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On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 08:52 qrs wrote:On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:My tentative vote is 18. Nf1+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out. + Show Spoiler +In your 18.Nf1 line: black can stop Bd2 by playing 18...Bd6 19.Ne3 c6. How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3? I'm not ready to vote yet, but in your line, perhaps White can progress with + Show Spoiler +20. Ra2 ( freeing the Bishop from guard duty and perhaps preparing to double Rooks) given that the Ne3 guards against a move like ...Bc4. E.g. 18. Nf1 Bd6 19. Ne3 c6 20. Ra2 a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Rb1 Ba6 23. b4. PGN viewer + Show Spoiler +Your line looks like it is just losing after 23...axb3. However, white doesn't have to play b4 so perhaps something like 18. Nf1 Bd6 19. Ne3 c6 20. Ra2 a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.
I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify.
I also can't find a move to vote on yet. I don't like the looks of b3 or b4 so it seems like it has to be a knight move, and Nf1 is appealing. I don't hate Nf3 as much as you guys seem to: I don't see the knight being that much better on e3, which is where it ends up in pretty much every Nf1 line. On f3 it also defends our e1 rook, which helps tactically in some lines. However, e3 still is a better square so I can't decide. I can't decide whether Nb1 works better than Nf1, either. I'm not sure what I was thinking with that last move in the line I gave. My only excuse is that I was exhausted when I posted.
Anyway, we have a tough decision here, but it's not for lack of moves. I'll try to go over the analysis that's been posted so far and then post a summary, if I can.
Also:
Move 17 votes (final)
+ Show Spoiler [votes] +17. Nxd2: 27 (jdseemoreglass, Cloud9157, EnderSword, mastergriggy, hp.Shell, itsjustatank, Malinor, Malli, chesshaha, Mash2, Raysalis, Sm3agol, keyStorm, EvilNalu, dtvu, SheaR619, ffreakk, A-tan, wuBu, lightman, Genesis, Blazinghand, shackes, Chezus, TehForce, qrs, timh)
Offering draw: 1/42 active players (Blazinghand)
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Playing Nf3 doesn't really do anything. Playing Nf1 continues to give black essentially free tempi while our queen-side cramp has yet to be resolved. Rb1 is simply refuted by a5. There is really no way to defend the b4 square enough to hold a pawn there, so playing Rb1 is a misguided plan. Moving a king-side pawn is likewise pointless.
+ Show Spoiler +Black has delayed playing a5. I've looked for the threat or advantage from the Re8 move, and I don't see anything that will prevent us from what should be our queen-side play. I've decided we simply have to relieve the bishop from defense of the pawn, and the easiest and fastest way to do that is to play b4 immediately. Black didn't play a5, and so this is our chance to push that pawn.
a5 is almost necessary after the move b4. I can't find any other moves that would force us away from eventually playing Nb3. If black plays anything besides a5, we can simply play Nb3 and have an amazing position.
So 18. b4 a5 19. bxa5 is what I am looking at here. Eventually black will have to spend a tempo or two to round up our second won pawn, and that will give us time to get a stronger position. We have many more options here compared with other moves. Don't forget we can even contest the b-file with Rb1, since our knight guards that square. Or we can move our knight and develop our bishop. Or we can play a4 and develop our bishop to a3.
My point is that b4 is a very liberating move that gives us many more options than we have now. We can't let this cramp continue for much longer, and play b4 immediately is the way to resolve it.
Vote: 18. b4
I could potentially support the moves Re3 or b3 as alternatives to b4. They seem at least productive and flexible. But everything else looks weak.
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unvote f4 due to some insight ;x
+ Show Spoiler +i think he played Re8 in order to be playing Bf8 to pressure on g7/h6. by playing Re8 he can take out another possible defender on the kingside. f4+ Show Spoiler +fortify kingside possibly g3 and relocate king to help defend queenside.
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On October 25 2011 01:39 timh wrote:f4+ Show Spoiler +i think he played Re8 in order to be playing Bf8 to pressure on g7/h6. by playing Re8 he can take out another possible defender on the kingside. f4+ Show Spoiler +fortify kingside possibly g3 and relocate king to help defend queenside.
+ Show Spoiler +18. f4 c5 and then what for white? If he captures the pawn he loses his rook. If he leaves the pawn there, black plays c4 and our queenside is completely locked down.
On October 25 2011 00:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Playing Nf3 doesn't really do anything. Playing Nf1 continues to give black essentially free tempi while our queen-side cramp has yet to be resolved. Rb1 is simply refuted by a5. There is really no way to defend the b4 square enough to hold a pawn there, so playing Rb1 is a misguided plan. Moving a king-side pawn is likewise pointless. + Show Spoiler +Black has delayed playing a5. I've looked for the threat or advantage from the Re8 move, and I don't see anything that will prevent us from what should be our queen-side play. I've decided we simply have to relieve the bishop from defense of the pawn, and the easiest and fastest way to do that is to play b4 immediately. Black didn't play a5, and so this is our chance to push that pawn.
a5 is almost necessary after the move b4. I can't find any other moves that would force us away from eventually playing Nb3. If black plays anything besides a5, we can simply play Nb3 and have an amazing position.
So 18. b4 a5 19. bxa5 is what I am looking at here. Eventually black will have to spend a tempo or two to round up our second won pawn, and that will give us time to get a stronger position. We have many more options here compared with other moves. Don't forget we can even contest the b-file with Rb1, since our knight guards that square. Or we can move our knight and develop our bishop. Or we can play a4 and develop our bishop to a3.
My point is that b4 is a very liberating move that gives us many more options than we have now. We can't let this cramp continue for much longer, and play b4 immediately is the way to resolve it.
Vote: 18. b4I could potentially support the moves Re3 or b3 as alternatives to b4. They seem at least productive and flexible. But everything else looks weak.
+ Show Spoiler +I kind of see b4 as still to premature in this position. The general theme being that as soon as white plays it, black brings his rook down and locks our queen side down. That's why I advocate Nf1 first and then b4, as black no longer has access to the b file with the rook even after a5 and bxa5. My analysis is here (for the first moves) and here for the concerns raised about Nf1. As far as b3 goes, I think it is a viable move and I'm not seeing any short term problems with it. I kinda liked it myself more than Nf1, but I know more about Nf1 which is why I said it is my tentative vote.
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we cant f4 or he will push his bishop to our mid pawn, leaving us in check with a lost rook
unvote f4 please
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An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out.
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On October 24 2011 18:39 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think one additional bonus of Nf1 is that white can play Nf1-e3-c2, defending all of e1, b4, a3 and d4. Obviously the knight gets chased away by Bf5, but then bishop can't actually come to c5 until the knight leaves e3. Something along the lines of http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=746899P.S. Sorry if my analysis has been somewhat random and haphazard and shite recently, I've been looking at this between/during lectures -.-
The problem I have with your analysis here is that he seems to be more of a positional player than you, where you are exploring obscure trades here
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On October 25 2011 02:01 mastergriggy wrote:An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out.
i obviously meant bc5.
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On October 25 2011 00:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:Playing Nf3 doesn't really do anything. Playing Nf1 continues to give black essentially free tempi while our queen-side cramp has yet to be resolved. Rb1 is simply refuted by a5. There is really no way to defend the b4 square enough to hold a pawn there, so playing Rb1 is a misguided plan. Moving a king-side pawn is likewise pointless. + Show Spoiler +Black has delayed playing a5. I've looked for the threat or advantage from the Re8 move, and I don't see anything that will prevent us from what should be our queen-side play. I've decided we simply have to relieve the bishop from defense of the pawn, and the easiest and fastest way to do that is to play b4 immediately. Black didn't play a5, and so this is our chance to push that pawn.
a5 is almost necessary after the move b4. I can't find any other moves that would force us away from eventually playing Nb3. If black plays anything besides a5, we can simply play Nb3 and have an amazing position.
So 18. b4 a5 19. bxa5 is what I am looking at here. Eventually black will have to spend a tempo or two to round up our second won pawn, and that will give us time to get a stronger position. We have many more options here compared with other moves. Don't forget we can even contest the b-file with Rb1, since our knight guards that square. Or we can move our knight and develop our bishop. Or we can play a4 and develop our bishop to a3.
My point is that b4 is a very liberating move that gives us many more options than we have now. We can't let this cramp continue for much longer, and play b4 immediately is the way to resolve it.
Vote: 18. b4I could potentially support the moves Re3 or b3 as alternatives to b4. They seem at least productive and flexible. But everything else looks weak. It's possible that 18. b4 is a good choice--I'm still not sure what I think about our position--but one correction:
+ Show Spoiler + If black plays anything besides a5, we can simply play Nb3 and have an amazing position. Unless I'm mistaken, we can't play 19. Nb3 after 18...Ba6 or 18...Bb7, else we lose the pawn to 19... Bxb4 (20. RxR RxR), where the threat of ...Re1# gives Black time to get his dark-squared Bishop out again. That doesn't mean that we don't have other good moves in those positions, of course.
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On October 25 2011 02:05 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:01 mastergriggy wrote:An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out. i obviously meant bc5.
That's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't sure sorry.
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18. Nb1
Just so it gets a little more analysis  Looks good I think.
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Hong Kong9162 Posts
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On October 25 2011 02:05 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 18:39 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think one additional bonus of Nf1 is that white can play Nf1-e3-c2, defending all of e1, b4, a3 and d4. Obviously the knight gets chased away by Bf5, but then bishop can't actually come to c5 until the knight leaves e3. Something along the lines of http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=746899P.S. Sorry if my analysis has been somewhat random and haphazard and shite recently, I've been looking at this between/during lectures -.- The problem I have with your analysis here is that he seems to be more of a positional player than you, where you are exploring obscure trades here
Feel free to elaborate.
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+ Show Spoiler +Well, for instance, I feel like in your line we can put him in a worse position than you think
I explored it, and I don't see him making the move Rb3 when you make it, for instance
What would he gain from that? We can easily defend that pawn as you showed in moving the knight subsequently
In your other line you have him playing c6, so I'm just going to fucking stop there
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unvote
I feel like b4 ends up losing our d pawn
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On October 25 2011 03:38 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well, for instance, I feel like in your line we can put him in a worse position than you think
I explored it, and I don't see him making the move Rb3 when you make it, for instance
What would he gain from that? We can easily defend that pawn as you showed in moving the knight subsequently
In your other line you have him playing c6, so I'm just going to fucking stop there
+ Show Spoiler +c6 is a very strong move for black in almost every line.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RBoJU.png)
