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On April 04 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:/confirm Hi peoples! So are we planning to plan, or are we planning for not planning? What's the plan, Stan? Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 11:44 Keirathi wrote:/ignore gonzaw  Anyways, herro friends. Hello lover.
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I forgot you were in this game.
As far as planning, I honestly think the only kind of planning we need is a list of [b]Do-Not-Pick-Or-You-Get-Lynched-When-We-Find-Out[b] roles (Prince of Darkness, Admiral Ackbar...Vote Rigger? not sure what else).
Otherwise, just have fun IMO.
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Okay, I've read up a bit on some of the past games. I think it's best if no one reveals their numbers for the draft phase.
I believe that the best strategy for town is to hope for number conflicts. Given our larger pool of players each conflicting number between town hurts us a little bit, but each conflicting number between town and mafia hurts them a lot.
As far as a power picking strategy goes, I think we need to agree on a couple things, and then assign a few roles.
Please note if you disagree with any of these things.
1. America should not be picked by any town member. I don't think it very strongly benefits town. The only way I think it benefits town is if it is used by a town player to essentially act as a second lynch. I believe that America must announce its nuke in the thread (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). This is my proposal. Either A) we all agree to avoid the role. No town member takes it, thus if it is ever used we will know that a mafia member took it. or B) If someone does pick it they announce themselves right away and we use it as a second lynch. Announcing it after day 1, or using the power to kill someone that the town does not agree on should be seen as that person claiming scum.
I personally prefer option A, but I can't control anyone.
2. Kingmaker should not be picked by any town member. This is another role that does not benefit town nearly as much as mafia. As the game goes on there's more and more chance that you will give mafia an extra kill, and there's no guarantee that if you give a townie the extra lynch that they will lynch a mafia. The same thing goes as with america if this role is picked though, and someone makes you king, announce that you're the king, and go with the majority using it as a second lynch.
I believe it's absolutely imperative to deny these roles:
1. Janitor We can't let mafia get this role, it denies us far too much information, we need to be able to determine who has this role, which means we need to assign it. That way we can make sure the role will never be used, or if it is thatn we know who to lynch/vig immediately.
2. Assassin/CPR doctor We need to block these roles as well, both of these are incredibly strong roles (each giving the mafia a guaranteed 1 KP per cycle)
3. Thief Another really strong mafia role, this could be somewhat useful for town, I guess. But I think it's most important to simply deny mafia the role.
4. Prince of Darkness I'm not sure if this is worth denying, so I'd like opinions on this one. I'm leaning towards attempting to deny it because it has the potential to give mafia A LOT of kills in a row.
Last but not least, if we're assigning roles I think the best way to do it is to assign based on draft position order. This however means we should decide which positions will choose what role today. That way there's no arguments about it tomorrow.
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Hhhhhhokay.
Ima make a bad case at some point during day 1. Just wanted to put tha out there. It will almost certainly be serious tho.
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Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them.
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@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge?
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Okay, a couple of the roles speak to me so I'll figure it out by the time we need to submit. LOL Prince of Darkness that's such an awesome name for a power. Showtime! just makes me think about that movie with Eddie Murphy and DeNiro.
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11589 Posts
We don't need to deny mafia roles necessarily, we just need to be smart about our own role picks and usage in order to win.
If there's any plan I want to espouse to town is - pick the informative roles. Mafia have zero purpose for them, as they generally know the alignments of nearly every player in the game. While knowing the ROLE of a player is nice, most of the information roles deal with alignment, which mafia rarely has any use for.
Contest KP roles as early picks. If you are town, it is imperative that we take KP roles before mafia get them. There are enough good town players in this game that we should be able to win as long as some of us live, which means denying mafia the power to kill us off easily. Defensive roles are in the same vein; if you are good at getting town reads but bad at identifying mafia, you should opt for them over the KP roles.
If a town player with an early pick wants to deny a strong mafia-favored role, I think it's fine. While this opens up a can of worms as to whether they are actually town or not if they get rolecop'd, the main thing a town player should adhere to when picking this kind of role is to CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE IT. Mafia's advantage with this role is keeping it secret for a while and then using it as a surprise to town. If you are town and feel like you want to deny mafia this role, you HAVE TO claim it, because not doing so and getting found out should be a policy-lynch, because town cannot have you alive at lylo, for the risk.
As a general strategy, though, town should be aiming at INFO/KP/DEFENSIVE roles. Mafia will be aiming at the CYCLE/VOTE RIGGING/MANIPULATING roles. The only overlap (assuming town and mafia don't try to deny each other's roles) would be in the KP section, which most of the early picks from town SHOULD go to. I would rather town have a lot of vig's and such than mafia having them, and allowing them vote-rigger roles and such is less of a detriment, as long as town is able to play smart throughout.
As for late-picks as town, try to pick a role you know mafia probably wouldn't even try to contest. It's more important for us, as town, to get a lot of people with pro-town roles than it is for us to try to get "powerful" roles that could have already been taken. Mafia also NEED a role more than town, so it's not so bad if you end up vanilla, as your ability to scumhunt is still the most powerful thing in the game. You will need it regardless, as most roles as town RELY on your ability to identify good targets for your role.
ON THAT NOTE: Pick a role that you can use at your skill level! Be real with yourself. Some of these roles could be EXTREMELY bad for town if used improperly, even if used by a town player. I know we all have huge egos, but if you have ANY doubts about your ability to use your role to its MAXIMUM pro-town effect, please do not pick it. There are plenty of roles that are easy to use that won't fuck over town. Think wisely.
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On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge?
No, I do not believe that is the intent at all.
Context:
(1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet)
(2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not.
I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order.
If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap.
This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum);
and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla.
My 2c:
I am going to submit my 2 numbers.
Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for.
I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role.
As an aside
Im not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is.
The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip.
I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip.
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11589 Posts
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads.
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On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote:
Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them.
If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion.
I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game.
There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions.
The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
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11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip.
The thing is, mocsta, it is far more important for town to deny certain roles to mafia than it is for town to have a role period. Through the public draft order, town can virtually deny mafia a role by assigning the role to a strong townread that is close to the front of the pack. If that player is town, he either gets the role OR town knows the possible people that COULD have gotten the role. Either way, it hurts mafia.
I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL.
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On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that..
What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato?
The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles?
I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post.
But this post just now; I can not endorse.
Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end.
Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft.
If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you.
Know that I will not be participating. Full stop.
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11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote:
Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them. If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion. I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game. There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions. The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it.
This brings up my only real problem with the idea, which is that there are a LOT of roles town kinda wants to deny.
HOWEVER, there are some which are either too hard to use effectively as town, or flat out mafia favored, which town SHOULD deny. We can easily identify 1-3 of those and deny mafia all of them.
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11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.. What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop.
Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you.
It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED.
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On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote:
@Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip.
How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control.
Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions?
Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have?
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On April 04 2013 13:08 yamato77 wrote:
I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL.
I just came out of "The Game" so you will have to excuse me if we differ with opinion on this matter.
For me personally regardless of player list
Early Game: I put the trust in myself to either blend in as scum; or stand out as a contributor as town.
Regardless, I am not relying on "town" to act "town".
As I said before, if you want to follow this path.
Fine.
But right now, I have no means to knowing what you or sharrant or any other plan pushers alignment is. And hence, as I said before, I choose not to participate.
Why?
The stuff you are speaking of, is essentially common sense pro-town stuff that could be endorsed by town or scum.
I am not going to comment further on this. Best of luck with what ever path you intend to choose pre-draft.
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11589 Posts
There are ways we can play around a role like janitor, but you are right in that town would be better off denying the role completely.
Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta.
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On April 04 2013 13:13 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote:
I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.. What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop. Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you. It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED.
There are plenty of people in this player list that can garner support as scum; either by blending skill *OR* reputation.
I simply do not agree.
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Serious question for you, yamato:
What if the 1-2 people you have "solid town reads" on by tomorrow when the picking phase starts are #22 and #23 in the draft order?
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EPT
