos in the process) On that note, I want to know if you guys think it's a good idea to make a coordinated list of powerful town roles, or a bad idea. The obvious upside is that if we coordinate our picks then we have a higher chance of getting more roles, but at the cost of letting every mafia knowing the general location of certain power roles. I for one am against this sort of ordering. It's called Pick YOUR power, Not Pick THEIR Power. I'll pick my own role, thank you. I understand this sentiment, but I strongly disagree with it if taken to the extreme. Particularly, what do you think of the idea of having the top 4/5 picks be allocated, with the other 23 players able to use their discretion? It allows us to keep tabs on several roles, minimizing their potential damage to town. Thoughts? Also, I thought you were the flame/Ver/Incog smurf.... but those three are our hosts so.... | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 12 2011 20:01 Radfield wrote: I'm really not sure what you mean. If a role doesn't get chosen how do mafia get a safe-claim? Not to mention that there is no such thing as a safe claim anyways since role is not an indicator of alignment. How will mafia know everybody's role? We're only talking about assigning 5 picks(4 if we drop the JOAT) which means mafia only know 4 players role, and no one elses. The rest of the picks are all up to the discretion of the individual. It's possible i'm just not understanding you, but it's possible you need to re-read my post. Oh, I mistook it for the whole list, I did read it though. My second point doesn't apply. As long as the assigned roles are very easily accountable, it seems like a good plan. For instance, it doesn't seem very easy to keep the JOAT accountable. I suggest Kingmaker as #5. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 12 2011 20:01 Radfield wrote: I'm really not sure what you mean. If a role doesn't get chosen how do mafia get a safe-claim? Not to mention that there is no such thing as a safe claim anyways since role is not an indicator of alignment. How will mafia know everybody's role? We're only talking about assigning 5 picks(4 if we drop the JOAT) which means mafia only know 4 players role, and no one elses. The rest of the picks are all up to the discretion of the individual. It's possible i'm just not understanding you, but it's possible you need to re-read my post. As for the 'safe' claim part: Imagine a mafia is assigned to be thief. Suddenly, they have no incentive to choose thief, and they know no-one below them can pick thief for fear of being vanilla. They now have a role they can claim throughout the game while secretly using any other role they feel like. And that's assuming that we can hold thief/role-swapper accountable. If we don't predetermine every bodies roles, it only protects the other pre-determined accountable roles from being swapped. Situation: Thief is town, Assassin is mafia. Assassin claims to have it's ability stolen while previously using it pro-town (On the other factions.) In a later game scenario, it might be important that the town keeps everybody alive it can, and can't afford to kill the thief incorrectly before realising the assassin lied after the thief is lynched. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 20:29 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As for the 'safe' claim part: Imagine a mafia is assigned to be thief. Suddenly, they have no incentive to choose thief, and they know no-one below them can pick thief for fear of being vanilla. They now have a role they can claim throughout the game while secretly using any other role they feel like. And that's assuming that we can hold thief/role-swapper accountable. If we don't predetermine every bodies roles, it only protects the other pre-determined accountable roles from being swapped. Situation: Thief is town, Assassin is mafia. Assassin claims to have it's ability stolen while previously using it pro-town (On the other factions.) In a later game scenario, it might be important that the town keeps everybody alive it can, and can't afford to kill the thief incorrectly before realising the assassin lied after the thief is lynched. Scenario 1 is perfectly acceptable. The point of the pick assignments is to keep the Inventor and Assassin as known quantities. If the thief wants to steal someone else's role, so be it, at the very least everyone will know where the thief is. Situation 2 is also acceptable, and certainly better than the alternative, which is not having any idea at all where those important roles are. Also, JOAT is not there so it can be held accountable, It's mainly assigned a spot so we don't have 5 different townies trying to grab the role. Also, it doesn't allow one of the top 4 spots to let their pick slide, and instead take the JOAT(the most powerful role in the game after Inventor). Kingmaker is already held accountable by virtue of the publicness of the power. Not to mention, assigning Kingmaker to a slot would allow outrageously easy politician snipes. On October 12 2011 20:32 deconduo wrote: Assigning picks has had reasonable success in other PYP games, however this game will be different. The high number of mafia and them being split into factions means that if we assign the top 5 roles they will almost certainly be killed off pretty quickly. Regardless of who gets Inventor, Assassin etc, there will be at least 2 mafia factions looking to kill them off. If there are a lot of mafia in the the top 5 this works out in our favour, but otherwise it just means that powerful townies die at the start. Something worth thinking about at least. Having the top 5 roles be killed off quickly is fine. The other option is to have no idea where Inventor and Assassin are, and that is most likely a worse situation for town. Keep in mind that with the ability to co-ordinate their picks, mafia are more likely to end up in the top few slots than townies. This means that any snipe attempts into the top of the list will likely result in dead mafia. Also, if we need to keep the Inventor around we can, as we will likely have multiple protection roles(or at least the threat of multiple protection roles). | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
You have the power to change how one's alignment and role appears to any detective type actions performed on them that night. You may use it on one person per night and may not use it on yourself. In addition, you may also choose to have your framed target visit anyone you choose. Any actions they perform will also be misdirected. Your target will also show up to watcher and tracker reports. At first glance it allows the framer to completely control actions of any single player every night. It will not only frame the target, but also makes any active abilities useless and potentially dangerous. For instance if there is a NRA and the NRA claims day 1, the framer can just keep redirecting blues to the NRA. It further discourages role claiming and if the framer is lucky enough to find a role with a powerful active ability early on, it could definitely rank among the most dangerous scum roles in the game, especially due to its flexibility. It seems to me that if we go on the road of denying roles, framer is up there with Thief. Is the target of framer's redirection ability informed of the redirection? If inventor is redirected, does it mean the new target receives the invention? | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Do mafia have to assign who performs the killl?] | ||
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