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[TSL] Candidate Map Pool
February 9th, 2011 17:28 GMT
The TSL strives to be on the cutting edge of Starcraft 2 progaming in every area, from fair play and sportsmanship to the maps that are used in the tournament. Almost two months have passed since we originally announced the PokerStrategy.com TSL3 and a lot has changed since. We've seen a lot of debate about bringing in fresh maps for tournaments recently, notably since the GSL has opted to use it's own maps rather than rely on Ladder maps.
We have evaluated the current maps on offer and we feel that it is too early to be able to properly assess how each map is going to play out. As such, we have selected the eight maps that we feel will offer the best games for the fans and will continue to evaluate their balance as we learn more about them over the coming weeks. These eight maps are not the final map pool for the TSL, we will only be selecting the five or six best maps from this set of maps.
The main tournament of the TSL will use five or six maps from the following GSL/Blizzard map pool:
We realise how important a strong map pool is for a successful tournament. We don't want to rush into things and pick maps that may turn out to be imbalanced. Instead, we will gather as much information as possible to make an informed decision as to which maps are best suited for the TSL - both in terms of balance and spectator enjoyment. As soon as we reach a decision we will announce the maps that will be used in the tournament. We are announcing the candidate maps now so that players who have already qualified have ample time to prepare for the inclusion of some GSL maps.
We also think it is better for the community if similar maps are used across all major tournaments, and we hope that other tournament organizers will choose to have their map pools overlap somewhat with ours (and the GSL's). With a more unified map pool the players will be able to better focus their practice time and thus produce better games for the fans to enjoy. Obviously, things don't have to be identical, but the more similar the map pool - the better it is for the players and fans.
This TSL is sponsored by PokerStrategy.com, the world's largest poker school and community. With hundreds of Poker VODs and an assortment of learning material in 18 different languages, PokerStrategy.com offers the chance for aspiring Poker players to learn from a beginner to a professional level. Sign up using TL's referral link.
By signing up, you also enter the TSL3 Raffle, where you can win a 5-night trip to South Korea for 2 people to watch StarCraft live in person and tour the oGs-Liquid house.
Discuss with other fans in the TSL3 Forum.
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Wow, great stuff! Always love the change, will make for more macro based games 
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Woot! I'm glad the TSL is using the same new maps as the GSL
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Great call as usual. Couldn't be more hyped for TSL3 by now.
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I like the choices, perhaps besides scrap station (my T bias coming out here). I think its interesting to make such a bold request that other tournaments use the same maps (or overlapping ones at least). Bold, but definitely necessary, and for the better.
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Thanks TL for not letting us down! You made the best decision possible. Banning all the imbalanced maps and putting GSL maps in is just awesome for the spectators (bigger maps = more macro = longer games and less cheese) and the players. The only thing I hope is that Meta won't be in the final pool because of the close positions Ok, you got me, I'm a zerg 
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If you end up using Metalopolis, will you use the GSTL version in which you cannot block the ramp with 2 bunkers?
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Scrap station seems like the weakest selection of the candidates. Also, if you use Metalopolis, you should disable close spawns imo. Looks pretty solid though!
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When Plexa's in charge we can all put our feet up and relax! The best maps will come out I have fulll confi...
Ty btw.
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please
no
scrap station
please
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Nice to see TSL staying up to date!
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Yay for TSL! Wouldn't mind seeing scrap station get taken out though.
I would also like to know if the modified metal will be used.
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I dont agree with the choice of crossfire. When ever i play this map there are a lot of issues regarding mobility, think that this would highly limit the play that we will see.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 10 2011 02:41 [wh]_ForAlways wrote:
Scrap station seems like the weakest selection of the candidates. Also, if you use Metalopolis, you should disable close spawns imo. Looks pretty solid though!
Yep that would be the best idea. Hate the bloody wide ramp on scrap.
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I have to say I am disappointed to not see any ICCup maps in this pool. Considering that
- ESL now uses some of the ICCup maps, so many of the European players play them already, and
- the GSL players will have a huge practice advantage on the GSL maps,
the GSL players seem to be favored.
This pool forces the foreigners to adapt to the GSL maps, which they would normally not practice on, but does not force the GSL players to practice new maps. Which is kind of unfair.
I definitely agree that there shouldn't be too many different map pools overall, but since ESL already uses ICCup maps and MLG might do so as well (who knows), I don't see a reason to not include at least one of those maps.
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Scrap Station being considered? Really?
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I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : (
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Teamliquid, please stop being so amazing D:
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I like the idea of using new maps. I personally am not following GS(T)L at the moment so I don't know how the balanced the maps are, but I trust that TL has made the right decision. Having new maps is definitely something that keeps a game competitive.
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Sweet, I always hoped that TL would officially have a position on the map pool issue.
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You should just remove the blizzard maps and use some Iccup maps. Testbug <3
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
Well keeping scrap station is questionable,have you guys thought about testbug pawn or Neo Enigma?
If it means anything there are certainly a good amount of people who can vouch for my choices of maps instead of scrap station.
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Woud have liked if TSL had its on maps, cause a tournement this big is excatly where new maps can be implented and it would cause a lot of excitement.
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good decision. i hope we see 2 offical maps and 3 from the gstl
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They should get rid of scrap/shakuras imo, but obviously those are two of the three there that are the most tested. But even those have problems with balance a lot of times.
It's good TSL is doing this, I hope other tournaments follow the same idea.
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wow TL just keeps making good decision after good decision
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Really good decision.
But first, Scrap is no good map.
Second: I like the ICCup Maps much much more than the GSL Maps. GSL Maps seem for me like :"Make it as big as possible" while the Iccup Maps (especially the two ESL uses, Testbug and Pawn Re) are more well thought out. Especially for PvZ, they have small and big pathes, while i think that some of the GSL Maps will just favor Protoss more than now.
So while i think it was smart to pick the GSL maps for the Koreans, i would love the Iccup Maps really more.
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What is the thinking behind not including iccup-maps in the possible map-pool?
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On February 10 2011 02:51 uNiGNoRe wrote:
I have to say I am disappointed to not see any ICCup maps in this pool. Considering that
- ESL now uses some of the ICCup maps, so many of the European players play them already, and
- the GSL players will have a huge practice advantage on the GSL maps,
the GSL players seem to be favored.
This pool forces the foreigners to adapt to the GSL maps, which they would normally not practice on, but does not force the GSL players to practice new maps. Which is kind of unfair.
I definitely agree that there shouldn't be too many different map pools overall, but since ESL already uses ICCup maps and MLG might do so as well (who knows), I don't see a reason to not include at least one of those maps.
Agreed. I Personnaly find the ESL/ICCup maps better than the GSL maps . But even looking past my preferences, It it true that this is favoring the korean players too much IMHO. In europe, almost nobody practices on the GSL maps, because they are not included in any tournament. I would have liked TeamLiquid to at least include the ESL maps in the candidate mappool. It just feels like the european scene does not deserve any recognition.
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Get Iccup Testbug in there. Its simply the best non-blizzard map out there, and i agree thats not saying much but still it should be in. Make a poll, ask ESL players or simply play/watch some high level games on there. DO IT OR SOMEONE ELSE WILL
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looks good never played the gsl maps tho
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yeah go for tal'darim altar
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Nice to see the TSL keeping up with the current times, and what is best for the tournament.
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I guess good choices. Maybe only remove Scrap Station and bring the modified new Lost Temple (PTR)? Just a thaught.
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Scrap Station is not a universally poor map. If I were competing I might want it out just because it requires some specific prep, but as a viewer I think it spawns some interesting anomalies with the wide ramp and the weird land approaches.
Solid map pool though! The new GSL maps have looked pretty reasonable so far.
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I think the reason for not including iccup maps is that tournament maps that catch on will almost certainly be the GSL map pool. It kinda sucks for iccup as they have made a couple good maps, but it's not fair to the people playing to have to play maps from many different leagues imo.
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A lot of people hate on Scrap Station, but it's unique enough that it really should have a spot. Just because the same strategies don't work on that as other maps doesn't make it a bad map.
I'm also torn on the GSL redesigned versions of the maps versus the standard ones; blocking the ramp isn't possible on the gsl versions, but neither is walling the bottom of your own ramp either. Seems like it might be not worth messing with the ramp bottom, personally I'd rather just see no close positions allowed in spawning.
I'd also like to suggest including at least 1 ICCUP map, perhaps TestBug, into the map pool to get those guys some exposure and perhaps allow some of their maps to make their way into the GSL in the future
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The weakest map in that pool in my opinion is Metalopolis. Close positions is just utterly game breaking with too small a rush distance. The randomness of the spawn locations makes it completely unpredictable to prepare for and therefore we get cookie-cutter rush builds from close positions.
Scrap station is a great map in comparison.
It's one of the few maps where rushes from all races are tricky and we usually see longer games.
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Finaly some cool maps (metalopolis and scrap station is still piece of crap tho ).
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A couple of thoughts:
-On Tal'darim Altar it's very easy to attack the mineral line of the natural at 10:00 from the low ground just below. I don't know if this applies to other positions on the same map, but it kind of damages the balance of the map. Such layouts are disproportionately difficult for Zerg to defend in SC2 (see Steppes of War). Andromeda had a similar problem in BW, but only at the mineral-only naturals.
-It would be nice to consider the iccup maps that ESL uses. The iccup sc2 map team has expended a huge amount of effort over a very long period of time to create something nice for the community and help move the game forward. It's a bit of a shame to see their work excluded from consideration for use in the ultimate community event.
Would XNC and Metal be the GOM versions that disable the double Bunker block?
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Great map pool!
All these maps have shown great games. I don't think ICCup maps are a good choice as big tournaments are going to want to overlap with the GSL, which will never use ICCup maps, so good decision on TSL's part
If i had to get rid of 2 maps, as the post said you guys were looking for 5-6, I would remove:
Scrap Station: I think it gives a lot of great games but some people think its imbalanced so... eh, I'd also just like to see more of the new maps.
Shakuras Plateau: I actually really enjoy this map, but I'll admit, whenever I backdoor a zerg in tvz its kind of auto-win.
Alternatively I'd remove Tal'Darim Altar because its just so damn big lol. but even so, the games ive seen on that map have been really cool so I'd remove Shakuras first
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Hmm... I don't really know if I like this. I'm a big fan of tournament pools being the same as ladder pools. I suppose it's okay for TSL, but I'd rather not see these non-ladder maps in qualifiers.
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How about two iccup maps, preferably the ones ESL is using, two gsl maps, metalopolis(close positions disabled?) and xel'naga? Sounds fair.
I think no matter what the map pool will be an improvement so I'm very happy that you guys are thinking critically about this stuff. I am confident that Team Liquid will choose a solution which makes most people happy.
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On February 10 2011 03:01 avilo wrote:
They should get rid of scrap/shakuras imo, but obviously those are two of the three there that are the most tested. But even those have problems with balance a lot of times.
It's good TSL is doing this, I hope other tournaments follow the same idea.
Makes sense you would say this considering your common play style.
I've yet to hear good arguments in this thread why shakuras or scrap are imbalanced so hopefully they will stay in the Map Pool. Don't even know why T hates Scrap so much against Z considering how easy it is to punish Zerg getting a third.
Tho I'm far from the best person to discuss map balance I find those two the least imbalanced of all maps besides maybe Xel Naga :o.
Great news things are being taken in consideration and discussed before picking the definitive map pool! TL.net staying awesome :3
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Close position metalopolis should be disabled, game breaking and boring to watch imo
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Canada1637 Posts
Great choices, I'd probably remove Crossfire/Scrap and disable close spawn Metal!
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On February 10 2011 03:30 Adebisi wrote:
Great choices, I'd probably remove Crossfire/Scrap and disable close spawn Metal!
I agree with this.
I am not totally convinced that the GSL maps are great either, but whatever at least they are different. Kinda favors the koreans heavily though as they have a lot more practice partners to play with on them.
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WOOT IM HYPED AS... well, I'm hyped!
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On February 10 2011 03:30 Adebisi wrote:
Great choices, I'd probably remove Crossfire/Scrap and disable close spawn Metal!
Have you played corssfire or seen games on it? its an awesome very big map.
I think many dont like corssfire because it reminds them of JB at first look but trust be its nothing like that.
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I would take out Scrap Station for sure, and possibly Metalopolis too.
Anyway, TSL is the best tournament out there rightnow, and we can trust its going to be great.
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Id really like to see scrap switched witth an ICCUP map to mix things up.
Other than that, Im getting more excited for TSL3 by the day :D
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add testbug and remove metal or scrap and this would be a perfect map pool, love the gsl maps
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On February 10 2011 03:24 Wolf wrote:
Hmm... I don't really know if I like this. I'm a big fan of tournament pools being the same as ladder pools. I suppose it's okay for TSL, but I'd rather not see these non-ladder maps in qualifiers.
I would like to know if you still plan on being okay with this when Blizzard decides to stop updating the ladder pool (it will likely happen if history is anything to go by), or they never truly make a balanced pool. TL knows the importance of having a fresh map pool that promotes creative play but stays balanced. GOM has already done extensive testing on the maps and with progamer imput has found that the ones selected were adequate for their league. If through further play problems arise new versions will come out in a timely manner (there has already been multiple versions of these maps).
Overall anything is better than the current map pool that the vast majority of gamers feels is not up to current standards. I personally hope the TSL chooses to remove Metalopolis and SS. As a side note, I would love to see Testbug considered for the pool.
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Yeah, I agree with the idea to add 1 iCCup map, Testbug probably, because that leaves us with nice mix 2,3 and 4 player maps. Metalopolis is nice, but when you get close spawns, it gets ugly and Scrap is kinda odd, there is very little depth beyond the 2 base play because if somebody secures third, they usually have such a big advantage the game ends right there.
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The reason why we have posted this selection now is because we are of the opinion that players need to know their mappool plenty in advance. Ideally we would have announced our final 5 maps already, but because of developments in the scene we have decided to do it this way which gives us a little more time to look at the balance while players are still able to see which maps they should be practicing.
This means that there will not be other maps added as that defeats the point of giving players the map information with enough time in advance to practice.
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Would have liked 1 or 2 iccup maps as well. Will be interesting to see which ones are picked in the end.
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Crossfire and Crevasse are bad in my opinion.
It's still interesting to see TSL following GSL.
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No scrap station please. Protoss are terrible on that map.
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nice, we might actually see zergs after the first round :D
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Scrap station ramp means it's almost impossible to stop a 4 gate in pvp and all other strategies are significantly worse.
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Best maps for me are taldarim altar, crossfire, metal, xelnaga and shakuras.
but i dont think they gonna choose crossfire  hope dies last! gghf
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Ten Bucks says Scrap Station doesnt make the cut, yea GSL players are def gunna have an even bigger adv than they already do by playing on the maps that they are already mass gaming on :/ oh well I guess a foreigner could still win this but it seems like the deck is stacked against them. I liked it better when it was a foreigner only tournament.
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Nice choice in using gsl maps
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When I read the title, I was like "hurray, finally iccup maps in a major tournament".
Disappointing
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Seriously guys...stop complaining for once, Scrap is a common 4th map to pick (it would been have that versus maybe LT at best). This way it's a nice split 50/50 split of maps people have PRACTICED on, and maps they can start to really practice for.
Also, to the remote idea of disabling close spawns on Metal is pretty stupid imo, we already have basically 7 maps with no real rush times (Crossfire is possible), if close spawns were disabled you are essentially saying let's have absolutely no risk in the first few minutes. It's good we don't have 5-6 maps were you can get 2rax'd into oblivion, but the risk should always be there.
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On February 10 2011 04:01 delHospital wrote:When I read the title, I was like "hurray, finally iccup maps in a major tournament". Disappointing
For sure. Testbug is better then all these maps for sure, I expected at least that map to make it .
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Germany3367 Posts
Very good map choice!
I´m looking forward to this
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Scrap Station? Just go with iccup maps and it will be fine.
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scrapstation??? -_-, Zerg like always wins in that shit map
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How about adding ICCup's Neo Engma by prodiG ? I really like the map and would love to see some classy ownage on it.
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ICCup Pawn Re is a very coll map as well would love to see it or some other ICCup maps in TSL they are all pretty balanced and i think even better than some GSL maps for example Terminus Re or Crossfire Se
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Show some iCCup love pls. I understand Nazgul's concern but with players from across the globe, some fairness should be given to EU players who are already practicing on testbug/pawn re.
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On February 10 2011 04:09 JimSocks wrote:
Show some iccup love
I have to agree, Testbug seems like such a good map.
At least is should be considered.
Others are good as well.
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On February 10 2011 04:05 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 04:01 delHospital wrote:When I read the title, I was like "hurray, finally iccup maps in a major tournament". Disappointing For sure. Testbug is better then all these maps for sure, I expected at least that map to make it .
Agreed, I would 100% have expected Testbug instead of Scrap Station. I feel like the perception of SS being reasonably popular is only because players would rather be there than on, Jungle Basin or Steppes.
A three player map would be an awesome dynamic to the rest of the pool as well :/
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Is there a place where we can submit maps? i think a lot of our community maps could rival these.
edit: nvm thought it was for gsl :p
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Good call, TL. I can't wait to see who are the Korean Zerg invites.
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Great Opportunity to bump my thread in the custom map section click me.
It would be great if somebody who actually knows how to use the map editor fixes the "no replay saving" thing on the gsl maps. Its kinda hard to practice on them if you cant save your reps =).
I would have liked to see at least 1 ESL map though :/
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Really sad Testbug isn't in this. Map is really fun to play on. Damnit
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I agree with a lot of people disliking scrap. It pretty much never gets past 2base vs 2base because of the layout. You never really get those big 4+ vs 4+ base battles.
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I just want to commend Team Liquid for this.
This just another simple step that Blizzard or MLG could do to not only promote their tournaments, but improve them.
Why not just ask the community? It hypes the event, it costs almost nothing, and you might actually get useful feedback.
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I love all the hype for TSL, I'm so excited. However, have you considered that there are a lot of announcements for TSL and very few announcements about intentions to make an announcement?
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I say remove scrap station and metalopolis. First is way too weird and the second map because of the randomness of the close position spawn.
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Why all the hate on scrap? it makes for some interesting and different games imo.
Map pool will hopefully be:
Crevasse
Crossfire
Shakuras
Metal
Terminus
Scrap
at any rate, good to see some new maps, can't wait for the TSL!
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replace metalopolis with testbug and you have my dream map pool,
anyway great job, this is getting so awsome
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where's delta quadrant and lost temple
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On February 10 2011 04:51 Manimal_pro wrote:
where's delta quadrant and lost temple
Delta what? This map was replaced for a good reason you know...
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I love the addition of GSL maps, however like most I really think ICCup maps Pawn RE and Testbug should have been considered over Scrap Station or even Metal/Shakuras (Because of close position imbalances).
Anyway, other than that great choices and I am so, so excited for the TSL.
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since teamliquid is so communitydriven and -friendly i have no doubt that liquid is already thinking about adding Testbug and PawnRE. Very nice to see so many people liking these maps
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A little disappointed not to see any of the iCCup maps in there. I still strongly feel that Crossfire will present significant balance issues once players are more accustomed to it, Tal'Darim Altar is just boring.
I'm curious to hear about your selection process and I urge you to consider maps from the iCCup Map Pool. Some more notable maps:
iCCup Testbug
iCCup Pawn Re
iCCup Neo Enigma
All of these maps have been tested and approved by high-level players and I guarantee they will provide more interesting games than some of the maps in the suggested map pool. Macro maps are a nice change, but you can have a macro map without it being as big as Tal'Darim Altar is.
EDIT: Saw Nazgul's post.
...Damn.
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i am so, so, so excited for another tsl.
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Would love to see Tal'Darim in there. There's been some awesome games from teh GSTL on that map. Then again, I suppose that balance is the primary consideration, so we'll see.
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Great move by TL! When more and more tourneys use custom maps I hope Blizzard will eventually use them in ladder too.
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i think the map selection is a bit premature. you don't even know what maps will make it into gsl5, i don't think it's been comfirmed yet. should have definately considered iccup maps as well
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ya! more macro maps ^.^ except for scrap station -_-
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scrap station is to zerg as kulas ravine is to protoss
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On February 10 2011 05:18 ExoD wrote:
scrap station is to zerg as kulas ravine is to protoss
Not really, ZvP is actually not easy in scrap.
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Looks great.
BTW, considering many people don't think close pos on metal are balanced would you consider making a similar change to map like in Shakuras Plateau? It should be possible but I'm not sure if it's good. Just putting it out there for you to consider. Anyway, maps are great. I'm curious as to how will players adjust to maps not in ladder pool. Guessing koreans will be better prepared for GSL maps than the rest (they have more people to practice with).
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I don't understand what's the big issue with SS. Imho, Metalopolis is a lot less balanced and fun to play/watch, it's kinda all about the spawning
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On February 10 2011 02:53 mdma-_- wrote:
I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : (
GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit.
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Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL
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On February 10 2011 05:27 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 02:53 mdma-_- wrote:
I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : ( GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit.
Not necessarily. ESL has already begun using our maps which is the major player in the EU scene. So EU will be using iCCup. If NA follows suit (which I'm trying my best to make happen) then the GSL maps will only be significant in Korea.
On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watch the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL
Very well said.
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I played the new maps a bit and I think they are nice.
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Best tournament map pool yet, but would better if you replaced Crossfire SE and Scrap with with the community feels are the best ICCup maps. Your final pool could be 2xBlizz Maps, 2xGSL Maps, 2xICCup maps.
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Canada9720 Posts
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On February 10 2011 05:27 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 02:53 mdma-_- wrote:
I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : ( GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit.
Well there's no reason they couldn't use both. Sure the GSL is a really well known tournament and they have amazing map makers, but ICCup has really good map makers as well and out of the dozens of maps they've made since beta there's got to be at least one or two that are of a high enough quality to be used in the TSL. Blizzard won't recognize them, GOM won't recognize them, MLG hasn't recognized them yet... It's a damn shame. I've played on most of the ICCup maps and they are very high quality, and more importantly the map makers listen to the community and make balance and gameplay adjustments as needed (look at the revisions Pawn has undergone, it's amazing and more effort than anybody from Blizzard or GOM has put into any of the maps that pros are currently forced to play on).
I just want to see some 3 player maps. They were some of my favorites to watch in BW (Outsider, Medusa, Triathalon, nobody can say those maps weren't some of the best EVER from a spectator's point of view), and the best 3 player map for SC2 right now is Testbug.
So that why I recommended they look at Pawn and Testbug in my previous post. They are at least worth a look! Furthermore these maps are being used in the ESL, and Plexa himself said that tournament organizers should try their best to stabilize the map pool. Either of these maps would make amazing replacements for Scrap Station. I would just like to see them considered as contenders. After all, what if Tel'Darim or Terminus end up being horribly unbalanced somehow? What if every zerg in the tournament gets eliminated on Metalopolis or Shakuras close position spawns?
Anyway I'm done ranting, still stoked for the TSL no matter what maps are used.
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United States17042 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL
Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community.
Just a few problems that this brings up:
How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan.
The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder.
Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers.
Specifically regarding the iccup maps, they do look good and I've played on them, but the adoption in tournaments isn't as high as the GSL maps.
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On February 10 2011 05:43 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community. Just a few problems that this brings up: How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan.
Odd. We have hundreds of games by top top top NA and EU players on these maps, many pages of feedback notes, and every time an ESL EU event runs we have even more info.....
The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder.
On the other hand, new maps is what originally drew me to competitve BW (well that and Tasteless). I know if I were to show my mother SCII it's a lot harder to explain the 1,000,000 small things going on then the map. The map is decoration for fans, and for players a way to keep the game fresh.
Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers.
In the same token, what happens if the GSL maps suck? This is a new game and we are approaching new territory, some mistakes will be made. Fuck we used Sin Chupung Reyong (WORST SCII map ever) in some tournaments before we knew it sucked and received no backlash. Obviously not TSL sized tournaments but still the point stands.
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GHOSTCLAW makes the best point here. The GSL maps are much more reliable to use in a tournament since they've been professionally tested and are currently being tested.
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If Scrap Station is being considered then please use the edited/balanced version that fixes the distance between the 3 o'clock base and it's natural.
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On February 10 2011 05:50 Wolf wrote:
GHOSTCLAW makes the best point here. The GSL maps are much more reliable to use in a tournament since they've been professionally tested and are currently being tested.
How is that different then iCCup maps? Are the NA and EU pros not good enough to test these maps? If so then why are these same players allowed in the TSL?
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Diamond in another thread you posted that you guys had problems adding iccup maps to korean server (some kind of bug). Did you manage to add those maps finally?
If not it might be a main reason why the iccup maps arent considered for now.
Honesty i would kill for Test Bug to replace Metal or Scap. We saw some really interesting games on it in EU cups.
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On February 10 2011 05:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:50 Wolf wrote:
GHOSTCLAW makes the best point here. The GSL maps are much more reliable to use in a tournament since they've been professionally tested and are currently being tested. How is that different then iCCup maps? Are the NA and EU pros not good enough to test these maps? If so then why are these same players allowed in the TSL?
iCCup maps haven't had as much extensive testing. They're great maps when you look at them, and they're made by some of the best mapmakers in the world (if not the best), but then once they're made, they kinda sit in a hub (which here happens to be the custom maps thread) for a while before tournaments just decide to pick them up based on how they look and some random here and there testing of high level gamers. Then they're used in fairly small scale tournaments and become more popular that way (although this is fairly recent).
The GSL maps were made by mapmakers that are in a clan with professional gamers testing them constantly. The mapmakers for most of the new GSL maps were Prime members, and the others of course were made by Blizzard (and slightly modified by mapmaking teams). They've just had more extensive testing overall to make sure they were ready for the biggest SC2 league that currently exists. Tested by paid professionals. And now they're being used in a tournament (just ONE tournament), that has more spectators worldwide than any other, and is widely considered the most prestigious.
On a side note, I like most iCCup maps more than the Prime-made maps.. I'm just trying to give objective points!
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totally agree with diamond!
Iccup maps are really good, you guys should think about them too
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On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL
That's your loss. 13 players from Asia are being invited and I would assume most of are already in GSL code S. Then you have some of the foreigners that are in Code A (ret, huk) that could potentially also be in TSL3, so it simply makes sense to include GSL maps when a lot of the TSL3 players are in GSL.
That said it is unfortunate the map pool is final. I strongly believe Testbug is one of, if not the, best map out there. And with the constant iccup tournaments, showmatches and map promotions I think it's safe to say their maps have undergone the same level of balance testing the GSL maps have.
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United States17042 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:43 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community. Just a few problems that this brings up: How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan. Odd. We have hundreds of games by top top top NA and EU players on these maps, many pages of feedback notes, and every time an ESL EU event runs we have even more info..... Show nested quote +The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder. On the other hand, new maps is what originally drew me to competitve BW (well that and Tasteless). I know if I were to show my mother SCII it's a lot harder to explain the 1,000,000 small things going on then the map. The map is decoration for fans, and for players a way to keep the game fresh. Show nested quote +Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers. In the same token, what happens if the GSL maps suck? This is a new game and we are approaching new territory, some mistakes will be made. Fuck we used Sin Chupung Reyong (WORST SCII map ever) in some tournaments before we knew it sucked and received no backlash. Obviously not TSL sized tournaments but still the point stands.
I guess i'm not arguing that the iccup maps shouldn't be used, it's that the GSL maps are an easier call to make and defend. The Iccup maps are great, and tested in weekly casted matches that aren't as well covered as the GSL.
With that in mind, the size of the TSL, and the type of exposure it receives in korea (TSL 1 and TSL 2 were good, therefore TSL 3 will probably receive exposure on fomos and other forums as well), reinforces the argument about backlash and having GSL maps included. This time around, it's a worldwide pool that includes koreans, and many other people around the world. In addition "what happens if the gsl maps suck?" - the answer is that it goes back to GomTV. Also, this is a preliminary map list, but the point still stands, the TSL won't need to worry about it as much as if they used iccup maps. (Again, the argument is about why GSL maps are easier to defend as a choice if you're going to pick four new maps). Finally, the players will need to learn the GSL maps anyway (as they will be used next season), whereas it is unclear if the iccup maps will be used in a tournament as large as the GSL.
I understand that for the iccup maps to be used in larger tournaments, the maps should be used in the TSL as a stepping stone to acceptance into korean tournaments. I suppose that the teamliquid staff running TSL disagrees (I haven't done anything at all for TSL as far as I know), for all the reasons that I've mentioned.
As for the spectators and the maps, I strongly disagree on a personal level - I got into starcraft:bw because my friends played and followed progaming; when i started playing on the newer maps it was quite difficult to understand all the nuances of the new maps, and how they affected gameplay (6/5/4 fact push TvP to punish various third timings, dt/sair vs reaver/sair, etc.) This leads me to believe that understanding the maps is going to mean different things to different spectators, and the more widely known the maps are, the more people will feel that they get out of watching the TSL.
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Great idea, nice job guys
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On February 10 2011 06:03 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL That's your loss. 13 players from Asia are being invited and I would assume most of are already in GSL code S. Then you have some of the foreigners that are in Code A (ret, huk) that could potentially also be in TSL3, so it simply makes sense to include GSL maps when a lot of the TSL3 players are in GSL. That said it is unfortunate the map pool is final. I strongly believe Testbug is one of, if not the, best map out there. And with the constant iccup tournaments, showmatches and map promotions I think it's safe to say their maps have undergone the same level of balance testing the GSL maps have.
Not just the same level of balance testing, but significant levels of revision have occurred on almost all current ICCup maps. More revision than any other maps out there. Many people think that just because they're not "official Blizzard maps" or "official GSL maps" that somehow they aren't good enough for high level, large tournaments. Well if the ICCup maps aren't good enough, no foreign community made maps will EVER be good enough. I really feel for the ICCup team, they pour everything they've got into making their maps top of the line and nobody gives them any credit.
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Crossfire SE is a million times worse than Scrap Station ever was.
The main problem with it is that there are just so many ramps that allow anyone to easily split the map by setting up an almost impenetrable defensive position, not to mention literally every area in the map can be walled off with no more than three force fields. It sets up a whole number of balance problems that will limit numbers of options Terran and Protoss can go for while almost automatically killing Zerg - I haven't even touched on the fact that the third is so far away from the natural.
I'm a Protoss player and it's easy to see how easily Colossi would dominate on this map if one simply plays defensively on Sentry based play.
I don't have many complaints about the other maps, though. Scrap Station isn't great but I'd take it over Crossfire any day.
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On February 10 2011 06:01 Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On February 10 2011 05:50 Wolf wrote:
GHOSTCLAW makes the best point here. The GSL maps are much more reliable to use in a tournament since they've been professionally tested and are currently being tested. How is that different then iCCup maps? Are the NA and EU pros not good enough to test these maps? If so then why are these same players allowed in the TSL? iCCup maps haven't had as much extensive testing. They're great maps when you look at them, and they're made by some of the best mapmakers in the world (if not the best), but then once they're made, they kinda sit in a hub (which here happens to be the custom maps thread) for a while before tournaments just decide to pick them up based on how they look and some random here and there testing of high level gamers. Then they're used in fairly small scale tournaments and become more popular that way (although this is fairly recent). The GSL maps were made by mapmakers that are in a clan with professional gamers testing them constantly. The mapmakers for most of the new GSL maps were Prime members, and the others of course were made by Blizzard (and slightly modified by mapmaking teams). They've just had more extensive testing overall to make sure they were ready for the biggest SC2 league that currently exists. Tested by paid professionals. And now they're being used in a tournament (just ONE tournament), that has more spectators worldwide than any other, and is widely considered the most prestigious. On a side note, I like most iCCup maps more than the Prime-made maps.. I'm just trying to give objective points!
Ok I believe you may be misinformed. We don't just make maps and let them do their thing. We highlight them multiple times a week in iCCup events, including the professional ones. We look constantly at the balance based on the current game state. Thus why we released the refined pool. We also consider changes to the maps based off player feedback as proven by the 4th base Testbug magically gained based off said feedback.
I don't get however how you can say these have more testing? Last I checked they have only been trying them out for a month or so with Gisardo and GOM. We have been doing this since the day the map making thing came out. Also we have a staff of 10 or so members of a team dedicated to nothing other then mapmaking.
On February 10 2011 06:04 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On February 10 2011 05:43 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote:
Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo.
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community. Just a few problems that this brings up: How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan. Odd. We have hundreds of games by top top top NA and EU players on these maps, many pages of feedback notes, and every time an ESL EU event runs we have even more info..... The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder. On the other hand, new maps is what originally drew me to competitve BW (well that and Tasteless). I know if I were to show my mother SCII it's a lot harder to explain the 1,000,000 small things going on then the map. The map is decoration for fans, and for players a way to keep the game fresh. Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers. In the same token, what happens if the GSL maps suck? This is a new game and we are approaching new territory, some mistakes will be made. Fuck we used Sin Chupung Reyong (WORST SCII map ever) in some tournaments before we knew it sucked and received no backlash. Obviously not TSL sized tournaments but still the point stands. I guess i'm not arguing that the iccup maps shouldn't be used, it's that the GSL maps are an easier call to make and defend. The Iccup maps are great, and tested in weekly casted matches that aren't as well covered as the GSL. With that in mind, the size of the TSL, and the type of exposure it receives in korea (TSL 1 and TSL 2 were good, therefore TSL 3 will probably receive exposure on fomos and other forums as well), reinforces the argument about backlash and having GSL maps included. This time around, it's a worldwide pool that includes koreans, and many other people around the world. In addition "what happens if the gsl maps suck?" - the answer is that it goes back to GomTV. Also, this is a preliminary map list, but the point still stands, the TSL won't need to worry about it as much as if they used iccup maps. (Again, the argument is about why GSL maps are easier to defend as a choice if you're going to pick four new maps). Finally, the players will need to learn the GSL maps anyway (as they will be used next season), whereas it is unclear if the iccup maps will be used in a tournament as large as the GSL. I understand that for the iccup maps to be used in larger tournaments, the maps should be used in the TSL as a stepping stone to acceptance into korean tournaments. I suppose that the teamliquid staff running TSL disagrees (I haven't done anything at all for TSL as far as I know), for all the reasons that I've mentioned. As for the spectators and the maps, I strongly disagree on a personal level - I got into starcraft:bw because my friends played and followed progaming; when i started playing on the newer maps it was quite difficult to understand all the nuances of the new maps, and how they affected gameplay (6/5/4 fact push TvP to punish various third timings, dt/sair vs reaver/sair, etc.) This leads me to believe that understanding the maps is going to mean different things to different spectators, and the more widely known the maps are, the more people will feel that they get out of watching the TSL.
So if the thing is that you have someone to blame if the maps end up sucking, why not blame iCCup TV if the maps end up sucking? Which they won't, because we test the living shit out of them and get direct feedback from the best non koreans in the world.
And soon, we will have feedback from the top Korean players....
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I imagine two main reasons (at least) drive TL's choices here.
1. Theoretical balance is no match for heavy testing over time. That's why the Blizzard maps are there.
2. For a tournament as large as the TSL, you have to play it somewhat safe. I imagine they want to add new maps, but when iCCup maps haven't been seen in major tournaments so they'd be a risky choice. Sure, the new GSL maps haven't been tested all that heavily either, but at least this way they can make the tournament more accessible for the 13 invites from Asia. ESL's choice of a couple iCCup maps is much less influential on the practice scene than GSL's unveiling of its future pool.
The new GSL maps will also have seen greater tournament testing by the time the TSL pool will be finalized, so TL can have more confidence that they will have sufficient data to know which ones to cut.
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I would say a 50/50 mix of GSL maps + Iccup maps would be the best map pool. No one needs Lame Temple , or crap station (c wut I did thar?) anyways, We've played those maps enough on ladder, and watched enough games on them.
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I love it! Thanks for incorporating the GSL maps. Hopefully the other tournaments will follow suit.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
These are the maps that have been chosen. If you want to talk about other potential maps, please do it outside of this thread.
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United States17042 Posts
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Remove Crap Station and include the new Lost Temple and we are good to go :D
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On February 10 2011 06:07 Ironical wrote:
Crossfire SE is a million times worse than Scrap Station ever was.
The main problem with it is that there are just so many ramps that allow anyone to easily split the map by setting up an almost impenetrable defensive position, not to mention literally every area in the map can be walled off with no more than three force fields. It sets up a whole number of balance problems that will limit numbers of options Terran and Protoss can go for while almost automatically killing Zerg - I haven't even touched on the fact that the third is so far away from the natural.
I'm a Protoss player and it's easy to see how easily Colossi would dominate on this map if one simply plays defensively on Sentry based play.
I don't have many complaints about the other maps, though. Scrap Station isn't great but I'd take it over Crossfire any day.
You clearly havent played Crossfire SE, yes most of the places on the map can be walled of with 2-3 FF's but the map is made so its very easy to come with an army from more then one side. The only place one the map that is very hard to attack a protoss army is where there are 2 ramps to a high ground but there is no reson you should attack a protoss there as zerg since they cant hit any base from there.
I think its because it looks smaller then it is on the pic and many havent played it.
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On February 10 2011 06:22 Kennigit wrote:
These are the maps that have been chosen. If you want to talk about other potential maps, please do it outside of this thread.
The thread name is candidate map pool... Talking about ups and downs of the maps and what maps should be in or be replaced should be done in this thread.
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Scrap station looks like the weakest candidate among the pool. I think one of crossfire and xel'naga caverns will go out with scrap but this is just me. Again, this is just me but i think half gsl half iccup maps would make a better environment because of the reason stated by someone in first page. Gsl maps are as good as iccup ones if not better ofc.
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On February 10 2011 06:33 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:22 Kennigit wrote:
These are the maps that have been chosen. If you want to talk about other potential maps, please do it outside of this thread. The thread name is candidate map pool... Talking about ups and downs of the maps and what maps should be in or be replaced should be done in this thread.
I think you should read the op before posting... there are 8 Candidate maps but they will only use 5 or 6 in the TSL.
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Already the korean bias? I understand the reasons behind it so I'm not arguing that this is a mistake, but if any tournament that matters was ever going to use a foreign map it would've been TSL. I think this solidly sets the precedent bw had about foreign maps in stone. RIP iccup mapping team
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Awesome map pool. I personally would remove Xel Naga, because of the wide nat, and Crossfire/Scrap. I like that on four player maps, usually, the player can choose to attack a certain expansion. On two player maps, unless you're dropping, it's almost guaranteed where and when you're going to hit: fourth, third, nat, main.
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Well then foreigners better get to practicing on the GSL maps, and plus the Koreans will have a bigger Latency disadvantage, so the slightly more map knowledge (which is negligible) evens out.
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Cool. Personally I kinda hope Xel'Naga doesn't make it. It's a good map, just seen soooooo many matches on it. Guess we should keep our fingers crossed Blizzard gets on it and adds a few of these to the ladder as well.
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I like it, nice job TL. Really looking forward to some (more) serious competition on these things.
As for the other argument.. you're splitting the scene either way and this is a more internationally focussed tournament. Let's just see how both sets work out and take the ones that work best next, instead of the ones made by whoever.
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If metalopolis is chosen, I hope there's a policy to remake a game when close spawns occur .
All in all though, excellent choices for potential maps.
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On February 10 2011 06:32 TaKemE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:07 Ironical wrote:
Crossfire SE is a million times worse than Scrap Station ever was.
The main problem with it is that there are just so many ramps that allow anyone to easily split the map by setting up an almost impenetrable defensive position, not to mention literally every area in the map can be walled off with no more than three force fields. It sets up a whole number of balance problems that will limit numbers of options Terran and Protoss can go for while almost automatically killing Zerg - I haven't even touched on the fact that the third is so far away from the natural.
I'm a Protoss player and it's easy to see how easily Colossi would dominate on this map if one simply plays defensively on Sentry based play.
I don't have many complaints about the other maps, though. Scrap Station isn't great but I'd take it over Crossfire any day. You clearly havent played Crossfire SE, yes most of the places on the map can be walled of with 2-3 FF's but the map is made so its very easy to come with an army from more then one side. The only place one the map that is very hard to attack a protoss army is where there are 2 ramps to a high ground but there is no reson you should attack a protoss there as zerg since they cant hit any base from there.
You clearly do not have eyeballs. There's absolutely way to stop a Protoss from simply playing defensively and creating a deathball on this map. None. First, of course it's possible to flank, as is possible on any map, but that's made extremely less effective by the fact that A) the avenues of attack have starting points that diverge very far from where you would attack to flank, essentially splitting your army for very long periods of time, then B) the reason why forcefields would be so powerful is that it would be entirely possible to simply forcefield off a flanking army.
Of course that's possible on any map, but when all the paths are this narrow, it's a million times easier.
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Love all the maps excluding Crap station. Sigh, i guess I better un-veto it. Honestly, the only time i managed to win on the map was a few times with lucky void ray rushes.
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scrap station and tal darim altar should be removed and you should have a super solid and balanced map pool, and i have played on both iccup/gsl maps and the gsl maps are much better.
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Awesome news! I would get rid of Scrap and Crossfire. It would pain me to get rid of another one of those maps though :D
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No iCCup maps? I'm kinda surprised by that. I think some of them would be a better choice than scrap station.
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Nice stuff, thanks for not being mindless like some other tournaments and putting in steppes/delta/basin ect. into the map pool.
This is pretty much a solid statement to all tournaments to stop using the broken maps.
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Nice maps but I'd like to see more iCCup maps and Lost Temple in there, but still very good maps :D
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Definetly:
Metalopolis
Xel Naga
Terminus Re
Shakuras Plateau
Definetly not:
scrap station
and i dislike the others 2 but i guess they are decent. But why only this maps? there are great maps like Prodig's Valhalla or Neo Enigma
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could n mod warn these guys here who are talking shit? thats annoying pls i dont want them to be in the same room with me..
Good idea to only take the best 5-6 maps.
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Scrap station would be a poor choice...as any (and almost every) PvP, there will be a 4 gate or proxy on that map.
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Calgary25968 Posts
On February 10 2011 06:54 Ironical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:32 TaKemE wrote:On February 10 2011 06:07 Ironical wrote:
Crossfire SE is a million times worse than Scrap Station ever was.
The main problem with it is that there are just so many ramps that allow anyone to easily split the map by setting up an almost impenetrable defensive position, not to mention literally every area in the map can be walled off with no more than three force fields. It sets up a whole number of balance problems that will limit numbers of options Terran and Protoss can go for while almost automatically killing Zerg - I haven't even touched on the fact that the third is so far away from the natural.
I'm a Protoss player and it's easy to see how easily Colossi would dominate on this map if one simply plays defensively on Sentry based play.
I don't have many complaints about the other maps, though. Scrap Station isn't great but I'd take it over Crossfire any day. You clearly havent played Crossfire SE, yes most of the places on the map can be walled of with 2-3 FF's but the map is made so its very easy to come with an army from more then one side. The only place one the map that is very hard to attack a protoss army is where there are 2 ramps to a high ground but there is no reson you should attack a protoss there as zerg since they cant hit any base from there. You clearly do not have eyeballs. There's absolutely way to stop a Protoss from simply playing defensively and creating a deathball on this map. None. First, of course it's possible to flank, as is possible on any map, but that's made extremely less effective by the fact that A) the avenues of attack have starting points that diverge very far from where you would attack to flank, essentially splitting your army for very long periods of time, then B) the reason why forcefields would be so powerful is that it would be entirely possible to simply forcefield off a flanking army. Of course that's possible on any map, but when all the paths are this narrow, it's a million times easier.
This is great theorycrafting, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate this problem for a competent player.
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Get rid of scrap station for sure, and the second worst in my opinion would be Metalopolis, simply because of the possibility of close spawns.
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Pretty sure Scrap Station doesn't belong in that list
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While I agree with the general selection of maps, I'm very disappointed to see that no ICCup maps were considered. This would have been the perfect opportunity for TL to help ICCup gain their footing in the tournament maps scene, something which they undoubtedly deserve.
But everything that can be said about that has already been said.
Are Metalopolis, Scrap Station and Xel'naga Caverns considered for inclusion in the original Blizzard version or in a modified version (e.g. GSL / custom)?
I actually like the inclusion of Scrap Station, it has a different feel to it compared with the other maps, maybe comparable with close air positions on Metalopolis. Makes for some interesting games to watch.
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Would love to see some iCCup maps in there. Actually I am disliking the Official Blizzard maps at the moment. I have just played/seen to many matches of it already. It would be nice if we can get a nice mix of iCCup and GSL maps.
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Remove scrap and the map line up will be superb.
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i always expect iccup.diamond to show up whenever maps are mentioned. haven't been disappointed yet.
i agree with ghostclaw. iccup.diamond would be benefit from some humility that there are at least some tournament organizers that are accepting iccup's amateur (as in not being contracted/paid) maps.
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My money is on Shakura's Plateau and Scrap Station being removed from the map pool. I think "Refined Scrap Station" would have a better chance, but as-is, has a few too many positional flaws for it to be seriously considered.
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How is scrap station making the map pool every week.
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Don't worry! It just wouldn't be TSL without seemingly insurmountable map imbalance. Wuthering Heights? wololo
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Honestly I don't like metalopolis in this pool. You are trying your best to eliminate horrid imbalances in maps but the close position metal is like trying to play on steppes without a decent 3rd base option. If your players say the 33% chance is small enough for them, then cool. I don't consider it a shoo-in whatsoever.
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On February 10 2011 07:54 ALang wrote:
How is scrap station making the map pool every week.
I have no clue. They used scrap station in the last 2 GSL qualifiers and look at the # of protoss in code A. It's terrible. Protoss need a third base to be competitive, and that map offers no safe place against drops/banshees and is impossible to stop a 7:20 stim timing push without overly committing to cannons and sacrificing map control. The only viable protoss strategies on that map are 4 gate or proxy gate. Scrap station should have been removed months ago. This map was ok for protoss with beta void rays with 7 range and huge level 2 attack in order to get a lead, but without void rays, protoss can never leave their base, ever without leaving themselves completely vulnerable.
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I would like to see all of the maps in the ladder pool except scrap station. Scrap is a very bad choise
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I just checked GSL, pvt is 8-21 since season 1 and 1-8 last season on scrap station.
Protoss has a 38% win rate overall in pvt and a 28% on that map in gsl.
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This map pool seems heavily in favor of the Korean Invites, who play on the GSL maps all the time now.
Europeans are kinda fucked. They're learning ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re. Probably nobody will take even more extra time to practice GSL maps for a single tournament.
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On February 10 2011 08:20 darmousseh wrote:
I just checked GSL, pvt is 8-21 since season 1 and 1-8 last season on scrap station.
Protoss has a 38% win rate overall in pvt and a 28% on that map in gsl.
Thats counting season 1. Game changes alot sense then.
Last like 12 games pvt in GSTL toss has won all I think pvt lol.
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On February 10 2011 08:22 darkwon wrote:
This map pool seems heavily in favor of the Korean Invites, who play on the GSL maps all the time now.
Europeans are kinda fucked. They're learning ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re. Probably nobody will take even more extra time to practice GSL maps for a single tournament.
So you realy think ppl from EU who qualified for TSL the biggest online SC2 tournament ever is going to practice maps like ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re used in small tournaments with smaller prize pool over the next month?.... get real pls.
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On February 10 2011 08:25 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:20 darmousseh wrote:
I just checked GSL, pvt is 8-21 since season 1 and 1-8 last season on scrap station.
Protoss has a 38% win rate overall in pvt and a 28% on that map in gsl. Thats counting season 1. Game changes alot sense then. Last like 12 games pvt in GSTL toss has won all I think pvt lol.
Protoss are winning a lot in GSTL, but there hasn't been a single pvt on scrap yet. Protoss are winning by 2 basing on large maps or doing cool new strategies
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On February 10 2011 08:27 TaKemE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:22 darkwon wrote:
This map pool seems heavily in favor of the Korean Invites, who play on the GSL maps all the time now.
Europeans are kinda fucked. They're learning ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re. Probably nobody will take even more extra time to practice GSL maps for a single tournament. So you realy think ppl from EU who qualified for TSL the biggest online SC2 tournament ever is going to practice maps like ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re used in small tournaments with very small prize pool over the next month?.... get real pls.
ESL is not really a small tournament, they`re doing small weekly cups but also the biggest ones in Europe (IEM).
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Its nice to see more and more events gradually refreshing their map pools. GG.
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scrap station is a bad choice..
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Interesting how the iCCup maps aren't being considered, though I guess that might be reasonable considering their exposure to not be too huge at this point, especially compared to the GSTL maps. Perhaps TSL4 will be using iCCup maps.
Nevertheless, all these maps look quite good as candidates. Heck, I even like Scrap Station despite all the haters out there. At least it seems like a better option than Lost Temple, which doesn't seem to be a candidate.
I really hope at least one of the GSTL maps become official TSL maps. The games that I've seen from them have usually been nothing short of phenomenal compared to the current Blizzard map pool.
It's awesome seeing this first step towards the coveted "unified map pool."
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On February 10 2011 08:29 darkwon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:27 TaKemE wrote:On February 10 2011 08:22 darkwon wrote:
This map pool seems heavily in favor of the Korean Invites, who play on the GSL maps all the time now.
Europeans are kinda fucked. They're learning ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re. Probably nobody will take even more extra time to practice GSL maps for a single tournament. So you realy think ppl from EU who qualified for TSL the biggest online SC2 tournament ever is going to practice maps like ICCup Testbug and Pawn Re used in small tournaments with very small prize pool over the next month?.... get real pls. ESL is not really a small tournament, they`re doing small weekly cups but also the biggest ones in Europe (IEM).
Keyword: small. I don't think IEM is hosting a major event in sometime so it shouldn't be a problem for most NA/EU players. Likewise if you consider the Korean perspective they have to practice maps for a league that has games 5 days a week for a massive prize pool. It would simply be unfair to the majority of people in the TSL3.
Interesting how the iCCup maps aren't being considered, though I guess that might be reasonable considering their exposure to not be too huge at this point, especially compared to the GSTL maps. Perhaps TSL4 will be using iCCup maps.
I don't see exposure being the problem. iCCup has been hosting tournaments for their maps for months now and a lot of work has gone into them. ESL has already started to use their maps and if the administrators of MLG have any brains they will likely start using a separate map pool as well. There may be other reasons, but I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) a large reason GSL maps have been chosen is simply because the majority of participants are in the GSL.
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On February 10 2011 08:43 TT1 wrote:
scrap station is a bad choice..
Maybe you can elaborate for the community since your opinion is held in much higher regard than the random community members. Yay for TT1!
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I would take out Scrap, Meta and I'm undecided on the last.
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I kinda miss Lost Temple, but maybe too many consider it imbalanced, dunno actually but i just miss it. I don't feel like TL or TSL should completely copy (in this case) GSLs map-pool, you TL probably know best what u want in your turnament, so then go get it. and if you want our thoughts pls post some links so that everybody can check the maps out in detail. and I also feel like scrap-station is a really cheesy map, but even that can be entertaining, i just hope you choose it for the right reasons
all the best, and it's good to see new maps
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holy shit!!! a good map pool!!!!
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On February 10 2011 06:15 Ryalnos wrote:
The new GSL maps will also have seen greater tournament testing by the time the TSL pool will be finalized, so TL can have more confidence that they will have sufficient data to know which ones to cut.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Right now there are the Go4Sc2 Cup (Sunday; 200€ for first; monthly final 500€), Sennheiser Cup ( 16 weeks on Saturday; 100€ for first; final with 3400€ prize pool), Viking Cup (Thursday; 50€ for first) and Cyborg Cup (Wednesday; 200€ for first) being held weekly, with the top level EU players attending and they all use iCCup Pawn Re and iCCup Testbug.
And as it seems more tournaments will follow.
So since this first February week, iCCup is not some kind of underground thing any more. There are part of ESL's map pool and part of every European top player's tournament life.
So they are tested in an extremely competetive enviroment by top level players right now and they will tell you whether they suck or not if you ask them in some weeks.
Opposed to that TSL3 might be the only reason players from EU have to practise on GSL maps at all.
I had nothing to do with SC:BW, so I might not be used to this as others, but this already feels like Korean bias to me. We have no idea if their maps are better (and I doubt that very, very much. it seems to me they just make their maps bigger, not better) and the iCCup Map Making Team is part of the foreign community (so we can actually communicate with them!) and yet you just ignore their hard work.
I wish my word was more important, as a player I'm too bad and inexperienced to be an authority for balance. So I really wish some EU players (like Morrow) will tell you that it would be totally reasonable to at least consider iCCup Pawn Re and iCCup Testbug.
edit: just realized how angry it makes me that so many people in the foreign scene are so focused on Korea and GSL , that they always ignore that we have players and especially mapmakers of equal skill.
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I urge you all to consider a change to Metalopolis. We've seen some really great games on that map, but almost everytime people spawn close positions, we get the same rehearsed 1/2base play that ends prematurely. One easy change that would drastically improve the average quality of games on Metalopolis is to prevent two players from spawning close positions. There's already precedent for this with Shakuras Plateau, so it's not unheard of in the community.
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I think everyone is missing some key points.
The TSL is going to be the largest online starcraft tournament to date (as far as I am aware. Could be wrong). In my opinion, this event is not the place to use maps that haven't seen major mainstream use. ESL weekly cups and Iccup map series events do not make it internationally mainstream.
Though the maps may be good and played by a few pros in ICCUP map series events, the majority of tip top players have never seen the ICCUP maps before. It would seem a little silly to organize one of the largest starcraft tournaments ever and then use maps nobody has really seen (relatively speaking).
"Hey MC, Fruitdealer, nestea, MVP, boxer, nada, come play in this huge ass international tournament to decide the best player in the world. The fans will go nuts! But lets play on maps you've never seen before and most of the viewership has never seen before because it's the output of a north american map team! No, they aren't necessarily better than GSL maps, but they have cool things like expansions with no gas that you have absolutely no practice dealing with."
Whether it's nice to hear or not, the ICCUP maps are not as mainstream as the new GSL maps. That's not to say they aren't great maps, but I think the TSL admins made the right decision in selecting the potential maps.
I urge you all to consider a change to Metalopolis. We've seen some really great games on that map, but almost everytime people spawn close positions, we get the same rehearsed 1/2base play that ends prematurely. One easy change that would drastically improve the average quality of games on Metalopolis is to prevent two players from spawning close positions. There's already precedent for this with Shakuras Plateau, so it's not unheard of in the community.
On the topic of the options we've been given, i'd really like to echo this statement as well.
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I'm just happy to see new maps! If they are not balanced i hope they get thrown out before the real deal starts
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On February 10 2011 10:03 SiguR wrote:
I think everyone is missing some key points.
The TSL is going to be the largest online starcraft tournament to date (as far as I am aware. Could be wrong). In my opinion, this event is not the place to test maps that haven't seen major mainstream use. No, an iccup map series is not main stream use.
Please read my post two posts above yours.I can do the exact same thing you just did with players like Mana, Kas, White-Ra, TLO, Morrow, Sjow,Kas,... who all play in the cups I mentioned on a regular basis and know iCCup Pawn Re and iCCup Testbug, but probably never play GSL maps.
And I'd consider maps used by ESL pretty mainstream.
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I'd go with Crevasse, Crossfire, Shakuras, Tal'Darim, and XNC if 5. Not sure which of the remaining I would pick if 6.
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On February 10 2011 10:03 SiguR wrote:
"Hey MC, Fruitdealer, nestea, MVP, boxer, nada, come play in this huge ass international tournament to decide the best player in the world. The fans will go nuts! But lets play on maps you've never seen before and most of the viewership has never seen before"
"Hey Kas, Naniwa, White-Ra, TLO, Fenix, GoOdy, come play in this huge ass tournament to decide the best player in the world. To make it fair we decided to use standard Korean maps. You may have seen them in GOMTV. Good Luck!"
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On February 10 2011 10:09 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 10:03 SiguR wrote:
I think everyone is missing some key points.
The TSL is going to be the largest online starcraft tournament to date (as far as I am aware. Could be wrong). In my opinion, this event is not the place to test maps that haven't seen major mainstream use. No, an iccup map series is not main stream use.
Please read my post two posts above yours.I can do the exact same thing you just did with players like Mana, Kas, White-Ra, TLO, Morrow, Sjow,Kas,... who all play in the cups I mentioned on a regular basis and know iCCup Pawn Re and iCCup Testbug, but probably never play GSL maps. And I'd consider maps used by ESL pretty mainstream.
So in a choice of which league to use the maps from, are you really trying to fault team liquid for going with the maps from the biggest league in the world? They had to pick between IcCup maps, GSL maps, and making their own maps. They can't really just pick and choose from each. Asking players to practice maps from the ESL, the GSL, and the ladder pool for a one time tournament would be unreasonable. Nobody is saying IcCup maps being used would be the end of the world, but I can't see any argument that makes them a better pick than the GSL maps.
Most likely scenario is that they are just as good as the GSL maps. No better and no worse. If that's the case, why is anyone making a fuss? It's not like they are making every series have steppes of war for the first map. We're probably going to see excellent starcraft whether it's on the GSL maps or the ICCUP maps. It's team liquid's prerogative and I think they made the safer choice.
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will be awesome to see a mix of gsl and blizzard maps, both old and new, in the same tournament
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Knowing that a likely scenario is that either 1 or 2 of the maps in the pool will be from GSL, I would like to hear a comment from an actual high level player about what he thinks about it. How big of a disadvantage is he at if other players have had more practice on the map than him? Is this tournament-breaking, does it make him less likely to compete?
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Imso, I think scrap station should be scrapped (pun intended), and replaced with either an ICCup map or some other map. It is seriously difficult for protoss to be competitive on the map. Sure, zerg players and possibly terran players like it, but the wide ramp and hard-to-get third make it a really tough map for protoss to play a good macro game on.
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Good call.
No scrap station plz :X
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Awesome, I've been loving Tal'darim Altar and Crossfire, haven't seen too much of the other new maps though
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Get rid of crevasse/crossfire and put in ICCup Testbug/LoTemp/ICCup Pawn Re or something
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On February 10 2011 11:16 gogogadgetflow wrote:
Get rid of crevasse/crossfire and put in ICCup Testbug/LoTemp/ICCup Pawn Re or something
dude crevasse is like the best GSL map
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Please don't use scrap station
The rest of the maps are indeed worth considering. Maybe one iccup map would be nice, too.
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Some of you keep missing the point. These are the maps they will be selecting from. Stop recommending maps because it won't happen this TSL.
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i hope the meta youre considering has teh same spawn restrictions as shakuras.
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scrap station should be remove
Thanks for using GSL maps
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Ideal selection: Shakuras/Xel'Naga with neutral supply depot and ramps, and 3 or 4 GSL maps (my preference being no Crossfire.)
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Awesome choice of maps. I really hope we'll see less and less of Jungle Basin and Steppes in the future. Thumbs up
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I think you should scrap crapstation.
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... no Lost Temple?? aww i loved that map... but then again I play terran... lol
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I'm so tired of seeing Scrap Station and Metalopolis. Xel'naga Caverns isn't too bad, imo.
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Sry not complaining but...
crap station
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You guys never fail to show how much better of an event you guys run than everyone else. What other huge tournament organizer involves the community on figuring out what competitive and balanced maps should be in the map pool. So awesome.
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No iccup maps is really not good imo. ESL makes you of 2 Iccup maps, why not ALSO use those 2? bit of ashame really...
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just get rid of Metalopolis and ScrapStation and you are set to go
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Scrap Station is my second fav map next to Caverns, but if its that shitty for toss then get rid of it.
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On February 10 2011 10:10 Dromar wrote:
I'd go with Crevasse, Crossfire, Shakuras, Tal'Darim, and XNC if 5. Not sure which of the remaining I would pick if 6. Agree 100% with this. Would make a pretty sweet lineup.
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Well this seems great. Also, as a P player I have no qualms with Scrap other than with the stupidly large ramps. Many of the areas are quite small, funnelling the Zerg and allowing easy forcefields. Sure they can take a fast FE safely, but I can just delay that with a pylon.
Wouldn't mind iCCup maps like Match Point being thrown into the mix, but that might be a bit much for the new players to learn, better to ease them into things.
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The maps can't ALL be the same. Scrap will be interesting and as usual, entertaining to see the weird games that will come out of it.
On February 10 2011 02:53 mdma-_- wrote:
I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : (
GSL maps aren't that bad but yeah Iccup maps are epic. Overall, I like the map pool.
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I would have loved to see some ICCup Maps
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good to see they're using GSL maps also
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Seems alot better than the ladder pool :D but id love to see some iccup maps.
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Hm, feel that scrap is the weakest map of them closing in by a - if not changed - close posi meta (which should be prevented just like in shakuras to make it a good map)
crossfire seems not too good, dunno why but it feels kinda awkward playing on it.
crevazze is an awesome map =)
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Great choice.
I think there's no need to complain a lot about scrap's ramp, Crevasse has the same with the destructible rocks. :p
Tal'Darim Altar, love it.
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Awesome map pool, regardless of the selection. Good job TSL admins!
On February 10 2011 18:19 StateAlchemist wrote:
Great choice.
I think there's no need to complain a lot about scrap's ramp, Crevasse has the same with the destructible rocks. :p
There's a legitimate reason to complain about it, honestly. The Scrap ramp is ridiculous in PvP and against some builds PvT and PvZ.
Crevasse style destructible rocks should be added to Scrap Station, imo. Great balance idea. Making the Scrap Station ramp small at the beginning by adding destructible rocks that block half of it gets rid of the ridiculousness of having a huge ramp early on while still enabling your enemy to remove that defense a bit later, but not right away or easily.
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terminus and scrap station are the worst two here imo
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On February 10 2011 20:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
terminus and scrap station are the worst two here imo
If you hadn't watched the GSTL finals game on Terminus before posting it, go do it. Seriously.
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Tal`Darim. It has to be in there. All of the GSL team league games on there have been insane.
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Awesome TL! So far the candidates are very good. As expected TL is ready to spearhead the necessary changes the game needs, even if blizzard doesn't support it.
I'd personally like to see:- Tal'darim Altar,
- Terminus RE,
- Crevasse,
- X'naga Caverns,
- Shakuras,
- and if a 6th will be chosen, Xfire SE
in that order.
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After watching all the GSTL matches, I can safely conclude that it would be absolutely foolish to not include Tal'darim and Terminus. The games on those maps are just PHENOMENAL. I have seen more BW-esque games on those maps compared to any other map in existence. Heck, the GSTL finals pretty much seemed like one huge advertisement on how plain awesome the new maps are.
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Wow nice to see they are still using Blizzard maps also. Sick map pool!
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man i cant wait for this tournement to start !!
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On February 10 2011 03:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The reason why we have posted this selection now is because we are of the opinion that players need to know their mappool plenty in advance. Ideally we would have announced our final 5 maps already, but because of developments in the scene we have decided to do it this way which gives us a little more time to look at the balance while players are still able to see which maps they should be practicing.
This means that there will not be other maps added as that defeats the point of giving players the map information with enough time in advance to practice.
On February 10 2011 06:22 Kennigit wrote:
These are the maps that have been chosen. If you want to talk about other potential maps, please do it outside of this thread.
This is questionable policy, in my humble opinion. The TSL is still quite awhile away, and if TL were to change the candidate map pool now, players would still have plenty of time to prepare. Hell, the players still aren't fully decided yet. Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) and scrap station (quite a lot of hate, questionable balance) and put in 2 iCCup maps, even if just as candidates. As you guys said, these are only candidate maps, only 5 will make it to the TSL. I don't think anybody would blame you if you switched out two of those maps due to "popular request."
Again, just my lowly opinion, but asserting TL staff sovereignty, as you two have, isn't quite a good a PR move as showing your flexibility, especially with the wiggle room you have now. (Still over a month and a half away! and this isn't like BW where TSL was the biggest tournament for which all players would practice constantly; up until March or even later, I feel even qualified candidates will still be focusing on other tournaments, so changing the mappool now wouldn't be a huge sleight)
EDIT: On second thought I think scrap is OK just because people seem to still have no idea if it's really imbalanced (tends to be bad players that hate it lol, ret admits he has trouble, etc)
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On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn)
Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck.
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On February 10 2011 23:20 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck.
I'm of the opinion that if you have to disable a spawn to get rid of a ridiculous imbalance then the map itself is poorly designed. Metalopolis has had a good run, it's time to retire that map for good.
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On February 10 2011 23:20 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck.
Far pos is still Z favored in ZvT, it's not like those positions are really balanced either.
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On February 10 2011 23:25 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 23:20 Redox wrote:On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck. I'm of the opinion that if you have to disable a spawn to get rid of a ridiculous imbalance then the map itself is poorly designed. Metalopolis has had a good run, it's time to retire that map for good.
Can you name any major flaws that would exist with Metalopolis if it had the exact same layout it does now, but it were a 2 player map always spawning in cross positions?
Also does anyone have genuine statistics on what the TvZ win % is in cross spots in high level games?
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why scrap station? isnt LT more imbalance than that map?
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Australia8532 Posts
Really great to see TSL taking the front foot; after seeing the kind of quality a game on Terminus can produce (GSTL last night Squirtle vs MVP - if you haven't seen it, you have not lived!) i really hope it gets selected..
Good to see TSL on the front foot - i am a little bit upset that Scrap is in their but hopefully it doesn't make the cut
iCCup is also another consideration that i suppose was left out?
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I just want to say that after watching the GSTL Finals, I take back everything I said about not using ICCup maps. The GSL maps are amazing. I hope all of them get used. TSL FTW!!
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Yeah! This might become a tournament with really awesome macro games! That's one of the reasons I did not buy a GSL ticket yet, I like long games, not all-in every game (of course I'm exaggerating...)
What I wanted to say is: Awesome!
Btw, I like scrap station (and I'm a terran player), I think it makes for exciting strategies!
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Russian Federation949 Posts
I would love to see LT instead of Scrap, also Iccup and ESL maps should be considered because some of them are very well done
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after watching GSTL i could not be more pumped with the new Gom maps, holy fuck
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I really feel as though someone should edit Scrap Station and make it symmetrical for tournaments.
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xelnaga caverns and shakuras are the only offical maps i would pick. fill the rest with gstl or iccup maps
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scrap station is very bad for PvP!
Pls consider this when selecting the maps. But I'am very happy with your possible selection so far. looking forward to it!
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Top 4 maps, Xelnaga Metalopolis Crevasse Teldarim.
I haven't seen enough of crossfire in sc2 yet, but i've seen some good games. Shakuras led to many really good game lately.
Hate scrap and havent seen terminus at all.
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In my opinion Scrap Station is a map that creates interesting strategies and interesting games. Not sure if it really is a balanced map, but I would like to see it in the map-pool for entertaining reasons.
Edit: Oh and good that LT isnt in there.
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On February 10 2011 23:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 23:20 Redox wrote:On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck. Far pos is still Z favored in ZvT, it's not like those positions are really balanced either.
In my opinion the players, which say Metal Cross is zerg favoured are the same which doing 2 Base Timing pushes the most of the time and don't really macro up.
On February 11 2011 03:32 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 23:25 setzer wrote:On February 10 2011 23:20 Redox wrote:On February 10 2011 23:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Do the right thing and get rid of metal (even with the modifications, that map is way too dependent on where the players spawn) Well they could modify Metalopolis anytime to make close ground spawns impossible, just like on Shakuras. That way it would become an awesome map without being too dependent on spawn luck. I'm of the opinion that if you have to disable a spawn to get rid of a ridiculous imbalance then the map itself is poorly designed. Metalopolis has had a good run, it's time to retire that map for good. Can you name any major flaws that would exist with Metalopolis if it had the exact same layout it does now, but it were a 2 player map always spawning in cross positions? Also does anyone have genuine statistics on what the TvZ win % is in cross spots in high level games?
Korea televised: TvZ: 35-30 (53.8%)
ZvP: 18-27 (40%)
PvT: 25-40 (38.5%)
Overall Cups: TvZ: 239-168 (58.7%)
ZvP: 118-172 (40.7%)
PvT: 253-277 (47.7%)
Mirrors: 375 TvT | 88 ZvZ | 144 PvP
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Metalopolis shouldn't be in map pool, the difference between spawning on cross and on close positions is so huge that it's just bad for any good tourney. Chances winning on this map are just too luck dependant. Also I think there is not place for xel naga. Even if it's one of the best maps on ladder atm it's still not good.
I would really like to see some iccup maps added
Also new rebalanced LT could be added - it's pretty decent now.
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how about the new test map in 1.2.1?
the modified lost temple seems really good.
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I love the new maps. But I will miss Lost Temple. I mean come on its a piece of history! SC, WCII, WCIII and now SCII... but I guess it's days are numbered. But the three new maps look sexy. And the games on them so far have been very interesting and fun to watch
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ICCup Testbug for Scrap Station and everything's perfect
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TSL3/TSL3_Logo_Banner_1.png){kind=logo}
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/pstsl_maps/tslmaps3.jpg)
