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On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
The thing is denying mafia roles doesn't work too well anyways, and on top of that, if you try to coordinate it, it works even less.
The rolecop-rolevig combo alone has 2-3 possibilities on either end of the deal. (rolecop, capitalist, extractor & assassin, rolevig)
Sure, you might be a hero and get exactly the one they try to pick, but it's a crapshoot, and mafia inherently has the pickorder advantage due to possible coordination.
Rather, think about it like this: certain roles are not desireable for mafia to pick. Those roles, you don't pick early in the draft order. This includes all investigative roles (apart from rolecop), dreamflower, things like that. Not picking those in, say, the upper half, will mean more roles for town overall.
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way.
Damn I forgot who you are. Who are you?
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On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way.
Im trying to read between the lines here:
Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick?
That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play?
If so,
I think this is a brilliant idea.
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On April 04 2013 21:00 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Im trying to read between the lines here: Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick? That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play? If so, I think this is a brilliant idea.
Yes, that is what I am advocating.
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On April 04 2013 21:00 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Im trying to read between the lines here: Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick? That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play? If so, I think this is a brilliant idea.
Depending on circumstances. I don't think this is a good idea at all if you are meaning forced VT's should claim when D1 starts.
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On April 04 2013 21:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:00 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Im trying to read between the lines here: Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick? That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play? If so, I think this is a brilliant idea. Depending on circumstances. I don't think this is a good idea at all if you are meaning forced VT's should claim when D1 starts.
They should if it's a 'dangerous' role.
Obviously, nobody cares if the last pick doesn't get Parity Cop..
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On April 04 2013 21:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:00 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Im trying to read between the lines here: Are you advocating that, "Forced" VTs claim their intended role pick? That way, if we trust the source, we know that the role is in play? If so, I think this is a brilliant idea. Depending on circumstances. I don't think this is a good idea at all if you are meaning forced VT's should claim when D1 starts.
I am happy to here more from you regarding this.
The thing is, you can claim an *Attempt* on any role and thus become VT - and not a single person other than the hosts can dispute it.
The VT claim is not to separate people into a confirmed town/confirmed scum situation.
In my opinion, it is to set up people for whether they are lying or not; and for strong town reads that are VTs, perhaps identify roles in play.
For those lying/caught lying: it is then up to town to decide whether they are lying to protect their blue role; or lying because they are scum.
In short, we still need to scum hunt effectively.
This just becomes a tool we may be able to use to our advantage in the future.
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these plans are all stupid. 'tis the equivalent of a mass roleclaim in a regular game. it don't work.
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On April 04 2013 19:58 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:33 strongandbig wrote:
Afaik pyp games are often determined by "this bullshit". The picking phase strategy is a big part of the game.
And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful.
Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. K right. So we could just assign roles to all the people. And if they dont picked the assigned role, we kill them, and if they use their role in a way that benefits scum we kill them. And this will totally break the game as PYP, no?
why dont we do this?
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How do you determine what is "dangerous" role and what is not? There is a large amount of roles that are dangerous in a way or another. I agree that there are many roles that are dangerous by themselves, but it's not like early picks who are town should just deny "dangerous" mafia roles by picking prince of darkness/janitor/admiral ackbar and then never use it. Because they are then essentially vanilla and that's far worse than them having a role that actually helps town.
And whoever suggested that America is a dangerous role, that's just stupid. Like all the other KP roles are far more dangerous in mafia's hands.
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The problem with that is trusting the source. If someone we don't trust claims they tried to pick Russia and failed, how reliable is that? Not very much, but you can guarantee it eats up part of town's day analyzing the claim. I don't want to encourage this, as even well-intentioned claims could have unintended consequences that are anti-town.
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
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what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us.
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On April 04 2013 21:15 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 19:33 strongandbig wrote:
Afaik pyp games are often determined by "this bullshit". The picking phase strategy is a big part of the game.
And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful.
Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. K right. So we could just assign roles to all the people. And if they dont picked the assigned role, we kill them, and if they use their role in a way that benefits scum we kill them. And this will totally break the game as PYP, no? why dont we do this?
And how to plan to confirm ppl chose a role or not?
I just like the idea of KISS, figure it out when you drafted based on order.
I have 3 roles im interested in more than others; i assume everyone else is in similar situation
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On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us.
Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying.
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On April 04 2013 21:15 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 19:33 strongandbig wrote:
Afaik pyp games are often determined by "this bullshit". The picking phase strategy is a big part of the game.
And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful.
Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. K right. So we could just assign roles to all the people. And if they dont picked the assigned role, we kill them, and if they use their role in a way that benefits scum we kill them. And this will totally break the game as PYP, no? why dont we do this?
uz an stinkeh grot is wot it is, how do we prove they picked the assigned role, and mo' impotantly uz just givin mafia all the roles in orda', clean as u please. bloody good job is what it is.
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On April 04 2013 21:17 yamato77 wrote:
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
Blatant +1 here
Very wise words from Yamato here.
Let me repeat.
On April 04 2013 21:17 yamato77 wrote:
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
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11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 21:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:
How do you determine what is "dangerous" role and what is not? There is a large amount of roles that are dangerous in a way or another. I agree that there are many roles that are dangerous by themselves, but it's not like early picks who are town should just deny "dangerous" mafia roles by picking prince of darkness/janitor/admiral ackbar and then never use it. Because they are then essentially vanilla and that's far worse than them having a role that actually helps town.
And whoever suggested that America is a dangerous role, that's just stupid. Like all the other KP roles are far more dangerous in mafia's hands.
I've specifically argued against this notion, so if you want to claim that this is the case, you're going to have to try harder than that. Why is denying mafia a role like janitor or admiral ackbar (which significantly impedes town) worse than getting a role that might only help the one player, or might be situational enough to not matter at all?
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On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206
As I mentioned prior.
So far, I disagree.
i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game.
To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly.
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Caller, you're going to have to argue in specific against my plan if you want to gain any traction here. How is a FEW players from town stealing the WORST mafia roles at all bad for town? We just have to be good town hunters. That shouldn't be too difficult, no?
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On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying.
I have no idea how you got from "VTs should share their inherent information" to "we lynch a lot of good town roles if they do that!"
How about you walk me through that thought process.
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On April 04 2013 21:22 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:17 Caller wrote:
what i mean by it tis simple: any vt's claim their intended role, some mafia claim another role that may or may not exist. or maybe they claim a role a higher mafia picked, or they share a pick with a vt. who knows. all that does is give mafia a list of roles in the game, and it does zog all for us. Absolutely correct. You have no way of telling who is telling the truth and you might end up lynching a lot of good town roles just to figure out who is lying. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=11#206As I mentioned prior. So far, I disagree. i think this provides us a tool with which to facilitate scum hunting at some point in the game. To use the claimed VT information to confirm people is ridiculous. - If that is your fixation, then I can see your point of view clearly.
yuz a bloody scum iz wot it iz, 'tis line of reasoning iz a classic scum trick of backing off any points and just tryin' tah win an argument, all inna name of pro-town biznes. Well oi ain't up fo that. Oi got mai oi on you boy.
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EPT
