|
On April 04 2013 13:14 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have?
"Janitor"
Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once.
My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed.
|
On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads.
Lettuce ask a very simple question here. How does one assign a role to a player who could conceivably pick at any spot?
|
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:15 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:08 yamato77 wrote:
I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL. I just came out of "The Game" so you will have to excuse me if we differ with opinion on this matter. For me personally regardless of player list Early Game: I put the trust in myself to either blend in as scum; or stand out as a contributor as town. Regardless, I am not relying on "town" to act "town". As I said before, if you want to follow this path. Fine. But right now, I have no means to knowing what you or sharrant or any other plan pushers alignment is. And hence, as I said before, I choose not to participate. Why?The stuff you are speaking of, is essentially common sense pro-town stuff that could be endorsed by town or scum. I am not going to comment further on this. Best of luck with what ever path you intend to choose pre-draft.
One last thing, because while you are being unnecessarily negative, I do not want you to simply dismiss this idea because you don't think town can act town.
My alignment does not influence my plan, necessarily. You admit that it is "pro-town", which is correct. That's all that matters. I am not espousing the idea that I be chosen, necessarily, I am simply trying to formulate a way to use the setup to town's advantage, which I believe to have done. While it may only be a LIMITED advantage, admittedly, any advantage is better than none.
|
On April 04 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:14 Sharrant wrote:On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have? "Janitor" Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once.
My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed.
You're interpretation is wrong (at least with how Janitors normally work). The red part that you quoted means that none of the following Day's flips (aka the night kills) will be revealed AT ALL. Never.
|
On April 04 2013 13:19 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:14 Sharrant wrote:On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have? "Janitor" Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once.
My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed. You're interpretation is wrong (at least with how Janitors normally work). The red part that you quoted means that none of the following Day's flips (aka the night kills) will be revealed AT ALL. Never. Shooting off to lunch.
But if that is the case than yes. I think its a good idea to remove from the scum power list.
|
On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have.
|
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:19 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads. Lettuce ask a very simple question here. How does one assign a role to a player who could conceivably pick at any spot?
On April 04 2013 13:17 Keirathi wrote:
Serious question for you, yamato:
What if the 1-2 people you have "solid town reads" on by tomorrow when the picking phase starts are #22 and #23 in the draft order?
Same question, I presume. We pick tomorrow, which gives us 24 hours to FORMULATE the town reads. We then look at the draft order, and see if we have good town reads on the first 4-5 people in the draft order. Outside of that, we can't control it very much, but if we CAN deny mafia roles through this method, WE SHOULD. if we can't, oh well, but we've at least attempted to gain an advantage. The plan doesn't hurt town if it doesn't work for some reason, it can only help if it does.
On April 04 2013 13:17 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:13 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.. What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop. Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you. It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED. There are plenty of people in this player list that can garner support as scum; either by blending skill *OR* reputation. I simply do not agree.
You were in LIX, where Marv was supertown and we all elected him. Town is good at getting town reads, and the PROCESS of arguing for who looks the most town to get these roles is essentially a mayoral election, which gives us more information out of the picking phase than simply letting people pick whatever they want.
I do think scum have a CHANCE at looking town enough, but I feel that it is very slim. I also feel that if they get a role like this, they'll still be under extreme scrutiny the entire game, which is a point in TOWN'S favor. I am generally more optimistic about this process than you, Mocsta. Fortunately, my plan does not require 100% participation.
|
On April 04 2013 13:16 yamato77 wrote:
There are ways we can play around a role like janitor, but you are right in that town would be better off denying the role completely.
Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta.
To be honest, I actually had a few nitpicky things in your post that I at first I really didn't like but I think I understand better now. Reading it again you seem to be doing a "stream of consciousness" sort of writing, and I think that set off some alarms early and needlessly. Your more recent posts have been much more to my liking.
I'm glad you also see the need to deny roles, however I disagree with your method slightly. I can see how trying to do it based on town reads after the draft order has been revealed could work, but I think that assigning the picks to draft order before it has been revealed would be most effective.
On April 04 2013 13:22 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:19 Keirathi wrote:On April 04 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:14 Sharrant wrote:On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have? "Janitor" Busy always cleaning up after other people's mess. You love your job so much though that you'll even clean up dead bodies. During the Night you may PM me that you want to clean up all the dead bodies in Town. No player's role or alignment will be revealed upon death for that upcoming Day. Since you are cleaning up the bodies however, you will learn the role and alignment of all the bodies you clean up. You can only use this ability once.
My interpretation is that after 48 hrs (Day cycle) the real flips are revealed. You're interpretation is wrong (at least with how Janitors normally work). The red part that you quoted means that none of the following Day's flips (aka the night kills) will be revealed AT ALL. Never. Shooting off to lunch. But if that is the case than yes. I think its a good idea to remove from the scum power list.
I'm glad we agree.
On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have.
I'm interested to hear this combination. I can see many ways that scum would be able to kill a player knowing their role.
Yes, having an extractor AND BloodyCobbler would net them 1 kill per cycle extra. But that's for 2 roles, as opposed to having an assassin and saying "green" every single time and getting 1 kill per cycle extra for only a single role.
Now, there are combinations I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to give anyone ideas, if you're thinking of anything involving the politician, there's a good chance I've thought of that as well, there are ways to stop that. But if you think there's something that is specifically of horrendous consequence for this plan, please do elaborate. If this plan is bad I would like you to change my mind, otherwise I would like to change yours.
I'm going to bed now, if I get bored I might wander back and read more, but that's doubtful.
Good night, everyone. I hope you're all as excited for the draft as I am.
|
11589 Posts
Assigning picks to draft order before knowing the order is horrible; you would have to policy lynch people that gets certain roles at certain point in the game.
|
On April 04 2013 13:33 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have. I'm interested to hear this combination. I can see many ways that scum would be able to kill a player knowing their role. Yes, having an extractor AND BloodyCobbler would net them 1 kill per cycle extra. But that's for 2 roles, as opposed to having an assassin and saying "green" every single time and getting 1 kill per cycle extra for only a single role. Now, there are combinations I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to give anyone ideas, if you're thinking of anything involving the politician, there's a good chance I've thought of that as well, there are ways to stop that. But if you think there's something that is specifically of horrendous consequence for this plan, please do elaborate. If this plan is bad I would like you to change my mind, otherwise I would like to change yours. I'm going to bed now, if I get bored I might wander back and read more, but that's doubtful. Good night, everyone. I hope you're all as excited for the draft as I am.
As far as I know, that's not how assassin works. It requires the person to either say "Red" or their role name.
I'd rather not share what the combination is, as it's a bit unusual and I doubt if anyone on mafia will be easily able to figure it out. But the fact that I was able to think of it definitely means that someone else might also recognize it.
|
Keep in mind that everyone knows their alignments and this isnt pregame bullshit.
I think that scum already have their qt so yeah....
Also I think that directed picking is HORRIBLE for town. Because its like directing blue roles. NOT GOOD.
|
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:01 Oatsmaster wrote:
Keep in mind that everyone knows their alignments and this isnt pregame bullshit.
I think that scum already have their qt so yeah....
Also I think that directed picking is HORRIBLE for town. Because its like directing blue roles. NOT GOOD.
No, it's not anything like that at all.
|
Is that not sharrant is suggesting?
|
11589 Posts
But it's not what I'm suggesting.
What do you think about my plan, in specific?
For consolidation, my plan is to assign TOWN-LOOKING players that are early in the draft order roles that mafia would want, so that we can deny mafia these roles, such as vote-rigger or janitor.
|
So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
|
WELP I wasn't expecting any kind of serious activity during this draft phase 
Ah well I'll read it all tomorrow. My numbers are already submitted as promised anyway.
|
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote:
So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid.
You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role.
|
On April 04 2013 14:32 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote:
So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid. You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role.
Yeah thats playing to prevent mafia from winning.
Like OH LETS PICK JANITOR FOR THIS DUDE. you are basically a VT.
Why dont you pick janitor?
VT be boring yo.
|
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:41 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 14:32 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote:
So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid. You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role. Yeah thats playing to prevent mafia from winning. Like OH LETS PICK JANITOR FOR THIS DUDE. you are basically a VT. Why dont you pick janitor? VT be boring yo.
"Playing to prevent mafia from winning" is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as playing to help town win. Just arguing against it by saying it's "boring" is bullshit. Oats, you aren't this stupid.
|
yamato.
Is an invest role or a janitor role better for town.
It pains me to have to walk you through this :/
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
