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United States22883 Posts
On May 07 2011 06:54 Sun7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 06:52 derive wrote:Come on, Zealots vs a Roach all-in? He couldn't make anything else at that time. It doesn't prove anything and I'm not saying that he cheated, but don't use the fact that he made zealots as something proving that he wasn't ghosting. but he also chrono boosted them when idra's roaches where in the middle of the map...why do it blindly?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/173493-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
It's part of his build. He chronos out 2 zealots vs Ret too.
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On May 07 2011 07:12 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:09 Loooui wrote:On May 07 2011 06:17 Venomsflame wrote:On May 07 2011 06:08 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote:It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.
Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we? On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece. - IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshotPlenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally. - CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA. This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias. - CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either. Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.
- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective. - TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community" When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it. Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago. IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.
To recap: - No evidence against CrunCher. - Only biased conjecture. TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists. I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out. You know what's funnier? The screenshot Cruncher took was taken 30 minutes AFTER his game with IdrA and posted nearly an hour later with the time on the bottom right snipped out. Source? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=22#430 THANK YOU. Reading through the thread it is RIDICULOUS that no one even pays attention. Does anyone even doubt that Cruncher would do something like this? IdrA was not treated unfairly but the blatant lack of "investigating" or even plain looking at the evidence by anyone is plain embarrassing. Cruncher did nothing to clear his name and should be considered a streamcheater until any actual evidence proves otherwise. TL should not have shut either stream off as it is not an offense to TL or any tournament/competitive play they host, but for the community's view it should be rather clear who is at fault. oh the ignorance of these two latest post combined is over 9000. Get your facts right please, cruncher did NOT post that screenshot. Also read the Cruncher respond in that thread. LOL chronoing 2 zealots if you know roach all in is incoming instead of making cannons... yeah i suppose now you will say he did a BAD counter to cover up his cheat, no matter what, the cruncher hate continues. Actually double chronoing zealots is the most suspicious part of the whole replay, which is also what Jibba's protoss source likely said (and the source is someone you'd respect). Still, there's no conclusive evidence, so this discussion is pretty much pointless.
Actually going double zealots vs a roach allin is just stupid. He can make cannons instead and get free win. Sinking 200 minerals for free in zealots is to put pressure if the zerg drones up to hard.
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On May 07 2011 07:31 Loooui wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:12 syllogism wrote:On May 07 2011 07:09 Loooui wrote:On May 07 2011 06:17 Venomsflame wrote:On May 07 2011 06:08 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote:It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.
Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we? On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece. - IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshotPlenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally. - CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA. This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias. - CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either. Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.
- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective. - TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community" When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it. Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago. IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.
To recap: - No evidence against CrunCher. - Only biased conjecture. TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists. I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out. You know what's funnier? The screenshot Cruncher took was taken 30 minutes AFTER his game with IdrA and posted nearly an hour later with the time on the bottom right snipped out. Source? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=22#430 THANK YOU. Reading through the thread it is RIDICULOUS that no one even pays attention. Does anyone even doubt that Cruncher would do something like this? IdrA was not treated unfairly but the blatant lack of "investigating" or even plain looking at the evidence by anyone is plain embarrassing. Cruncher did nothing to clear his name and should be considered a streamcheater until any actual evidence proves otherwise. TL should not have shut either stream off as it is not an offense to TL or any tournament/competitive play they host, but for the community's view it should be rather clear who is at fault. oh the ignorance of these two latest post combined is over 9000. Get your facts right please, cruncher did NOT post that screenshot. Also read the Cruncher respond in that thread. LOL chronoing 2 zealots if you know roach all in is incoming instead of making cannons... yeah i suppose now you will say he did a BAD counter to cover up his cheat, no matter what, the cruncher hate continues. Actually double chronoing zealots is the most suspicious part of the whole replay, which is also what Jibba's protoss source likely said (and the source is someone you'd respect). Still, there's no conclusive evidence, so this discussion is pretty much pointless. Actually going double zealots vs a roach allin is just stupid. He can make cannons instead and get free win. Sinking 200 minerals for free in zealots is to put pressure if the zerg drones up to hard.
In the light of that replay above this is moot, but he could have been bad enough to think it was a roach ling all-in and he couldn't afford stalkers quite yet. Chronoing zealots like that as a part of his standard opening doesn't make sense, but it is apparently regardless part of his build. Easy to see why Idra assumed he was stream cheating, because the build doesn't make sense
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On May 07 2011 07:33 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:31 Loooui wrote:On May 07 2011 07:12 syllogism wrote:On May 07 2011 07:09 Loooui wrote:On May 07 2011 06:17 Venomsflame wrote:On May 07 2011 06:08 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote:It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.
Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we? On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece. - IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshotPlenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally. - CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA. This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias. - CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either. Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.
- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective. - TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community" When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it. Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago. IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.
To recap: - No evidence against CrunCher. - Only biased conjecture. TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists. I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out. You know what's funnier? The screenshot Cruncher took was taken 30 minutes AFTER his game with IdrA and posted nearly an hour later with the time on the bottom right snipped out. Source? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=22#430 THANK YOU. Reading through the thread it is RIDICULOUS that no one even pays attention. Does anyone even doubt that Cruncher would do something like this? IdrA was not treated unfairly but the blatant lack of "investigating" or even plain looking at the evidence by anyone is plain embarrassing. Cruncher did nothing to clear his name and should be considered a streamcheater until any actual evidence proves otherwise. TL should not have shut either stream off as it is not an offense to TL or any tournament/competitive play they host, but for the community's view it should be rather clear who is at fault. oh the ignorance of these two latest post combined is over 9000. Get your facts right please, cruncher did NOT post that screenshot. Also read the Cruncher respond in that thread. LOL chronoing 2 zealots if you know roach all in is incoming instead of making cannons... yeah i suppose now you will say he did a BAD counter to cover up his cheat, no matter what, the cruncher hate continues. Actually double chronoing zealots is the most suspicious part of the whole replay, which is also what Jibba's protoss source likely said (and the source is someone you'd respect). Still, there's no conclusive evidence, so this discussion is pretty much pointless. Actually going double zealots vs a roach allin is just stupid. He can make cannons instead and get free win. Sinking 200 minerals for free in zealots is to put pressure if the zerg drones up to hard. In the light of that replay above this is moot, but he could have been bad enough to think it was a roach ling all-in and he couldn't afford stalkers quite yet. Chronoing zealots like that as a part of his standard opening doesn't make sense, but it is apparently regardless part of his build. Easy to see why Idra assumed he was stream cheating, because the build doesn't make sense
Tell me, why dosn´t it make sense?
With fast zealots you force the zerg to make units instead of drones, even though the zerg is already behind with a later hatchery and therefore wants to make plenty of drones. And if the zerg tries to all in it is not exactly the best option, but as you saw cruncher managed to hold it anyway.
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They are the world's latest zealots and he'll have lings outside your gates before the zealots are anywhere near done and if the zerg goes roaches, the zealots are worthless as you said. Further, 2 zealots isn't anywhere near enough by that point of the game and even if zerg doesn't make any units besides the standard 4-6 lings, they'll easily be held off with a queen. You'll be more economically ahead by just chronoing your nexuses instead or safer by making an extra cannon.
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On May 07 2011 07:45 syllogism wrote:
They are the world's latest zealots and he'll have lings outside your gates before the zealots are anywhere near done and if the zerg goes roaches, the zealots are worthless as you said. Further, 2 zealots isn't anywhere near enough by that point of the game and even if zerg doesn't make any units besides the standard 4-6 lings, they'll easily be held off with a queen. You'll be more economically ahead by just chronoing your nexuses instead or safer by making an extra cannon.
No this is wrong. Those zealots are very good timed to put pressure, he can wait until he has 4 zealots or just poke with the first 2 and run back to the cannon. The zerg needs to drone up or all in at that point and should not have more than 4 lings on the field (assuming he is not all in). Those zealots only cost minerals and let you put early pressure, an extra cannon is useless against a ecoing zerg, but those zealots are not.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 07 2011 07:14 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 06:55 tree.hugger wrote:On May 07 2011 06:08 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote:It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.
Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we? On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece. - IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshotPlenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally. - CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA. This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias. - CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either. Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.
- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective. - TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community" When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it. Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago. IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.
To recap: - No evidence against CrunCher. - Only biased conjecture. TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists. I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out. You know what's funnier? The screenshot Cruncher took was taken 30 minutes AFTER his game with IdrA and posted nearly an hour later with the time on the bottom right snipped out. Source? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=22#430 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I seriously can't stop laughing. Too perfect. CrunCher wasn't the person who posted that screenshot. Should CrunCher release the long form replay, or will the certificate of live egg on your face suffice? It boils down to this. Innocent until proven guilty. CrunCher has provided compelling circumstantial evidence that he is innocent. A few hysterical IdrA fans have provided conspiracy theories. This is a non-issue. CrunCher is such a troll. EDIT: On May 07 2011 06:56 Mactator wrote:
Cruncher is getting way too much attention for having sniped Idra on his stream. This guy should start performing instead of sniping Idra who obviously is pretty tired of him. So stop this girlish drama. Cruncher hasn't performed yet. He should manner up and be more quiet.  Whoa, relax man. If you even read the link I posted I corrected myself and said a third party took the screenshot, but the fact remains that the screenshot could not be used because the timestamp on Cruncher's stream, viewable inside the screenshot, was still 30 minutes after his game against Idra. Further down I even stated that there was not enough evidence to say Cruncher streamcheated, but only that the screenshot could not be used as otherwise because of the time in which it was taken. Again, take a deep breath and relax before you blow an artery.
Hahaha, I wasn't the one who posted "incriminating evidence" in all bold text. Did you just now forget that the screenshot was posted in an attempt to prove CrunCher's guilt?
I'm so baffled by this. There is no evidence to even come to the conclusion that CrunCher was cheating. Someone posted a screenshot attempting to prove he was cheating. CrunCher pointed out that the screenshot proved he was innocent. Someone argued that CrunCher's screenshot was taken at the wrong time, therefore he must be lying. CrunCher pointed out that he had never taken the screenshot in the first place. Now you're arguing that the screenshot cannot be used in CrunCher's defense. Alright then, but it sure can't be used to accuse him either, so where does this leave the conspiracy theorists?
Back where they started. With nothing.
It's a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't kinda thing. Beyond IdrA's in-game rage, is there anybody, anywhere who can produce even the slightest shred of evidence that CrunCher was listening to IdrA's stream, as opposed to simply sniping him?
How is the absence of evidence considered evidence?
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It's weird, when I was in high school I had the answers to a test sitting on my desk out in the open. I told the teacher I wasn't going to look at them, but she still took it away. She had no evidence I looked at them, or was going to do anything wrong, does that mean what I did was OK?
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On May 07 2011 07:59 Loooui wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:45 syllogism wrote:
They are the world's latest zealots and he'll have lings outside your gates before the zealots are anywhere near done and if the zerg goes roaches, the zealots are worthless as you said. Further, 2 zealots isn't anywhere near enough by that point of the game and even if zerg doesn't make any units besides the standard 4-6 lings, they'll easily be held off with a queen. You'll be more economically ahead by just chronoing your nexuses instead or safer by making an extra cannon. No this is wrong. Those zealots are very good timed to put pressure, he can wait until he has 4 zealots or just poke with the first 2 and run back to the cannon. The zerg needs to drone up or all in at that point and should not have more than 4 lings on the field (assuming he is not all in). Those zealots only cost minerals and let you put early pressure, an extra cannon is useless against a ecoing zerg, but those zealots are not.
The main issue is that two zealots doesn't just cost Cruncher 200 minerals. He also gets the 2nd gateway instead of a cybernetic core. This sets him behind in tech for quite some time. Against a midgame roach push, getting the 2nd gateway is quite bad, since you won't be able to produce a void ray, or early sentries, or early stalkers for quite some time. And against a 2-base hydra drop, which is a pretty common answer to FE toss, 2-gate and delayed tech is EXTREMELY bad. You need that sentry/stalker count or you need a fast colossus to deal with that drop.
In addition, 2-gate opening is a viable pressure opening because of what stage of the zerg economy it hits. In that stage, zerg is very larva starved, and doesn't have zergling speed, which makes it be more threatening. At that stage in the game, 2 zealots moving out doesn't require any real response from Idra. 4 zealots comes even later and is a 400 mineral guaranteed loss. 16 lings from the zerg plus the queen is more than enough to hold off 4 zealots, and that only costs zerg 200 minerals.
Furthermore, zealots poking out, showing 4 hurts the protoss more than the pressure that it would exert on zerg. This is from my experience playing Protoss at a masters level. And this is also from my experience playing Zerg at a masters level.
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On May 07 2011 08:09 Frozenserpent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:59 Loooui wrote:On May 07 2011 07:45 syllogism wrote:
They are the world's latest zealots and he'll have lings outside your gates before the zealots are anywhere near done and if the zerg goes roaches, the zealots are worthless as you said. Further, 2 zealots isn't anywhere near enough by that point of the game and even if zerg doesn't make any units besides the standard 4-6 lings, they'll easily be held off with a queen. You'll be more economically ahead by just chronoing your nexuses instead or safer by making an extra cannon. No this is wrong. Those zealots are very good timed to put pressure, he can wait until he has 4 zealots or just poke with the first 2 and run back to the cannon. The zerg needs to drone up or all in at that point and should not have more than 4 lings on the field (assuming he is not all in). Those zealots only cost minerals and let you put early pressure, an extra cannon is useless against a ecoing zerg, but those zealots are not. The main issue is that two zealots doesn't just cost Cruncher 200 minerals. He also gets the 2nd gateway instead of a cybernetic core. This sets him behind in tech for quite some time. Against a midgame roach push, getting the 2nd gateway is quite bad, since you won't be able to produce a void ray, or early sentries, or early stalkers for quite some time. And against a 2-base hydra drop, which is a pretty common answer to FE toss, 2-gate and delayed tech is EXTREMELY bad. You need that sentry/stalker count or you need a fast colossus to deal with that drop. In addition, 2-gate opening is a viable pressure opening because of what stage of the zerg economy it hits. In that stage, zerg is very larva starved, and doesn't have zergling speed, which makes it be more threatening. At that stage in the game, 2 zealots moving out doesn't require any real response from Idra. 4 zealots comes even later and is a 400 mineral guaranteed loss. 16 lings from the zerg plus the queen is more than enough to hold off 4 zealots, and that only costs zerg 200 minerals. Furthermore, zealots poking out, showing 4 hurts the protoss more than the pressure that it would exert on zerg. This is from my experience playing Protoss at a masters level. And this is also from my experience playing Zerg at a masters level.
Sure there are downsides and upsides with the build but my point is that it is a viable build and not something super weird. (And yes i am also master league with both z and p, but more importantly Cruncher is top grandmaster and use this expansion --> zealot pressure build quite often)
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How is the absence of evidence considered evidence?
I always say the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn't exist.
What I'm saying is that there are known knowns and that there are known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns; things we don't know that we don't know.
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Can we let it go already, its frigging ladder games!
Let this thread be to the awesome stream of Idra(especially with his commentary, which is just so helpful and informative!)
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the thing is that we know that cruncher was on idra's stream during the game and we rely on his honesty that he had the sound off and that he didn't alt-tab to view if idra had double expanded or not...and because of idra's words and because of their history and because he sniped him and because many people don't like cruncher they just don't believe him....i don't believe this is going anywhere though...
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On May 07 2011 08:01 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:14 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 06:55 tree.hugger wrote:On May 07 2011 06:08 Nagano wrote:On May 07 2011 05:22 tree.hugger wrote:It's really depressing to me to find out that IdrA fans have adopted his perennial whiny attitude and his perpetual claims of being the victim. It's actually pretty unprecedented for an entire fanbase to adopt the distinguishing personality traits of their idol. After all, Bisu fans are no more handsome now than they were a few years ago.
Are there enough people in this thread to look at this rationally? Let's find out, shall we? On May 07 2011 03:57 Essentia wrote:
Wait so Cruncher posted a screenshot of him having Idra's stream opened while he was playing and yet ppl say that's not enough evidence? Where's the logic in that? There's clearly a good majority of you who have no idea what you're talking about. For example, this person has clearly not actually looked at the screenshot in question, nor read CrunCher's explanation for his actions. Let's go over this piece by piece. - IdrA's stream is MUTED in the CrunCher screenshotPlenty of people have said that CrunCher could easily have turned up the volume to the stream at some other point. This is true. However, he also could've mixed himself a martini during the countdown. Any speculation on what CrunCher could have done is the product of bias. Pure and simple. The only concrete evidence we have that CrunCher was looking at IdrA's stream shows him doing so completely legally. - CrunCher explained the reason he had IdrA's stream open was that he was attempting to 'snipe' IdrA. This means something highly specific in this case. It means that CrunCher was attempting to enter the queue for finding games at the exact moment that IdrA did, thereby increasing the chances that they would play each other. There is nothing wrong with this. This is perfectly logical and plausible. Any speculation on other reasons why CrunCher may have been watching IdrA's stream are the product of bias. - CrunCher's play is not standard, but it's not completely odd either. Plenty of protoss wall-in with two gateways. Plenty of protoss add more than one cannon, especially if they do not have good scouting information. CrunCher knew that he had done early damage to IdrA by delaying his hatchery for so long. IdrA has become well known recently for all-inning against protoss. Against CrunCher, and against CrunCher's opening, it is extremely reasonable for CrunCher to have played the way he did to be safe.
- IdrA doesn't have good enough perspective to make this call.We know IdrA doesn't like CrunCher. We know he said he thought CrunCher would stream look before he ever had the slightest shred of evidence to any effect. Throughout the game, he made a self-destructive decision and then ascribed all of CrunCher's actions to his earlier theory. IdrA cannot have made that accusation rationally. He even predicts two gate stalker when instead CrunCher sends out two zealots. IdrA had no perspective. - TL Mods acted to protect CrunCher/punish IdrA for what he said on stream/ruin it for "The Community" When this issue was first raised, several staff immediately suspected CrunCher of cheating and suggested that his stream be taken down. As Chill has posted, he sent a pm asking CrunCher for his side of the story. Once CrunCher posted his explanation and pointed out the muted stream in the screenshot, it was determined that his explanation was plausible, and that in the absence of any real proof, no action could fairly be taken against CrunCher. IdrA, meanwhile, was banned for posting an immature and disgusting insult. That's literally all there is to it. Anyone who says that IdrA has been treated unfairly on TL is so unbelievably wrong it's silly. If IdrA were anything but the best foreign BW player, he would've been banned permanently years ago. IdrA is perfectly able to keep streaming if he wants to. He's stopped streaming because he's throwing a temper tantrum and wants attention. TL doesn't need IdrA, but apparently he needs TL.
To recap: - No evidence against CrunCher. - Only biased conjecture. TL has a responsibility to be fair to all of its members. This isn't a popularity contest, this is a contest of who can produce proof of what they say. And IdrA and his fanboys have no proof. Reasonable doubt exists. I really can't understand why this is so hard to figure out. You know what's funnier? The screenshot Cruncher took was taken 30 minutes AFTER his game with IdrA and posted nearly an hour later with the time on the bottom right snipped out. Source? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205926¤tpage=22#430 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I seriously can't stop laughing. Too perfect. CrunCher wasn't the person who posted that screenshot. Should CrunCher release the long form replay, or will the certificate of live egg on your face suffice? It boils down to this. Innocent until proven guilty. CrunCher has provided compelling circumstantial evidence that he is innocent. A few hysterical IdrA fans have provided conspiracy theories. This is a non-issue. CrunCher is such a troll. EDIT: On May 07 2011 06:56 Mactator wrote:
Cruncher is getting way too much attention for having sniped Idra on his stream. This guy should start performing instead of sniping Idra who obviously is pretty tired of him. So stop this girlish drama. Cruncher hasn't performed yet. He should manner up and be more quiet. Whoa, relax man. If you even read the link I posted I corrected myself and said a third party took the screenshot, but the fact remains that the screenshot could not be used because the timestamp on Cruncher's stream, viewable inside the screenshot, was still 30 minutes after his game against Idra. Further down I even stated that there was not enough evidence to say Cruncher streamcheated, but only that the screenshot could not be used as otherwise because of the time in which it was taken. Again, take a deep breath and relax before you blow an artery. Hahaha, I wasn't the one who posted "incriminating evidence" in all bold text. Did you just now forget that the screenshot was posted in an attempt to prove CrunCher's guilt? I'm so baffled by this. There is no evidence to even come to the conclusion that CrunCher was cheating. Someone posted a screenshot attempting to prove he was cheating. CrunCher pointed out that the screenshot proved he was innocent. Someone argued that CrunCher's screenshot was taken at the wrong time, therefore he must be lying. CrunCher pointed out that he had never taken the screenshot in the first place. Now you're arguing that the screenshot cannot be used in CrunCher's defense. Alright then, but it sure can't be used to accuse him either, so where does this leave the conspiracy theorists? Back where they started. With nothing. It's a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't kinda thing. Beyond IdrA's in-game rage, is there anybody, anywhere who can produce even the slightest shred of evidence that CrunCher was listening to IdrA's stream, as opposed to simply sniping him? How is the absence of evidence considered evidence?
Well, personally I don't think we should condemn Cruncher all too much because, in the end, it is ladder and not too big of a deal, considering the circumstances.
However, for this kind of situation I really have to consider a scenario that is similar. The main piece of evidence is that Cruncher had the stream on during the duration of the game. The main piece of evidence for this is that Cruncher's justin.tv account was signed on for the duration of the game. Unfortunately, I don't have a screenshot proving this. However, I was watching this live, and it was simple for me to check this.
In addition, there were many other people in the chat who were also witness to this.
I think that we can safely conclude that Cruncher did have the stream on for the duration of the game. Even though we don't have a screenshot showing so directly, we have many witnesses that attest to this, and in real life, that is valid and strong evidence. An example would be, 30 people watch Person X vandalize the wall in front of them. Even though no one recorded Person X doing so, Person X would be found guilty because of those 30 people.
In this case, Cruncher is found "guilty" of having the stream on during the duration of the game.
In addition, there is some circumstantial evidence of irregular build order, throwing down a 2nd gateway instead of a cybernetics core is the big one, and chronoboosting 2 gateways simultaneously for 2 zealots to arrive before the all-in hits. That, by itself, isn't compelling evidence.
The question, then, is how strong of evidence is being on the stream?
One similar scenario I can think up of is cheating in an academic environment. Specifically, an important test. Maybe college entrance exams or something like that, or the final of a class.
Imagine if you are a teacher. You see a student taking the exam for your final. You see that the student has a book furtively open. It's placed in such a way that it is possible for the student to see the book. On the book page are essentially answers to the test. When you confront the student about the issue, he says that he was studying for the test right before test time, and during test time, he put the book away, and that he wasn't using the book to cheat.
When you look at the student's test, you find that the test has the correct answers for all of the information that the book gave. This is circumstantial evidence, analogous to Cruncher having the right "answer" to Idra's all-in.
As a teacher, do you think the student was cheating or not? I think the easy answer is that the standard case would be that the teacher will say the student is cheating, the student would be sent to the dean's office. The student would fail that class. And the student would have a academic record describing the incident. Or, at least, that would be what happens in my school.
So, what are the differences in Cruncher's case that makes people say that there is no evidence?
Sure, there isn't sufficient evidence to say 100% that he cheated. The problem is, it is virtually impossible to produce 100% certainty in evidence that someone cheated. Even when an athlete fails a drug test (which is probably the strongest evidence I can think of short of actually directly observing the cheating), they can deny it, saying, "Oh, I took substance X that is legal, but would cause me to fail the drug test. I just wasn't aware of the consequence." But in such a situation, the athlete would be condemned, if there were circumstantial evidence supporting it (in this case, perhaps the athlete started bulking up).
Now some people are going to say, it's an issue of having reasonable doubt, and that we need evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt, and having the stream on while playing Idra isn't sufficient enough. They would use the example of a real-life legal court, where criminal charges require (theoretically. in actual practice it varies quite a bit but such is life) that kind of evidence.
I feel like that is a poor point. Cheating isn't a criminal charge, and no one is accusing Cruncher of any crime. Just like how a teacher doesn't need evidence that stands up in court to accuse a student of cheating, as how an athlete may have an explanation for why he failed the drug test, or as how someone may be banned from a tournament because of maphacking outside of the tournament, none of these situations require 100% evidence.
So it seems that there is at least enough evidence to say that Cruncher probably cheated. I'm certainly willing to entertain the idea that Cruncher didn't cheat. In fact, I wouldn't be extremely surprised if he didn't cheat, and I certainly hope he didn't. However, this sort of evidence would be enough to compel a teacher in an academic environment, where such cheating would be serious business.
As it stands, ultimately it's not such a serious issue that there was a good chance that Cruncher stream cheated. After all, is it egregious cheating if someone streams while you play? On a random ladder game? And if it was, what would TL's response be? Obviously I don't think TL should be punishing Cruncher, but there are people who state that there is flat out no evidence for Cruncher stream cheated, and I disagree with that.
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Guys just drop it. Cruncher is 1-20 vs IdrA since the TSL, he was bound to get lucky in at least one of the games
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On May 07 2011 08:56 1Eris1 wrote:
Guys just drop it. Cruncher is 1-20 vs IdrA since the TSL, he was bound to get lucky in at least one of the games
Yeah everyone, just drop the fact that cruncher might have cheated or didn't simply because of their score against each other, that will settle everything. Don't worry everyone, 1Eris1 has this one figured out.
Do you think before you post?
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On May 07 2011 09:02 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:56 1Eris1 wrote:
Guys just drop it. Cruncher is 1-20 vs IdrA since the TSL, he was bound to get lucky in at least one of the games Yeah everyone, just drop the fact that cruncher might have cheated or didn't simply because of their score against each other, that will settle everything. Don't worry everyone, 1Eris1 has this one figured out. Do you think before you post?
Do you? The mods said to drop it, get over it. cruncher isn't going to win a tournament anytime soon, and thats what matters. Get over it, I don't think idra even cares about it anymore
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On May 07 2011 09:03 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:02 PanN wrote:On May 07 2011 08:56 1Eris1 wrote:
Guys just drop it. Cruncher is 1-20 vs IdrA since the TSL, he was bound to get lucky in at least one of the games Yeah everyone, just drop the fact that cruncher might have cheated or didn't simply because of their score against each other, that will settle everything. Don't worry everyone, 1Eris1 has this one figured out. Do you think before you post? Do you? The mods said to drop it, get over it. cruncher isn't going to win a tournament anytime soon, and thats what matters. Get over it, I don't think idra even cares about it anymore
My point was that you said that this allegation should be dropped because of their score together.
That's absolutely, 100%, dumb. My point stands.
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Am I the only one who doesn't understand why this is such a big deal? There are people in this page writing pages about the issue... This stems from a single ladder game. A LADDER GAME. Chill out.
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EPT
