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Newbie Mini Mafia LII - Page 11
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
Additionally, I'm fairly certain that Cavalinho was the first to ping me as suspicious Additionally, while my first post may not have contributed anything of value, my second posts and subsequent posts did. | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
On February 18 2014 05:01 IAmRobik wrote: Why? They were useless. Any discussion of game mechanics is filler. It gives the illusion of providing content without actually doing it. People think "wow, this guy is talking about the game and trying to figure out what the setup is so that he can figure out the game" when in fact, it's just speculating on something that no one really needs to worry about at this point in order to look like you are contributing, instead of providing reads. You FINALLY provided some reads after 10 posts. Additionally, I'm fairly certain that Cavalinho was the first to ping me as suspicious Additionally, while my first post may not have contributed anything of value, my second posts and subsequent posts did. 6 or 7 posts if you're counting my comment on lynching policy, but I get your point. If you want to read them that way, okay, but as I've said before they were genuine questions, not meant for massive discussion points. | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
Looking through your filter, I apologise. I pretty much ignored most of the first hour or two of random votes that lead nowhere. The 'first two' posts that i've been referring to are the On February 17 2014 05:25 IAmRobik wrote: OnceKing, That's one hell of an argument for a newbie game. what's your experience? and On February 17 2014 06:19 IAmRobik wrote: Let's not talk about roles There are maximum 3 maf Not quite sure how I overlooked that. | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
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IAmRobik
United States5878 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
OnceKing’s comments on Lord Tolkien (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20816932) Although I’ve indicated I dislike Tolkien’s post earlier, I felt yesterday that I wished for more to go on. OnceKing’s points made me take another look at him. It’s tough. I agree with most of OnceKing’s points on Lord Tolkien, but disagree with a few: (1) I still think experience is a useful metric. Though, I grant that I haven’t found much use for it yet in this game. (2) I don’t understand why commenting on the game setup is something scummy/towny. OnceKing mentions it with a (meh) so I’m not sure which way he leans on the issue. I see this as neutral, I think - we can only guess at which town and mafia roles are in the game, but I think it’s at least educated guessing. (3) I don’t put much into his highlighting the “(newbie)” comment made by Tolkien. I also see this as neutral. Re-evaluating Lord Tolkien OnceKing did make me look into Lord Tolkien more in this post. I do have at least one thing to add: In this post, Tolkien says he won’t speculate on night actions. On February 17 2014 14:38 Lord Tolkien wrote: I'm not going to speculate on night actions at this point of time yet, as there are too many variables to account for outside of a mafia kill. But, this earlier post is doing just that: On February 17 2014 08:45 Lord Tolkien wrote: Just thought of something. The other option is if Amiko flips green or blue, and two of the (currently) three people advocating the lynch are red. Mafia will probably kill the non-red active player at night, and from what it currently stands, the two can lead the town into a self-lynching orgy. Also possible. I'm leaning towards there being 2 mafia, but it's also possible that there's 3 (highly unlikely I think given only 9 players, but possible?). We'll see. I see this as somewhat scummy because it is inconsistent – why will he comment on night actions in one post but not another? On February 17 2014 16:03 Lord Tolkien wrote: How about this: if you guys do and I turn up green or blue, you guys lynch OnceKing? Because I'm now pretty sure you're scum after this post, and a town for a mafia is a pretty sure trade. I get the point he is making here, but I don’t really like this play. As someone who was just accused a lot, it never occurred to me to offer myself as today’s lynch in exchange for killing someone else tomorrow. So, I see this as a strange statement. Frankly, neither of these posts are damning. I see them as unusual plays, but I know I’m still feeling my own playstyle out. I want to reread IAmRobik and Valenius’ more recent posts, but these comments make me like lynching Tolkien as an alternative to Cavalinho would be acceptable though not ideal. OnceKing’s Rescind on Me I wish I had more to say on this. If OnceKing is mafia, he does have a little to gain by unvoting me because I have said (and at least for now, will continue to say) that I read him as town. So, it is possible that he is pocketing me as someone who trusts him. If he’s mafia, this also gives him some credibility, because if I were voted off I would flip town, and some players might question him as the person who led the initial lynch on me. Right now I do not think OnceKing is mafia, but I think it is important to analyze what he gains or loses. Beneather (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817073) The above post is all I think I can use for analysis. There’s not much to say, but here goes- I don’t like that he opens by saying he doesn’t think Tolkien is scum, but the remainder of the post seems to argue (or suggest, since it doesn’t come down very hard) that he finds Tolkien scummy. He points to the troubling Tolkien post and mentions he does not understand why Tolkien thinks I am scummy. I don’t have much to say about his scenario where I live and Tolkein is shot/potentially a veteran. I see this post as more noncommittal than scummy. I at least want to see Beneather commit more. Beneather, if you don’t think Tolkien is scum, is there anything you see as weighing against him as town? Beneather, what comments do you think are scummiest in the game so far? Your comments at the end of your post seem to suggest you want to leave me and Tolkein alive – who would you lynch? Cavalinho’s Response to OnceKing (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817116) I don’t think we waste time by attacking each other. We are giving town things to talk about and analysis they can agree or disagree with. At the least, we have given town reads and interactions between ourselves and the rest of town that they can use. I hope that my activity will help everyone see me as town, but (as I said earlier) I think the best thing that’s come from the attacks on me is that town is starting to actively analyze things. ------ I need to re-read the posts by Valenius and IAmRobik, I’ll try to post some comments on those next. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 17 2014 14:06 Cavalinho wrote: I think it's ridiculous that I'm getting looked at as possible mafia because I agree with someone else's analysis. (For the record, I agree with all of what you said about it. Just in case this comes up again.) To explain my reasoning on Cavalinho a little better, this is the kind of direct post I was looking for earlier. As I am looking at everyone in this thread, I want people to tell me what they agree or do not agree with. I don't see the post as important. But I wanted to at least try to clarify to Cavalinho why I think most of us found his followup vote so scummy in case he is town. | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
To explain my reasoning on Cavalinho a little better, this is the kind of direct post I was looking for earlier. As I am looking at everyone in this thread, I want people to tell me what they agree or do not agree with. I don't see the post as important. But I wanted to at least try to clarify to Cavalinho why I think most of us found his followup vote so scummy in case he is town. You aren't even saying anything in this post. You say it's direct and that it matters, and then you're saying it doesn't matter. Explain your scumread. Do it now. Stop beating around the bush and looking for things you can twist. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I wanted to include a little comment on him since recent posts have given more to analyze. I think theDragoon makes good points when discussing Tolkien. I didn’t think of it earlier, but I like the questions he asked Tolkien, specifically where he questions (1) why Tolkien suggests he stuck his neck out and (2) questions him on OnceKing moving his vote from me (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20817275). I’ll talk more about Robik below, but I felt theDragoon’s post here was the exact right town response – Robik is taking some positions, but they seem off to me and there’s insufficient explanation. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20819793). I would have liked to see theDragoon respond more as to what he agrees or disagrees with in Robik’s post, but it’s a start. Based on this I’m seeing theDragoon as slightly town. IAmRobik I like his posts even though we reached different conclusions. It seems to me IAmRobik has provides explanations for his actions when asked when questioned by me and OnceKing, and I’m glad he picked up in activity over the past few hours. I commented on this post earlier, but I want to clarify one thing- On February 17 2014 05:25 IAmRobik wrote: OnceKing, That's one hell of an argument for a newbie game. what's your experience? This post got raised a few times. I just wanted to say again, I think it is too ambiguous to use one way or another. It could mean IAmRobik is impressed with OnceKing’s argument – as in, “that’s a hell of an argument, I’m impressed, have you done this before.” Or it could mean it as a defense of me – as in, “that argument seems too good to come from a new player.” I didn’t read the post strongly one way or the other, and I think his answer makes sense. I read him as more townsided at this time. I disagree with his read on Cavalinho. Valenius I read his filter but I really don’t come away with anything I think is helpful to highlight and have to get back to work. I’ll try to take another look tonight if I'm not occupied with Cavalinho. -- Cavalinho: I just saw your last post, I'll put a quick post in response in a few minutes | ||
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
I'm heading to bed. I'm leaving my vote on Robik, if only because I don't have enough of a read to switch it with what's been said since. I don't think he'll be lynched tonight either way. Good luck for the next few hours, and I look forward to reading the outcomes in the morning. o/ | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On February 18 2014 06:38 Cavalinho wrote: Except nobody found it scummy except for two people. Almost every single other player in the game has a townread on me. Stop talking as if everyone shares the same views that you do, because they obviously don't. You aren't even saying anything in this post. You say it's direct and that it matters, and then you're saying it doesn't matter. Explain your scumread. Do it now. Stop beating around the bush and looking for things you can twist. I have to work for a few hours, but if you want to go back and forth more I can try to go over it 3-4 hours from now. Here's the best summary I can provide for you. In exchange, I would appreciate if you provide comments on my two above posts. Tell us what you agree with and what you don't agree with. That's what you need to do to to help town. The post I made noted that you (finally) provided at least some direct explanation of your vote for me because you explained you agreed with OnceKing. If it helps, the bolded statement above is a concise explanation of why I scumread you. It is in mafia's interest to encourage voting for a town player. However, they don't want to stand out or draw attention. If they succeed, the player will flip town and people will question their logic because there is proof they were wrong. In my view, this game moved from mostly meaningless day 1 voting to a game when OnceKing voted for me. He provided reasons for his vote that made it carry actual weight. In doing so, he started a vote on a town player. Your post bandwagoned him without any meaningful commitment. I think it could be summarized as "me too" - when I flip town, you didn't provide anything that would incriminate yourself. Your post leaves you a lot of room: you can later say you weren't sure, or you agreed with OnceKing regarding discussing experience, but not about post length, or whatever suits your fancy. In addition, you pretend that you had the idea beforehand, which I see as an attempt to align yourself with OnceKing without offering anything yourself. You then make a very similar move where you indicate you were rethinking voting for me. Again, it doesn't offer anything except seeming to align yourself with a player without committing. If you thought through a player, you should be providing your reasoning (just as you are asking of me). You also have indicated a few times that you want to scumhunt. But, I don't see you actively pressuring anyone. I also dislike like that you read IAmRobik's comment as defending me when I read it as ambiguous/weird. I wrote this hastily, so I'm sorry for points I missed or did not address adequately. If you want to understand my reasons for suspecting you, you'll find them better explained by reading my filter. Your section is in bold, and I think it's longer than everyone else's I'll finish with this thought - I don't really think you and I are getting anywhere with this discussion and I'd rather spend time looking at other people. I'd like to see you lynched, but a lot of town doesn't - hopefully I can convince them that you are town in the coming days, or maybe you can convince me you are town with your play. To do that, please provide analysis, scumhunt, and when you vote make sure it's clear why. | ||
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OnceKing
United States939 Posts
Amiko -- should Cavalinho (who is currently set to be lynched) flip green, who would your next suspect be? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
1) Cavalinho 2) Lord Tolkien 3) maybe n1k0, maybe IAmRobik, maybe Valenius. Not sure. | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
In case you haven't noticed, I'm actually trying very hard to focus on other things. But you ignore the shit that I've said before in regards to what OnceKing said. You can go ahead and look for it, because I'm not wasting my time explaining anything to you anymore. You are literally turning this into "you or me," and if we're both town, then everyone else is just sitting and watching while you try to reason something out of nothing. I see absolutely no reason to let you live. You deliberately misread everything and your logic makes no sense. You're either shit town or mafia trying to save yourself. But it's not like it actually matters what I'm saying here. I could say "smelly dick poop butt" and you would still think I'm mafia. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Sorry out of time, I'll respond to cavalinho later since I have to go, expect me in a few hours | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
But you're just going to overlook that too just to push your agenda. | ||
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Cavalinho
United States946 Posts
##unvote Amiko ##vote N1k0 This is my actual scumread right now. Amiko is trying to make good posts, but I think he's an idiot and he's barking up the wrong tree. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
Regarding Myself 1) Why on Earth would I make such an a fairly noticeable lynch vote on Amiko if I was mafia? If I were mafia and he were town, I could just soft-defend him given his town read on me and reap the credibility it would give me, instead of taking all this damn scrutiny. There's no benefit for me to try and make a lynch vote that early; instead I could switch reluctantly later or continue a basically null vote, and not be under scrutiny at all. No gain. If he were scum and I were scum, similarly, why would I throw him under the bus in that manner? Unless to separate our allegiances if we flipped, but that's...still kinda a bad play, unless there's 3 mafia and you can afford it (or I am confident enough as a mafia player to run with it for the rest of the game). I doubt Amiko would agree to it if that's the case, though. If he was mafia and I was town, then all very well and good, and if we were both town, then it would've been unfortunate, but as I said it was a vote I was willing to take to determine how Cavalinho and OnceKing fell. I think we're all tired of this topic however, so I won't bring it up anymore. @ Amiko: Regarding the non-speculation of night action; the post you cited was in response to Cavalinho's and to point out a hole in his analysis (which there have been a few thus far). I previously listed what the possible courses of actions might be depending on how mafia read me, but I have no idea how they will actually read me, so I'm not going to commit to saying I will eat a roleblock, or a shot, or blue shenanigans, just the possible actions they might take. I was giving the possible motives and reasons why I would mention the veteran being possibly among me when people were questioning me), Cavalinho, and OnceKing, and the dearth of other blues. @ IAmRobrik: On February 18 2014 01:06 IAmRobik wrote: Up to this point, Valenius has done nothing but post random, uninteresting stuff and talk about game setup. Talking about game setup is an easy way for scum to look active without providing any content. Rereading his filter, you do raise some valid points. I still don't see why commenting on roles is a bad thing for town (mafia will be doing it anyways in their QT), but his comments, when pressed for reads on myself, Amiko, and Cavalinho, were skimpy and "safe". Nothing that wasn't already pointed out before by everyone else prior, and he was fairly non-antagonistic about it. It is a good avenue to explore and a read to pursue. I disagree with you on Day 1 lurker lynching (it gives us nothing on Day 2 if there's a green flip), but that's irrelevant now. On February 18 2014 05:01 IAmRobik wrote: Additionally, I'm fairly certain that Cavalinho was the first to ping me as suspicious He was. @ Beneather: Can you put forward your analysis now? I do hope you understand why I was willing to vote for Amiko after last night's series of posts, but you haven't contributed your reads and analysis yet. Current reads: Valenius has largely been unhelpful Day 1, and has put out a nonsense vote. This either indicates he's still unsure (given our gamestate, entirely possible) and unwilling to commit, or is biding his time until later stages of the game. He reads, to me. It depends how he plays in Day 2. Beneather falls under this category too; I would put them under close scrutiny Day 2. theDragoon is most probably town. The he was properly critical of a number of my errors, and was willing to ask for clarification, though his filter is very skimpy. Still, his posts have been useful contributions despite the dearth of them (thus far). N1k0, I heavily disagree with his reasoning about Amiko being possible red. His first post wasn't much of an attempt to drive discussion, and he isn't playing very "godfathery" to me since. It was an introduction (unnecessary info about him self), a comment about my question about the lack of innocent child modpost, and raising a lurker lynch issue. It was abit scummy, and the best we had to go for at the time, but currently it doesn't sound like mafia talk. If you're going to vote for Cavalinho, I would like you to expand on your reasoning for him some more. At best either a weak town read or weak scum read. Additionally, I agree; Cavalinho and OnceKing can't both be red. Unsure about IAmRobrik. He doesn't, currently, read strongly either way to me. I'd like more analysis as to why you order people the way you did. My current strongest town read is currently Amiko, despite my earlier vote. He has, thus far, given clear answers, and given clear reasoning behind it, and they've been fairly strong thus far. I am suspicious of Cavalinho; as I noted, his analysis has holes in it at times, some of which were "best case" red scenarios. Additional to that, his push on IAmRobrik at the time still strikes me as odd: it was at the time characteristics of a lurker, not a scum. As I stated earlier, neither of his Robrik's initial posts pointed towards him being scummy; the first post about experience is non-committal, and something I would discard largely. He's also probably red, given his attempts to deflect. If he flips green, well fk. That makes double-lynching me and OnceKing far too risky. I remain highly critical of OnceKing (and I will continue in my apparently lone dissent about it). My reasoning in previous posts stands, and if he is red, he's godfather (as I'm currently pretty certain OnceKing is, and that's my take on him). I will retain my vote on him to note my read, unless something crazy, like a lynch on someone who isn't cal or me (or OnceKing, but no one is apparently going to agree to it until I turn up dead and town), is put forward and about to go through. There are no other good Day 1 lynch targets currently, and we are the clear options at this point. I repeat my request that OnceKing be lynched when I turn up town on a lynch, however. | ||
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