TSL-Yosh, TSL-RiboRibo, TSL-Scan, and TSL-Mercury are disqualified from TSL competition for ladder abuse.
TSL-Yosh yhnujmik transferred to poiuytrewqz. Immediately after the transfer, poiuytrewqz played two games (0-2) against TSL-Yosh. The games played from yhnujmik match the IP address for tsl-yosh. Thus, the rank and stats transferred to poiuytrewqz were achieved by tsl-yosh. Also, tsl-yosh used yhnujmik to play many games against TSL players without risking his tsl-yosh account.
TSL-RiboRibo iSSouthParkZZZ transferred to DotS)M2D(. Immediately after the transfer, DotS)M2D( played three games against TSL-RiboRibo. The games played from iSSouthParkZZZ match the IP address for TSL-RiboRibo. Thus, the rank and stats transferred from iSSouthParkZZZ to DotS)M2D( were achieved by TSL-RiboRibo.
TSL-Scan TSL-Scan played four games (4-0) against two accounts: ImAsian and Mpisnw. These four games were played from an IP address that matches TSL-Mercury. Additionally, these two accounts were used by TSL-Scan as well.
TSL-Mercury TSL-Mercury played five games (5-0) against two accounts: ImAsian and Mpisnw. These five games were played from an IP address that matches TSL-Scan. Additionally, these two accounts were used by TSL-Mercury as well.
Details About Earlier Disqualifications
Advokate[TSL] keelyoung transferred to jjlasdiaajak. Immediately after the transfer, jjlasdiaajak played three games (0-3) against Advokate[TSL]. The games played from keelyoung match the IP address for Advokate[TSL]. Thus, the rank and stats transferred from keelyoung to jjlasdiaajak were achieved by Advokate[TSL].
TSL-Pomi TSL-Pomi played three games (3-0) against jjlasdiaajak. jjlasdiaajak has a Korean flag but his games are played from an IP address located in Moscow. TSL-Pomi and Advokate[TSL] share team (RoX) and location (Russia). Also, jjlasdiaajak has no games played on the account except against Advokate[TSL] and TSL-Pomi, all five games which he lost.
You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heros now.
Sigh. I don't understand why yosh would do this, he's in the top 12? Why jeopardize everything if you're good enough to qualify without it? I guess it's like steriods and baseball... sad
(also impressed by the good work from the TL staff, quite impressed)
Congrats on the sick detective work btw tl. Sucks that you have to do this stuff but as with everything else, you do it well. I'm kinda hoping you strike down some other big names.
I was really looking forward to this inactive old school terran play.. I was an instant-fan after seeing his 57-0 streak and hearing how ret said yosh is a great player in his interview
I'm pretty disappointed in how uncreative people were with their abuse.
Then again the creative people probably didn't get caught.
I am still really hoping for TL detectives setting up a honeypot TOR node or something to catch people trying to disguise their IP addresses when abusing. Now THAT would be great.
On December 13 2009 14:44 tonight wrote: Was dumb by Yosh, but he could of still easily made it into the top48. Calling him a douchebag is way over the line.
He tried to steal up to $10,000 from tl, a non profit community organisation.
Seriously, what do people have to do to piss you guys off?
Kind of expected from Scan. However, surprised by Yosh doing it.. I was so excited to see him play too and wanted to see how he would fare in the tournament. tt
Sadly, I have a feeling there's a lot more to come :/
i was basically waiting for this thread to happen...i knew it was inevitable that some players would be caught for some sort of abuse...and i bet this isnt even the last of it. I am disappoint
On December 13 2009 14:44 tonight wrote: Was dumb by Yosh, but he could of still easily made it into the top48. Calling him a douchebag is way over the line.
It's hard to call people you like douchebags, but if it were someone you didn't like it would be easy.. Even though he could have been legit he still did this.. WHYYYYYYYY
On December 13 2009 12:08 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I'm going to be really curious to see the # of people who gets kicked or just some point deductions in the coming hours. Should open up a liquibet for # of people who get bumped out.
On December 13 2009 14:44 tonight wrote: Was dumb by Yosh, but he could of still easily made it into the top48. Calling him a douchebag is way over the line.
He tried to steal up to $10,000 from tl, a non profit community organisation.
Seriously, what do people have to do to piss you guys off?
bm the players that they support
lololol
but yeah, i'm terribly disappointed in these players, what were they even thinking... plain stupidity and dumb intents on their parts =o
On December 13 2009 14:44 tonight wrote: Was dumb by Yosh, but he could of still easily made it into the top48. Calling him a douchebag is way over the line.
He tried to steal up to $10,000 from tl, a non profit community organisation.
Seriously, what do people have to do to piss you guys off?
Yeah, because beating 48players in a tournament format would be stealing. If you subtract those games from his matchlist he's still top48. Stealing isn't the right word here.
Are these players banned from TSL3? If so, the top hundred or so players must be analyzed, not just the top 48. Its not fair to let someone who abused but failed to get into the top 48 play again while someone who did abuse and got into the top 48 cannot play again.
Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Kwark is pretty much right. Yosh is a cheater, people who are still supporting him need to wake up. I won't say that name-calling is warranted, but these types of things really make me pissed that people who have good reputations would just throw it away so easily. They must know they're losing the support of the community when they do that.
On December 13 2009 14:44 tonight wrote: Was dumb by Yosh, but he could of still easily made it into the top48. Calling him a douchebag is way over the line.
He tried to steal up to $10,000 from tl, a non profit community organisation.
Seriously, what do people have to do to piss you guys off?
Yeah, because beating 48players in a tournament format would be stealing. If you subtract those games from his matchlist he's still top48. Stealing isn't the right word here.
A position in the r1 has a greater chance of financial reward than a position in the lower rounds. Therefore it has greater value. He attempted to defraud tl into giving him a ticket to the r1 (which has a monetary value) by falsely gaining points.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
what i was thinking about his rank.. i dont understand why he would abuse 2 games when he was already apart of the top 12
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
I'm not sure you read the OP correctly. They said that yosh also smurfed many games on that account, essentially putting other players at risk with no risk to himself. It wasn't just two games
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Double standards much ? After all the flames A2 and F91 got, yosh deserves the same treatment.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
It also says he played many TSL players with his non-TSL account, perhaps trying to knock them out and getting practice against them without risking his account.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
How is it ambiguous. He got a second account to a high rank (it was his ip address), transferred the stats to someone else then got that someone else to freelose to him. That's about as unambiguous as you can get. He was playing his own account for points.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Double standards much ? After all the flames A2 and F91 got, yosh deserves the same treatment.
Well it's a double standard if someone else flamed A2 and F91 and then defended Sherwin, but I didn't flame either of them.
I wonder how much abuse happened in other league ladders like GOM and ASL. I don't think they payed this close of attention to abuse. I am sure it was rampant.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Why should it matter how good you are or where you're ranked? Are you saying that the top players should be allowed to abuse as long as it doesn't give them THAT many points? The point of TSL is fair competition and he did not uphold that.
On December 13 2009 14:58 IdrA wrote: oh goody superiorwolf is defending someone thats always entertaining
Edit: I can't understand how anybody could possibly defend yosh after what he did. -_-
Abuse is abuse, even if it doesn't affect others that much (which wasn't even the case here!). He played on that account and beat other players, jeopardizing their chances at the top 48 or top 12 etc.
On December 13 2009 14:58 Superiorwolf wrote: Well it's a double standard if someone else flamed A2 and F91 and then defended Sherwin, but I didn't flame either of them.
please don't do this.. you're not seriously asking to allow someone to play TSL after abusing..
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know.
Thanks Chill. When I made that post I couldn't help thinking "What does Chill think about my post?". Thankfully you saw it and replied to let us all know.
On December 13 2009 15:00 Bosu wrote: I wonder how much abuse happened in other league ladders like GOM and ASL. I don't think they payed this close of attention to abuse. I am sure it was rampant.
well there wasn't as much coverage or prize money on the line compared to this.
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Are you seriously this retarded? It's evidence against this:
I don't think he abused
WOW WHICH WILL I CHOOSE? Evidence or Superiorwolf's arbitrary character analysis? Hmmmm.
On December 13 2009 15:00 Bosu wrote: I wonder how much abuse happened in other league ladders like GOM and ASL. I don't think they payed this close of attention to abuse. I am sure it was rampant.
well there wasn't as much coverage or prize money on the line compared to this.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know.
Thanks Chill. When I made that post I couldn't help thinking "What does Chill think about my post?". Thankfully you saw it and replied to let us all know.
Here's the difference, Kwark. I comment on the topic and people's replies. You always, always enter a thread to talk about yourself. It's getting so tired.
On December 13 2009 15:00 Bosu wrote: I wonder how much abuse happened in other league ladders like GOM and ASL. I don't think they payed this close of attention to abuse. I am sure it was rampant.
well there wasn't as much coverage or prize money on the line compared to this.
No multiple or shared TSL accounts. You may have another ICCup account without a TSL tag, but that account cannot play games against TSL tagged players.
I'm curious as to how many more people will get DQd because of this, if TSL + iccup staff keep checking people like that (I feel like this number is going to be in the 10s...)
From what I'm seeing, it wasn't only those 2 games. Yosh also played other TSL players on his non-TSL account, and that's been against the rules from the start. I hope those players didn't know it was a smurfing Yosh, though... otherwise... ?
Hate cheaters. Dirty rotten cheaters. Good riddance.
Love TL, for being as thorough as they can to maintain the integrity of the event. This thing has got to be a clusterfuck and I don't envy the detectives on the case.
also now i'm expecting alot more people to be caught =( because honestly, these ppls abuse strategies are pretty half-assed and stupid... it's pretty much common knowledge that your IPs can be found and matched up and whatnot by any decent admin/mod/webmaster etc of the sites you use and visit
im thinking the admin peeps arent even through 10% of their abuse-detection work, and with 6 people caught already, i dont think setting a maragin of 60 players is enough, sadly =(((((
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know.
Thanks Chill. When I made that post I couldn't help thinking "What does Chill think about my post?". Thankfully you saw it and replied to let us all know.
On December 13 2009 15:08 John49ers wrote: Maybe Yosh got a hold of Scans K-pop playlist. It all makes sense now..
yes, riboribo, advokate and pomi also listen to k-pop thus is why they abused.
hell, why don't you go on a crusade to south korea and eliminate the evil that is korean popular music? with your awesome theory, probably all of the current progamers are abusers too!
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Are you seriously this retarded? It's evidence against this:
WOW WHICH WILL I CHOOSE? Evidence or Superiorwolf's arbitrary character analysis? Hmmmm.
Clearly his character analysis, I mean he taught a starcraft class, afterall. And Yosh was this teacher's teacher which makes him doubly teachery. But the interesting thing about doubly teachery is if you add a single "r" you get doubly treachery!
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Are you seriously this retarded? It's evidence against this:
I don't think he abused
WOW WHICH WILL I CHOOSE? Evidence or Superiorwolf's arbitrary character analysis? Hmmmm.
Clearly his character analysis, I mean he taught a starcraft class, afterall. And Yosh was this teacher's teacher which makes him doubly teachery. But the interesting thing about doubly teachery is if you add a single "r" you get doubly treachery!
On December 13 2009 14:53 Superiorwolf wrote: Lol wtf? I can't believe TSL is disqualifying yosh. That is ridiculous. And from what I can tell, it is an ambiguous two games that would still leave him at the top 12 even if he did not have those games. What rank were those games at? And was the IP for the second account matching yosh?
People calling him a scammer and abuser are really misinformed, first of all even if those two games WERE abuse he was still top 12 and even then I don't think he abused. I hope TSL reconsiders their decision.
Are you seriously this retarded? It's evidence against this:
I don't think he abused
WOW WHICH WILL I CHOOSE? Evidence or Superiorwolf's arbitrary character analysis? Hmmmm.
Clearly his character analysis, I mean he taught a starcraft class, afterall. And Yosh was this teacher's teacher which makes him doubly teachery. But the interesting thing about doubly teachery is if you add a single "r" you get doubly treachery!
I mean F91 was desperate to get in Top12, Pomi, Scan, Mercury and the Polish guy weren't good enough to get in top48 without cheating and it seems that A2 was just too lazy to play legit and get his spot. But Yosh was already in top 12.
I'm half expecting one of the more vocal people from this or the other threads chastising these abusers to be caught himself of abusing. As biggy smalls once proclaimed, Juicy.
I guess 10k might be a bit too rich for an online tournament (it would defiantly be too much money if any other site was running it) TL is awesome.
I hope people see my train of thought there, because if they don't I just look like an asshole.
And why did they have to abuse. They would have still been able to make it if they had just played legit (Yosh, A2, and Pomi I don't know the other two).
good players need to stop cheating PLEASE. was looking forward to f91 as a chinese zerg threatening top foreigners, then hes out. was impressed by advokate's rise, really rooted for him with most everybody else, then hes out. even scan as a stremer i had some hopes for, but people had been pointing that out so i guess that wasnt as bad.
but yosh. ugh.
WHY????????? all of them screwed themselves out of a chance at big money and respect, instead basically losing it in the community's eyes. AND, despite their cheating i think we can all agree they were all solid players and by cheating they also are knocking down the potential quality of this tournament.
I say the abuse all boils down to a lack of respect for SC as a professional competition, and a lack of respect for e-Sports in general.
I'm willing to bet that the same people, were they to be playing professional/near-professional soccer or football etc., would've never considered using performance-enhancement drugs; even if they were, it would be out of the utter respect for the sport and a desperation to win in something that they respect so much. This is not the case for SC, as I doubt anybody but Jaedong/the most devoted pros are true SC fanatics. These abusers' lack of respect for SC is also reflected in their poorly thought-out methods of abuse; they didn't even care enough to think of/research a plan that wasn't so dumb and that would've worked.
On December 13 2009 15:15 Incanus wrote: Oh shit, this guy probably played a game against someone who didn't even make the top 48 on a smurf account, let's burn him with the hackers.
Hmm, on the smurf account he BEAT:
datoby twice, would have qualified without those losses.
White-Ra four times
Octzerg, Mana and a bunch of other TSLers.
Maybe you should look into shit before making stupid assumptions.
1350 players taking part in TSL2, even if you are skilled enough to get top 5 it does not mean you can break the rules to get there just to save time. It doesnt matter if the cheating happens during D-rank or when you are already nr.2 you are still screwing all of the valid players even the ones below 1000 points and who have no chance of ever making it to top 48. Even if the price pool was a hundred times bigger resorting to such action is just low. Is it okay to steal the bank because there´s just a shitload of money?
The proof of these guys cheating is quite clear, I don´t see why anyone should defend them other than themselves. Saying it´s okay because the cheater didn´t really get much out of it is like saying it´s okay to Usain Bolt to take all the hormones in the world because he would probably win the race anyway.
I take my hat off for those who were clinging near the 48th place for what seemed forever and not once thought of cheating especially for those who didn´t make it, that´s the true winners mentality.
I really hope these cheaters are banned from all future TSL events. That would make a big difference in discouraging future cheating. Then players will really think about again trying to cheat in a TSL event.
thx for the effort of the tsl admins and iccup staff.
i dont understand how the players would think that its so easy to abuse, iccup logs every ip of every single game more than 3 years now, due to over 100 ex-iccup-admins on iccup everyone knows that. also the transfer before playing is even more suspicious to look over.
It is great to see this level of enforcement from the TSL organizers and TL.net staff. I was looking forward to seeing some of these players in action over the course of the TSL event, but players must be held accountable for the rules, and all the punishments (disqualification) have been appropriate.
I just thought of something. Last time at least players had to submit official rep packs for examination, what were these abusers planning on doing to avoid being exposed by that. I think TL's staff would notice an abuse win replay.
Earlier I felt sorry for F91 and even tried to defend him, but now that I see how rampant cheating is the foreigner scene I am completely disgusted. Props to TL for having such a strict punishment for cheating. God this is sad. T_T
On December 13 2009 15:33 wswordsmen wrote: I just thought of something. Last time at least players had to submit official rep packs for examination, what were these abusers planning on doing to avoid being exposed by that. I think TL's staff would notice an abuse win replay.
I don't think they watch every single replay... regardless I'm sure they played games that wouldn't be incredibly noticeable, just a normal game that has a predetermined result. Its much easier to look at IPs and stats transfers
On December 13 2009 15:43 StylishVODs wrote: I hope this leads to datoby qualifing, man he was so close, i think he actually got to 9700 like 5 min after the end or something..
Iccup says that he's 9775 so I would say he's safely in.
On December 13 2009 15:43 StylishVODs wrote: I hope this leads to datoby qualifing, man he was so close, i think he actually got to 9700 like 5 min after the end or something..
Iccup says that he's 9775 so I would say he's safely in.
yeah but his last game started like exactly 4am so i donnu if it counts Sad to see so many people abuse in such a great event with so much money on the line.
On December 13 2009 15:43 StylishVODs wrote: I hope this leads to datoby qualifing, man he was so close, i think he actually got to 9700 like 5 min after the end or something..
Iccup says that he's 9775 so I would say he's safely in.
yeah but his last game started like exactly 4am so i donnu if it counts Sad to see so many people abuse in such a great event with so much money on the line.
his last 2 games won't count, they were started after 06:00:00 iCCup time
On December 13 2009 15:50 d(O.o)a wrote: So who is TSL-Mercury?
OP: TSL-Scan played four games (4-0) against two accounts: ImAsian and Mpisnw. These four games were played from an IP address that matches TSL-Mercury. Additionally, these two accounts were used by TSL-Scan as well.
This is dissapointing ofc, but on the bright side...They got caught in abusing and therefore don't deserve to participate... My dick is still hard for TSL.
On December 13 2009 15:43 StylishVODs wrote: I hope this leads to datoby qualifing, man he was so close, i think he actually got to 9700 like 5 min after the end or something..
OP: TSL-Scan played four games (4-0) against two accounts: ImAsian and Mpisnw. These four games were played from an IP address that matches TSL-Mercury. Additionally, these two accounts were used by TSL-Scan as well.
This is dissapointing ofc, but on the bright side...They got caught in abusing and therefore don't deserve to participate... My dick is still hard for TSL.
The quote from the OP simply says taht ImAsian and Mpisnw which are 2 randoma ccounts are TSL-Mercury I was wondering if they're actually somebody who isn't a total random.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
Thanks Kwark. When I entered this thread the first thing I wondered was "How does this affect Kwark?" Thankfully you posted within the first 10 replies to let us all know.
Thanks Chill. When I made that post I couldn't help thinking "What does Chill think about my post?". Thankfully you saw it and replied to let us all know.
Here's the difference, Kwark. I comment on the topic and people's replies. You always, always enter a thread to talk about yourself. It's getting so tired.
I thought Kwark made a good point about how some people's priorities were out of whack. I didn't find it to be egotistical because a lot of players have been hounded for being strategic with their opponent choices (a.k.a. dodging). For instance, from the Morrow interview: + Show Spoiler +
I don’t feel like I am in a position to trash other gamers underneath me in this ladder since I’ve also had my fair amount of dodging^^ Altho I do think it’s weak of people who bm the ones who dodge them, and I think its weak to lie to your opponent make up fake excuses not to play, but I don’t think its weak to dodge somebody. When I dodge somebody I just tell them the truth. Players like iNcontrol who I said “i can’t play more today cause i must go soon etc” started bming me and even bringing it up on the TL forum.
Guys like Tarson and Terran which I’ve simple told “i dont wanna play you cause your too good” (TvT) and then they start flaming me etc I think this is really weak.
It’s also really annoying with the guys who say “sorry i need to warm up” then you ask them 30 minutes later they say “i must eat” and it goes on like this forever. Dodging is OK - lieing and bming is not… we all want a high spot in TSL it’s our natural instinct to dodge so just accept it.
Oh yes and a last thing, you should’nt bm somebody because of their game style like many people do. Don’t let the game impact you emotionally, just learn to defend it instead of nerd raging… that is just pathetic.
The whole ladder is gonna be a jumbled mess to sort through so I don't envy whoever has to sort that mess out. It's a ton of work for TL when the TSL team has already done yeoman work to catch all sorts of illicit behavior. But, yeah, there are abusers. And then plenty of people unknowingly profiting off abusers (pretty sure Ret and Idra both played Yosh, and how could they not when sharing top ladder space). Some people like Morrow and maybe Kwark probably saw people higher than they deserved to be in the ladder and tried to aim for them (some of them lucky, some of them abusers), but they can't really be blamed, especially when the TSL chose to kind of hang back on enforcement in order to collect the maximum amount of info before acting (which also means the maximum amount of accuracy and work, probably).
The ladder format has its weaknesses and strengths. It's open to mass participation by members of this great community. It's also open to grey area practices like dodging, but more draconian rules about matchups would be frustrating. It's also open to abuse with multiple accounts and the like. Bottom line is that I feel the TSL admins are doing a great job and I appreciate it; I also think we should save our pitchforks and torches for real abusers. If you have a problem with what Kwark and Morrow have been (allegedly and hopefully) doing, see if you can draft some ladder rules to prevent that kind of behavior without creating worse problems that outweigh the benefit of the rules.
On December 13 2009 15:56 baller wrote: is it true yosh real name is "Surewin"?
also TSL-Scam haha
Sherwin
romanian
On December 13 2009 15:58 blue_arrow wrote:
On December 13 2009 15:56 baller wrote: is it true yosh real name is "Surewin"?
also TSL-Scam haha
scan..
or am i?
ya i'm from romania, fuck you american
hahahhahahahaha that's like a double romanian play. I've never seen something so beautiful
Drama is always great, sad to see Yosh/A2 go-they were really stupid and fucked up-, but that bm retard Scan deserved it. Cant wait to see the next batch of abusers, hopefully zerg abusers, enough top terrans eliminated already and we have too many zergs.
omg, stop kickin my favorite players yosh?! wtf man, and A2 also...JEEZ, this fuckin` sucks, lost all my respect for you! well, at least there are 2 Romanians in top 24...I HOPE
On December 13 2009 12:08 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I'm going to be really curious to see the # of people who gets kicked or just some point deductions in the coming hours. Should open up a liquibet for # of people who get bumped out.
I'm gonna say 4. You want to take over or under?
wheeeee
To be fair; I said I wanted to push. And, well, it might not be over just yet. I don't think I'll be hedging my bet.
Are these guys seriously dumb enough to NOT FUCKING REALIZE all ICCup accounts can be viewed by looking at 1 IP Address as well as all stat transfers. They had this kind of shit since the ladder began like 3 years ago when I was an admin, they must of only advanced their smurf tracking skillz.
Look, I understand why you guys would want to DQ people for abusing etc, but some people, like Advokate and Yosh would have been qualified even with the "abuse" games removed, and should have just had points removed. All your doing is removing competition for IdrA/Ret.
On December 13 2009 17:22 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Look, I understand why you guys would want to DQ people for abusing etc, but some people, like Advokate and Yosh would have been qualified even with the "abuse" games removed, and should have just had points removed. All your doing is removing competition for IdrA/Ret.
an abuser is still an abuser. Don't condone their actions.
They would have qualified, but tried to take the easy way out, they got caught, now face the penalty of it. Regardless of their skill, an abuse is still an abuse.
On December 13 2009 15:03 John49ers wrote: Wasn't Yosh one of the guest Teachers for the Berkeley starcraft class? I wonder what the students will think?
On December 13 2009 16:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Are we please going to move back to the days that cheaters are relentlessly harassed until after grueling periods of time they earn trust again.
Cause seriously, I would be pissed to see any of the big names in any major tournaments (or future TL ones) after all this. Just sickening.
What days were those? Because I seem to remember Elky and Smuft stealing money right out of this communitys pockets and people still love them lol. Not saying its right but we have always been a pretty relaxed community when it comes to this stuff. No one ever really gets black balled for long. Map hacking seems to be the only taboo BW players really get up in arms about. Look at Testies no matter what he does the first thing most people think when they see his name is "hacker"
On December 13 2009 16:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Are we please going to move back to the days that cheaters are relentlessly harassed until after grueling periods of time they earn trust again.
Cause seriously, I would be pissed to see any of the big names in any major tournaments (or future TL ones) after all this. Just sickening.
What days were those? Because I seem to remember Elky and Smuft stealing money right out of this communitys pockets and people still love them lol. Not saying its right but we have always been a pretty relaxed community when it comes to this stuff. No one ever really gets black balled for long. Map hacking seems to be the only taboo BW players really get up in arms about. Look at Testies no matter what he does the first thing most people think when they see his name is "hacker"
Map hacking is a taboo, don't get me wrong. But seriously, look at what Testie had to do to get his name "cleared" to the point he could game. Yes people still think hacker at his name, but they can also appreciate the ability he had, as once he went legit and really worked his ass off he became one of the best players in the foreigner scene.
Then all the other known maphackers also got persecuted and booted from the community. The people who are abusing ladders are no different. Its arguably worse of a crime to abuse a ladder for free wins, than use a maphack and still have to earn it (although at an advantage). This is a slope that a tournament moderator can crack down on, but without a community really getting angry at it, rather than accepting it and going "well he had his reasons" nothing will change.
As for Elky and smuft, stealing cash. Yes it was douchebaggish and the like. Truth be told I still don't like smuft. Elky I respect for his ability at poker/sc, but past that I don't know how much he has changed, so hes still a douche in my eyes.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
What you did is fun to make fun of, but there's nothing legitimately wrong with it.
OH AND EVERYONE I LOST TO IN THE LAST DAY THAT MADE TOP 48 I GAVE FREE WINS TO PLEASE BAN THEM THANKS
On December 13 2009 17:45 annYeong(o11) wrote: yosh would have been 13th without the 194 points from playing with himself, sigh
Yeah gotta love how the last two games on his match list are the ones he abused in, absurd. Course that doesn't take into consideration how many people he played on another account(s).
Dunno much about the other players but really disappointing to hear about Yosh. I was looking forward to seeing some nice games from him and I wonder how he'd do vs other top foreigners.
On December 13 2009 17:56 Jonoman92 wrote: Dunno much about the other players but really disappointing to hear about Yosh. I was looking forward to seeing some nice games from him and I wonder how he'd do vs other top foreigners.
same here, i've seen him kick ass in the CSL when he's playing scrubs for the most part, and a lot of his 57 game streak was against less than B-, would have been good to see him in his element
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
Hmmm... that is strange. TSL-Vasilisk sure benefited from that stats transfer. A bunch of others too, but Vasilisk was the guy to play him 3-0 right afterwards
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
what the fuck? I seriously hope to god its just one guy donating a account to his friend to play top foreigners and not some universal abuse for money shit. Seriously wtf?
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
what the fuck? I seriously hope to god its just one guy donating a account to his friend to play top foreigners and not some universal abuse for money shit. Seriously wtf?
For the benefit of an individual, it is pretty easy to cover up donated points by donating to many other players (including TSL tagged players).
This idiot should have at least won a few games here and there to make it less obvious.
On December 13 2009 18:17 raga4ka wrote: Woah so many good players geting disqualified . What the fuck are they doing ? Stupid 2 games abuse and there goes their chance at the big money .
doesn't it say he also smurffed tsl members with an alt acct
OMG YOSH!! WTF is going on here. My world is so confusing. Yosh didn't need to cheat. I obviously respect the TL staff and the information they are using to back this up, but I would really like to hear from Yosh about what is going on here. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this. Could it maybe be a friend of his that he played some games from his house and then later played him on his transfered account?? Yosh seems like a person of high character. Please let us know whether you abused or it was some mistake Yosh. =(
It made me so happy to see an old schooler like Yosh getting so high in the ladder
HAha i remember last night after scan had been streaming for like 13++ hours and failing to get top 48. He then closed his stream and said "Ok guys, closing stream - time to concentrate"
And all this time i thought he was going to masturbate. (Not that i think about him masturbating all the time..)
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
Hmmm... that is strange. TSL-Vasilisk sure benefited from that stats transfer. A bunch of others too, but Vasilisk was the guy to play him 3-0 right afterwards
TSL-Vasilisk was caught cheating on iccup. Why was he even аllowed to participate? Now he should be banned anyway. About the rest of the cheaters - in other sports you get 2 year ban for substance abuse, I think it's only fear to adopt this. If players are banned just from these event they will try again. There should be longer lasting consequences for abusers. like 2 year ban from all TL events and share that information with other foreign tourneys. To all that still defend the cheaters: How could you be so stupid those guys cheated and you defend them? It doesn't meter if they qualify without abuse, if they did it they should be consequences regardless of how god they are. In other sports you don't say "well he still would've won the competition lets give him the title regardless"
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
Hmmm... that is strange. TSL-Vasilisk sure benefited from that stats transfer. A bunch of others too, but Vasilisk was the guy to play him 3-0 right afterwards
another abuser most likely, the question is if you can prove who this account belongs to.
That guy was like C rank at best. I proxy 99ed him, got scouted immediately, lost my proxy gateways and still won vs him. Looking at the match list I have to suspect Vasilisk here. Somebody gave a terrible player an A- account and the first thing he did was to 0-3 to Vasilisk.
Wow Yosh and A2 this is beyond retardation. Both are easily top 5 terrans atm and they all throw it away for a fucking 200-300 points . I dont understand what were they thinking ....
The Huge Golden Shiny Award for Superior Stupidity goes out toooo....
Yosh!
aaaand
Advokate aka A2!
These both individuals really worked hard to build up a reputable image for themselves over the years, accumulated a high amount of skill which is apparent to anyone around AND NOW they cheat in 23,000$ event for the sake of some points they both wouldn't need anyhow - I and the jury think this should be especially rewarded as a true achievement! Take this trophy, please!
On December 13 2009 18:45 ELESSAR wrote: TSL-Vasilisk was caught cheating on iccup. Why was he even аllowed to participate? Now he should be banned anyway. About the rest of the cheaters - in other sports you get 2 year ban for substance abuse, I think it's only fear to adopt this. If players are banned just from these event they will try again. There should be longer lasting consequences for abusers. like 2 year ban from all TL events and share that information with other foreign tourneys. To all that still defend the cheaters: How could you be so stupid those guys cheated and you defend them? It doesn't meter if they qualify without abuse, if they did it they should be consequences regardless of how god they are. In other sports you don't say "well he still would've won the competition lets give him the title regardless"
Yeah I'm thinking 2 year TL ban might be necessary this is getting crazy out of control.
On December 13 2009 18:52 Zalfor wrote: dude, for future reference. i think it would be interesting offensive for someone to get people banned from tournaments.
like, framing someone o_O
It's a good point. I'm sure that's why they've been sticking to just using identical IPs as evidence so far, since other stuff is harder to prove.
It saddens me that so many top terrans would have to abuse for like 2 games rofl and ruin their entire reputation for years and get DQed out of the TSL.
They weren't being exactly subtle about it either, at least use a proxied computer at work with virtual desktop if you're going to give yourself free wins.
Some unexpected names on the abuse lists for sure. Not that they deserve anything less than a DQ. But yeah why would some of those ever abuse in the first place. Siiiigh.
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
dude kwark your a fucking saint compared to most. maybe ur not the best gamer but your really mannered and u dont dodge or cheat, respect!
On December 13 2009 21:03 eXNewB wrote: lol i wonder how they catch the kids who are smart enough to use proxies :S:S
because of that i don't belive in this thing... it's strange that so good players can be so stupid and not just that, so good players had 10 000 + points and 300 or 400 makes no difference....... too strange
On December 13 2009 14:32 KwarK wrote: You know what, this actually makes me feel pretty vindicated. I got so much random crap thrown at me because I purposefully sought out players I knew I could beat and farmed them but not once did I consider asking someone to throw a game or utilising one of my other B+ accounts to throw myself games. These are what actual abusers look like. Let's see how the mob treats their heroes now.
dude kwark your a fucking saint compared to most. maybe ur not the best gamer but your really mannered and u dont dodge or cheat, respect!
Catfight, catfight, catfight!!
On a more serious note. People are arguing that it's incomprehensible to cheat 2 games when it doesn't matter (like Yosh did) and that it's not as severe as going full out abuse. That's true, but it doesn't matter. It's severe enough to be illegal in the tournament so the rules can not be bent.
Very good job by TL finding all these abusers. I'm personally very sad to see Advokate and Yosh do this as they were my two favorite foreigner Terrans.
On December 13 2009 21:28 CauthonLuck wrote: 2 games is a huge deal when it bumps you into the top 12 and somebody deserving of it out.
And beyond that it effects everybody around you on the ladder and their perceived standing.
My timing on when all of these matches occurred could be off; but the premise behind them is sound.
Look at F91. Had he not cheated he (I believe) would have stayed top 12 with the disqualifications of Yosh and Dimaga. If they cheated prior to f91 cheating he might not have felt the need to play additional games at all in order to maintain his rank in the top 12. I'm not forgiving f91, but merely using him as an example of others playing games they didn't have to because of the inflated ranks of others.
What is wrong with these players? A2,Yosh,Dimaga?! All of those could easily qualify on their own - in fact they were qualified on their own and THEN they decide to abuse?
I just dont get why players that should be able to reach the top ranks anyway would cheat? Disrespects the tournament, the organisers and the comunity for no reason whatsoever besides lazyness?
Although I agree that its a good thing to DQ abusers..Yosh and Dimaga easily qualified by themselves without abusing and they were probably good enough to make top8..
On December 13 2009 17:22 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Look, I understand why you guys would want to DQ people for abusing etc, but some people, like Advokate and Yosh would have been qualified even with the "abuse" games removed, and should have just had points removed. All your doing is removing competition for IdrA/Ret.
You gotta be pretty stupid to cheat in such a serious tournament with so much money at stake. Quite amazed by what some of the more known players do. Definantly bringing down the overall rep. of the foreign scene.
On December 13 2009 21:39 JWD wrote: This is getting really disgusting.
Is there no sense of "right" in the foreign scene? Why are players so eager to cheat?
57-0 my ass
When you put up a prize pool that is as large as the one that you have here at TSL you are going to naturally get players that are going to do just about anything to get them into a position to compete for that money. This is why you are going to have people thinking of different ways to abuse your system to make it easier for them to get what they want. This isn't rocket science. Consider as well that online people are not going to be held to that same "moral standard" that they would during a live event. Also, I guarantee that you are going to have people that are just outside of the top 48 that are going to be coming up with their own conspiracy theories just to try to boost themselves up into that top group.
This is simply the other side of the coin that you will have to deal with as an admin of any event that has a large prize pool placed up there in the front. You just have to accept it and do what you can to try to punish those that are overly abusing the system.
On December 13 2009 21:42 Promises wrote: I just dont get why players that should be able to reach the top ranks anyway would cheat? Disrespects the tournament, the organisers and the comunity for no reason whatsoever besides lazyness?
the only theory that makes sense to me is that they wanted to probe other top players without beeing probed themselves. the acutal point abuse came later and was the kind of a second of stupidness decision.
On December 13 2009 18:27 Ao_Jun wrote: HAha i remember last night after scan had been streaming for like 13++ hours and failing to get top 48. He then closed his stream and said "Ok guys, closing stream - time to concentrate"
As he kept playing after stopping to stream after 13++ hours and started to win a series of games in 5minutes - it smelled so much like cheating...
"Time to concentrate" - WTF - as if he was not concentrating before and just needs to play real to get 500points in 30min or something...
Disgusting! Hope he ll be banned from streaming on TL!
everything would be great if TSL is only for TSL players... i can't see any reason why players can play with anyone that isn't in TSL.. makes no sense..
with rule to play only TSL players you would stop abuse but with this you have some players that managed to abuse and haven't been caught..
i wish i could know how many players had opponents that didn't bother to give them real resistance
On December 13 2009 23:09 n3gative wrote: After all the hype scan tried to build up about himself...he failed miserably. He was his own personal fluffer and choked :o
I've always wanted a solid reason for not liking him, his cocky attitude and crappy taste of music was almost enough. But this... man fuck you forever Scan!
Everyone saying people like yosh should just lose the points gained by abuse should bear in mind that that is retarded. If that was the only punishment, you could abuse like there is no tomorrow, since it puts you at no risk. You would only lose what you don't have in the first place.It creates a no risk/high reward scenario.
Ah and I wanted to thank all the TL guys for their hard work, I know organizing something (especially this large) is a pain in the ass, and if people abuse your hard work like yosh and others did, it makes it even less pleasant. I really appreciate all the work you're doing here, thank you very very much.
On December 13 2009 23:21 purgerinho wrote: everything would be great if TSL is only for TSL players... i can't see any reason why players can play with anyone that isn't in TSL.. makes no sense..
with rule to play only TSL players you would stop abuse but with this you have some players that managed to abuse and haven't been caught..
qft
On December 13 2009 23:21 purgerinho wrote: i wish i could know how many players had opponents that didn't bother to give them real resistance
then u have to do qualifiers and no ladder stage, seems impossible with over 1000 players
NO F wonder. i saw scan play against mipsn on his stream tvp. and the protoss was hella clueless and never got arbiters even when he had 4 expansions. i was like wtf how is B player get 4 expansions no arbiters and around 15 20min mark still no arbiters
wow these guys are dumb using the same IP... i mean how much does it cost to ask a friend to go to a cybercafe/lan and use is transfered account vs him? and some of these guys didnt even needed to cheat to get top48... really sad.
On December 14 2009 00:19 H wrote: not that I'm one to tell you guys what to do but you shouldn't even let abusers stream on your site fullstop. unless that's what you were implying.
That's what he was implying. There is no way we will feature cheaters streaming.
On December 14 2009 00:19 H wrote: not that I'm one to tell you guys what to do but you shouldn't even let abusers stream on your site fullstop. unless that's what you were implying.
That's what he was implying. There is no way we will feature cheaters streaming.
Scan is a narcissistic egotistic bm fucking retard and measures shouldve been taken against him beforehand and against his stream, he was caught hacking separately on 2 accounts in the iccup purge and I was surprised to still see him stream. Well the good thing now that he is gone from TL forever.
LOL is Scan´s QI = 0 :O who creates an account with dozens of ppl watchiing and use that account to cheat ladder.... just feel bad for some of the players who were close to top48 and had to play to get in and fell behind... if they hadnt played they would be in by now.
On December 13 2009 14:28 FragKrag wrote: Aw man Yosh. That just really sucks that he had to abuse
I was looking forward to seeing him play after that amazing streak.
lol "had to..."
2 free wins... Is it really worth it? He would have achieved top 12 without it, he could just have bashed 2 less skilled players, which would mean a lot of players. Just so stupid:/
Yosh shouldn't be in TSL for this season because of what he did, but people saying stupid shit like "he's a douchebag" and "I've lost respect for him" that's just way out of line.
On December 14 2009 01:29 DyEnasTy wrote: What the hell guys? Jeez, Im having a hard time showing the same level of respect after finding out players cheat.
Don't worry, they don't deserve the same level of respect anymore.
I just have to laugh at how this sort of thing is so shocking to a number of you. Any time you put a significant sum of money on a line for an online tournament of this nature, you will ALWAYS have certain individuals who will manipulate the system for their own gains. These sorts of tournaments show the true character of many, and money will quite often bring out the worst in people, especially on a web site such as this that hypes the pro gaming scene to the nth degree.
On the contrast though, in a ladder system people are always going to find ways to manipulate the system and it just so happens that TL has decided to turn each and every one of these into a public act. It's so funny too considering that a number of the people that are criticizing when put into the same situation as a number of the players that cheated would probably end up doing the same thing. It's a hell of a lot easier to be overly critical when you aren't the one with everything to lose. I'm definitely not justifying the acts that were done here in any means, but don't act as if you're some omnipotent moral individual too and would have acted in perfect accord either if you had a chance.
On December 14 2009 01:40 SpaceDominator wrote: I just have to laugh at how this sort of thing is so shocking to a number of you. Any time you put a significant sum of money on a line for an online tournament of this nature, you will ALWAYS have certain individuals who will manipulate the system for their own gains. These sorts of tournaments show the true character of many, and money will quite often bring out the worst in people, especially on a web site such as this that hypes the pro gaming scene to the nth degree.
On the contrast though, in a ladder system people are always going to find ways to manipulate the system and it just so happens that TL has decided to turn each and every one of these into a public act. It's so funny too considering that a number of the people that are criticizing when put into the same situation as a number of the players that cheated would probably end up doing the same thing. It's a hell of a lot easier to be overly critical when you aren't the one with everything to lose. I'm definitely not justifying the acts that were done here in any means, but don't act as if you're some omnipotent moral individual too and would have acted in perfect accord either if you had a chance.
It's not the fact that some people decided to abuse that is shocking to me, i know things like that will happen when there is so much money on the line, it's the players that decided to abuse the ladder that is shocking. Players like Dimaga, Yosh and A2, it's completely mystifying to me how they would resort to abusing when all this time i have always thought of them as nothing but manner people.
Well, here's the thing though. This is also the one time in which it's actually viewed as the player's fault not the tournament administrator's fault which is quite often what ends up occurring in these situation. I seem to remember that in similar situations in the past the blame would always be squarely on the people running the tournament for not being "strict enough" or doing something that many here disagreed with.
Again though, I think in a lot of cases it had to do with either an internal or external pressure to succeed to get into that top level of the ladder to ultimately put themselves in a position for money. Money and pressure can make some people do things they might not normally do.
On December 14 2009 01:30 tonight wrote: Yosh shouldn't be in TSL for this season because of what he did, but people saying stupid shit like "he's a douchebag" and "I've lost respect for him" that's just way out of line.
lolol it's really out of line to stop respecting someone because they cheat? does respect mean anything to you?? hahaha
anyway it's not yosh's first time. kid has a history of shady behavior.
On December 14 2009 01:30 tonight wrote: Yosh shouldn't be in TSL for this season because of what he did, but people saying stupid shit like "he's a douchebag" and "I've lost respect for him" that's just way out of line.
cheating is a matter of going to court in some sports... just to put some things in perspective...
i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
wow don't take the pussies complaining so seriously. Couldn't find opponents, didn't have enough time... Rofl these are the shittiest excuses being uttered by cheating poooooossies and you buy into it. zzzzzzz
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
But it's such fucking bullshit, how come people like mondragon, ret, idra, white-ra, strelok, morrow, managed to find games? they are even more famous than reason, vasilvislivk, and whoever else. Such a weak excuse... "he was offline for a week" WHAT? that's his own goddamn fault, besides Kolll didn't even play until there was like a week LEFT, and he still qualified because he wasn't being a pussy about playing koreans.
It IS abuse in the highest degree, not only did they fuck over people just below the 48 mark that decided it was impossible to qualify because of the inflated points cutoff, they did it by getting free wins from friends, how is that not abuse (cheating)?
On December 14 2009 01:40 SpaceDominator wrote: don't act as if you're some omnipotent moral individual too and would have acted in perfect accord either if you had a chance.
Think before you post, dude. I don't think anyone is actually thin-skinned enough to be offended by this particular bit of stupidity, but don't you think it's kind of idiotic to suppose that everyone who is shocked by the number of ladder abusers would have also abused, given the chance? You're not-so-indirectly insulting, well, basically everyone.
On December 14 2009 01:40 SpaceDominator wrote: don't act as if you're some omnipotent moral individual too and would have acted in perfect accord either if you had a chance.
Think before you post, dude. I don't think anyone is actually thin-skinned enough to be offended by this particular bit of stupidity, but don't you think it's kind of idiotic to suppose that everyone who is shocked by the number of ladder abusers would have also abused, given the chance? You're not-so-indirectly insulting, well, basically everyone.
Interesting way to read into that comment and it was definitely not the intent. However, if all you're doing in a particular thread is complaining about the fact that someone else cheated and then proceed to go off on some random tangent accusing that individual of being a complete crook, what does that really tell you about that individual? Obviously I'm not vein enough to state that every single person that is "shocked by the number of ladder abusers would have also abused," it's not true. However, if all you're going to do is bitch and whine about others, you've sometimes got to look in the mirror and reflect about what YOU would do in that particular situation. That's it. It's not some back-handed comment insulting everyone.
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
what the hell are you talking about? ALL the best players made it. with the HIGHLY arguable exception of kolll, the best 8 players outside korea and china are ALL in the top 12. if you had the skill and you gave it the effort, qualifying in whatever group you correctly belong in was equally doable for every single player - this is exactly why this IS the best qualifying system as opposed to invitations or qualifying tournaments or whatever. there are good players who failed for whatever reason, be it that they didnt play enough or that they didn't play well enough or didn't take it seriously enough, and some good players who were retarded enough to abuse, but the final list made is an awesome list. not only that, but the top 12 has a significantly higher average skill level than the 12-24 group, and the 12-24 group has a significantly higher average skill level than 24-48.
I'm just happy we can all LOL at Yosh's 57-0, was tired of hearing about it. Idra could simply accomplish this by making a smurf and roflstomping his way to a perfect record.
I really don't think you should remove these people from the featured streams. Though I 100% agree with Grobo/Drone's logic ("All" the good players made it without abuse), and they do deserve to be knocked out of the TSL/lose respectability/etc., they still are good players who noobs (like me) can benefit from watching. Burying them amidst D+s makes them harder to find, and is unnecessary, in my opinion. And SpaceDominator, stop vomiting gibberish.
On December 14 2009 01:30 tonight wrote: Yosh shouldn't be in TSL for this season because of what he did, but people saying stupid shit like "he's a douchebag" and "I've lost respect for him" that's just way out of line.
u srs?
Upon what do you base your respect if a person is dishonest? I'm not going to call him a douche bag or anything,, but seriously...this competition is for $10,000 and a spot in foreign SC history. It's clearly a lot bigger than you realize.
On December 14 2009 06:09 Triple7 wrote: I really don't think you should remove these people from the featured streams. Though I 100% agree with Grobo/Drone's logic ("All" the good players made it without abuse), and they do deserve to be knocked out of the TSL/lose respectability/etc., they still are good players who noobs (like me) can benefit from watching. Burying them amidst D+s makes them harder to find, and is unnecessary, in my opinion.
well seriously, why would teamliquid want to feature/promote streams for cheaters who have actually cheated in the biggest foreign tournament that is going on right now and even representing their website in general
On December 14 2009 06:09 Triple7 wrote: I really don't think you should remove these people from the featured streams. Though I 100% agree with Grobo/Drone's logic ("All" the good players made it without abuse), and they do deserve to be knocked out of the TSL/lose respectability/etc., they still are good players who noobs (like me) can benefit from watching. Burying them amidst D+s makes them harder to find, and is unnecessary, in my opinion. And SpaceDominator, stop vomiting gibberish.
There's more at stake than spectators of streams though. Just thinking of a few simple points here..
We have plenty of other good streamers. Also TL does not want to associate itself with cheaters. People who don't visit TL every day think streamers are a part of TL and when they hear we are featuring cheaters it is bad for our reputation. Lastly we need to do everything we can to create a deterrent for possible future cheaters. The more privileges they lose the less likely others will do it too.
On December 14 2009 05:56 ParanoiaDHerO wrote: I'm just happy we can all LOL at Yosh's 57-0, was tired of hearing about it. Idra could simply accomplish this by making a smurf and roflstomping his way to a perfect record.
Not sure why you think this changes anything about Yosh's skill level, he's still a damn good foreigner which makes the fact that he abused for two free wins and smurfed other players even more puzzling...
What happened to "Rules are meant to be broken"? ^_^ Anyway, just think it's funny that people goes all crazy-emo-nerdrage about some people that have "cheated". Good luck for the people that qualified! \o/
On December 14 2009 01:30 tonight wrote: Yosh shouldn't be in TSL for this season because of what he did, but people saying stupid shit like "he's a douchebag" and "I've lost respect for him" that's just way out of line.
take a step back and look at what you've just said ROFL fuck abusers, that includes yosh 0 respect
god I can't believe you people, seriously "this season"
On December 14 2009 01:40 SpaceDominator wrote: don't act as if you're some omnipotent moral individual too and would have acted in perfect accord either if you had a chance.
Think before you post, dude. I don't think anyone is actually thin-skinned enough to be offended by this particular bit of stupidity, but don't you think it's kind of idiotic to suppose that everyone who is shocked by the number of ladder abusers would have also abused, given the chance? You're not-so-indirectly insulting, well, basically everyone.
Interesting way to read into that comment and it was definitely not the intent. However, if all you're doing in a particular thread is complaining about the fact that someone else cheated and then proceed to go off on some random tangent accusing that individual of being a complete crook, what does that really tell you about that individual? Obviously I'm not vein enough to state that every single person that is "shocked by the number of ladder abusers would have also abused," it's not true. However, if all you're going to do is bitch and whine about others, you've sometimes got to look in the mirror and reflect about what YOU would do in that particular situation. That's it. It's not some back-handed comment insulting everyone.
I'm sure you didn't mean your comment that way, but saying "don't act like you're a moral individual that would have done the right thing" is pretty offensive. Just so you know. Edit: Hey I'm a vulture, watch out for my spider mines :D
On December 14 2009 06:44 Zeburial wrote: What happened to "Rules are meant to be broken"? ^_^ Anyway, just think it's funny that people goes all crazy-emo-nerdrage about some people that have "cheated". Good luck for the people that qualified! \o/
Technically, rules are meant to not be broken.
Besides, all the crazy-emo-nerdrage seems to be coming from the sympathizers so far.
yeah i remember when i did this shit in the last tsl people made it seem impossible. forgive these players the pressure probably got to them like it did to me..
On December 14 2009 09:01 MoOnrai11 wrote: yeah i remember when i did this shit in the last tsl people made it seem impossible. forgive these players the pressure probably got to them like it did to me..
Quit crying about `less good games`... the less cheaters there are the better the games will be because we know they are coming from people with legit skill who are willing to work hard instead of taking the easy road.
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
Who are you to decide that determined players are not allowed to qualify denying some less determined possibly stronger players? This is part of almost every sport and part of its fun too! I for instance dont mind having the ultra dedicated Mamon instead of a semi-dedicated Dimaga in the TSL. Cheaters seem to grant themself the right to be in the top48 based on there own picture of who should be in - this is not acceptable!
ie: South Korea made an amazing run in the 2002 football WC reaching rank 4. They were definitly not the 4th best team, but fought so hard pumped by playing in their own country that its been a pleasure to watch.
On December 14 2009 04:17 Liquid`NonY wrote: wow don't take the pussies complaining so seriously. Couldn't find opponents, didn't have enough time... Rofl these are the shittiest excuses being uttered by cheating poooooossies and you buy into it. zzzzzzz
Nony is right.
Screw everybody who tries to get in by cheating. This is 10,000 dollars we're talking about. Excuses are pathetic.
Obviously I suck at SC compared to A2, Dimaga, Yosh, etc. but at least I can say that I've never cheated.
And say what you will about Idra's bm, at least he's always played his games fairly.
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
Who are you to decide that determined players are not allowed to qualify denying some less determined possibly stronger players? This is part of almost every sport and part of its fun too! I for instance dont mind having the ultra dedicated Mamon instead of a semi-dedicated Dimaga in the TSL. Cheaters seem to grant themself the right to be in the top48 based on there own picture of who should be in - this is not acceptable!
ie: South Korea made an amazing run in the 2002 football WC reaching rank 4. They were definitly not the 4th best team, but fought so hard pumped by playing in their own country that its been a pleasure to watch.
Scan has pretty bad reputation even before he abused in TSL. We all know that he is not being fair player. Only a cheater or someone who is really stupid can ask for mercy to any abuser no matter if he has 100-0 record or 50-50 .
the fact the people cheat in 2-3 games only, does not really matter for the final standings makes me think that they have been doing this constantly... Hope admins do their job now and ban them from ICCUP and TL for at least 1 year !!!
from the other side in my opinion this tournament was really nice way to see who is cheater and who is not !!! I hope you realize that these abusers did not just learn how to cheat... I am sure most of them have done if before too and that is why they need to be banned!!!
A few days ago i saw SCAN on his stream showing the records he made 100-20 ; 85-11 or something like that and trying to make a big deal of his A- account with only ~11 losses. This guy is total disaster . Once he failed so bad in game against LzGamer. I mean that LzGamer asked him for re-game and that little abuser told him yes, sure , i will just restart my computer and then we will paly .. He was streaming at the same time and he did not restart .. he was watching the replay from that game ... Then he started playing with other people. Dumbest and most pity person i have ever seen ( SCAN - BF or whatever his nickname is )
Really nice job Admins!!! keep the good work and get all of them !
On December 14 2009 12:56 TheGladiator_BG wrote: This thread Make me LOL so much .
Scan has pretty bad reputation even before he abused in TSL. We all know that he is not being fair player. Only a cheater or someone who is really stupid can ask for mercy to any abuser no matter if he has 100-0 record or 50-50 .
the fact the people cheat in 2-3 games only, does not really matter for the final standings makes me think that they have been doing this constantly... Hope admins do their job now and ban them from ICCUP and TL for at least 1 year !!!
from the other side in my opinion this tournament was really nice way to see who is cheater and who is not !!! I hope you realize that these abusers did not just learn how to cheat... I am sure most of them have done if before too and that is why they need to be banned!!!
A few days ago i saw SCAN on his stream showing the records he made 100-20 ; 85-11 or something like that and trying to make a big deal of his A- account with only ~11 losses. This guy is total disaster . Once he failed so bad in game against LzGamer. I mean that LzGamer asked him for re-game and that little abuser told him yes, sure , i will just restart my computer and then we will paly .. He was streaming at the same time and he did not restart .. he was watching the replay from that game ... Then he started playing with other people. Dumbest and most pity person i have ever seen ( SCAN - BF or whatever his nickname is )
Really nice job Admins!!! keep the good work and get all of them !
Ye what a funny story... kid went west and was showing his friends the rep and never came back while i waited.. so.. obviously screw that kid.. he's a joke.. allways has been.. allways will be...
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
thats like saying this to a maphacker.
"Well I knew I was better than them, so I just wanted to end the game faster. I mean, I would have scouted them naturally, and still won, this just made it faster and better use of my time."
Guess what, its still cheating. ABUSING a system of rules at the benefit of yourself and the detriment of others is cheating. Convincing people to give up free wins to you, or the like is actually far worse in terms of a ladder situation than a maphacker.
Justifying the actions of cheaters is why they can continue to get away with this behaviour. THIS BEHAVIOUR should never be condoned, it should be shunned and people who have shown their true colours in this tournament now must pay a price of time before they can earn the respect and trust they once had back, if they can ever come back and not just be banned outright.
Anything less than that doesn't stop this behaviour in others, or send any real message to the community other than "its ok as long as you dont get caught, and even if you do, its a slap on the wrists."
I wonder what will happen to the "game theory" class Yosh is trying to help with at Berkley. Not only did he destroy his reputation but also the potential for sc to spread within Berkley as a legitimate class.
On December 14 2009 15:39 SniperVul5 wrote: I wonder what will happen to the "game theory" class Yosh is trying to help with at Berkley. Not only did he destroy his reputation but also the potential for sc to spread within Berkley as a legitimate class.
In my honest opinion? Nothing will happen to the class, as he's still an amazing Starcraft player. If I was in the class, I'd still want him teaching me.
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
thats like saying this to a maphacker.
"Well I knew I was better than them, so I just wanted to end the game faster. I mean, I would have scouted them naturally, and still won, this just made it faster and better use of my time."
Guess what, its still cheating. ABUSING a system of rules at the benefit of yourself and the detriment of others is cheating. Convincing people to give up free wins to you, or the like is actually far worse in terms of a ladder situation than a maphacker.
Justifying the actions of cheaters is why they can continue to get away with this behaviour. THIS BEHAVIOUR should never be condoned, it should be shunned and people who have shown their true colours in this tournament now must pay a price of time before they can earn the respect and trust they once had back, if they can ever come back and not just be banned outright.
Anything less than that doesn't stop this behaviour in others, or send any real message to the community other than "its ok as long as you dont get caught, and even if you do, its a slap on the wrists."
I agree that this behavior should be dealt with strictly ... but what ticks me off is that people even need something to be scared of at all. Is someone who plays straight just because he is too scared to play dirty someone we really want around in the first place? They still have the heart of a cheater ... you just don't get the opportunity to see it.
On December 14 2009 04:10 purgerinho wrote: i respect all of them as i did before this.. this abuse isn't like hacking (cheating) coz all of this players are good enough to be in top48.. all of them done that coz they thought they will not make it coz of the lack of time.. f91 had to be in top12 and in 4am he couldn't find an opponent.. advokate was offline around a week, reason couldn't find a player to play against, dimaga had no time and wanted to make sure....
if you play TSL you must live it... that format doesn't allow that the best players get the spot but there isn't ideal format.. i would just love to see TSL where TSL players can play only against TSL players, not koreans, not chinese, not someone that can be your friend...
thats like saying this to a maphacker.
"Well I knew I was better than them, so I just wanted to end the game faster. I mean, I would have scouted them naturally, and still won, this just made it faster and better use of my time."
Guess what, its still cheating. ABUSING a system of rules at the benefit of yourself and the detriment of others is cheating. Convincing people to give up free wins to you, or the like is actually far worse in terms of a ladder situation than a maphacker.
Justifying the actions of cheaters is why they can continue to get away with this behaviour. THIS BEHAVIOUR should never be condoned, it should be shunned and people who have shown their true colours in this tournament now must pay a price of time before they can earn the respect and trust they once had back, if they can ever come back and not just be banned outright.
Anything less than that doesn't stop this behaviour in others, or send any real message to the community other than "its ok as long as you dont get caught, and even if you do, its a slap on the wrists."
I agree that this behavior should be dealt with strictly ... but what ticks me off is that people even need something to be scared of at all. Is someone who plays straight just because he is too scared to play dirty someone we really want around in the first place? They still have the heart of a cheater ... you just don't get the opportunity to see it.
People need to grow some morality.
the latter d be nice, but as we ll never be able to trust everyone's morality I think scarying cheaters into playing according to the rules is acceptable. At least we can (hopefully) preserve conditions fair players dont feel urged/allowed to cheat "bcs everyone does it" this way. Pro cycling didnt manage such conditions and look at the mess it is in.
i just took a look at all of the TSL players yosh played on his alternate account... wow. wow is all i can say... people don't realize how big of a deal that is. a lot of players have builds they go normally in a bo3 or a playstyle that you can counter and having played them without them knowing who you are and then playing them again without them knowing you're the same person on the same map that you just played... it's a big deal.
really, it's as bad as hacking because you have obtained information about another player that they don't have, in all likelihood, through a method prohibited by the ladder you are participating in. it can be better than a maphack because not only do you likely know what they have right now (if they are going one of the builds you've already seen), you know where they might position their units, what reactions they will have to what you do, etc.
I find it hilarious how many of these so called good players, are so quick to abuse and cheat. This ladder and the recent iccup 'sting operation' on hackers has finally made it obvious how many people cheat on ladders and tourneys. Online play is a joke and it's kind of ridiculous for people to not expect shit like this. Thanks TSL and Iccup for the good work.
On December 15 2009 04:10 CharlieMurphy wrote: I find it hilarious how many of these so called good players, are so quick to abuse and cheat. This ladder and the recent iccup 'sting operation' on hackers has finally made it obvious how many people cheat on ladders and tourneys. Online play is a joke and it's kind of ridiculous for people to not expect shit like this. Thanks TSL and Iccup for the good work.
Lol i kind of agree with you, nowadays everything can happen, at least over the internet so.
On December 15 2009 04:10 CharlieMurphy wrote: I find it hilarious how many of these so called good players, are so quick to abuse and cheat. This ladder and the recent iccup 'sting operation' on hackers has finally made it obvious how many people cheat on ladders and tourneys. Online play is a joke and it's kind of ridiculous for people to not expect shit like this. Thanks TSL and Iccup for the good work.
Lol i kind of agree with you, nowadays everything can happen, at least over the internet so.
Also add that this is a league with a huge amount of money involved. Manner, respect and abiding the rules no matter what is no longer considered #1 priority when it comes to the end. It's really sad, thankfully we are a great community and the leaders and admins of this event are doing everything to make sure this IS the best foreign starcraft event ever.
There is no, and will never be, an excuse for cheating.
While I have no sympathy for cheaters, I think the present ladder format is too deregulated and leaves too much room for abuse. Although TL catching so many abusers, will probably significantly reduce the amount of cheaters if there is ever a TSL3, the cheating issue is pretty big anyways because it affects the positioning of the players that didn't cheat advantageously or disadvantageously depending on circumstance. While I realize that TSL is a "fun" tournament and the TL admin probably do not want it too regulated, I had some ideas that could be considered.
Three ideas:
Enforced penalty: Difficult to enforce completely but a clear penalty will be a deterrent. When people sign up for TSL, possibly make them electronically fill out paperwork that promises that they won't abuse. If they abuse, ban them from ICCUP and TL and blacklist them. They effectively lose their starcraft identity.
Automated pairing: Alot of the abuse stems from being able to choose your opponent. In most other sports, you aren't able to choose your opponent. If there's a third TSL, maybe R1CH with the help of ICCUP should make a bot that pairs players or something similar to wcIII. If it's a foreigner only tournament, maybe make it so TSL players can only play TSL players. If people want to play koreans, they can do so on another account because this is a foreigner only tournament and it doesn't really make sense to play koreans in a foreigner only tournament unless there are not enough people online. Its obviously best though if ICCUP is somehow updated to have a automated pairing system for all iccup players like wc3. Perhaps there can be an option to set up Bo5 with your friends for +100 points or something.
Regulations on playing time (shinygerbil's idea): Force everyone to play during certain times so there's no problem with not having enough people on the ladder that are playing TSL. Of course, there are logistic issues since TSL is global, but the skill level of iccup changes during the time of the day anyways. Maybe three time periods like 10am-2pm, 6pm-10pm, 2am-6am.
On December 13 2009 16:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Are we please going to move back to the days that cheaters are relentlessly harassed until after grueling periods of time they earn trust again.
Cause seriously, I would be pissed to see any of the big names in any major tournaments (or future TL ones) after all this. Just sickening.
What days were those? Because I seem to remember Elky and Smuft stealing money right out of this communitys pockets and people still love them lol. Not saying its right but we have always been a pretty relaxed community when it comes to this stuff. No one ever really gets black balled for long. Map hacking seems to be the only taboo BW players really get up in arms about. Look at Testies no matter what he does the first thing most people think when they see his name is "hacker"
Map hacking is a taboo, don't get me wrong. But seriously, look at what Testie had to do to get his name "cleared" to the point he could game. Yes people still think hacker at his name, but they can also appreciate the ability he had, as once he went legit and really worked his ass off he became one of the best players in the foreigner scene.
Then all the other known maphackers also got persecuted and booted from the community. The people who are abusing ladders are no different. Its arguably worse of a crime to abuse a ladder for free wins, than use a maphack and still have to earn it (although at an advantage). This is a slope that a tournament moderator can crack down on, but without a community really getting angry at it, rather than accepting it and going "well he had his reasons" nothing will change.
As for Elky and smuft, stealing cash. Yes it was douchebaggish and the like. Truth be told I still don't like smuft. Elky I respect for his ability at poker/sc, but past that I don't know how much he has changed, so hes still a douche in my eyes.
I just want to point out that even with hacking, it's only the really agregious offenses that stand out. Like with Testie, he was caught hacking maybe 3 or 4 or even 5 times after supposedly going clean. The amount of time it took for him to clear his name was well-deserved.
There are definitely different levels of bad just look at our law systems. Getting caught multiple times over prolonged periods is definitely on another level.
On December 15 2009 08:19 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: there should be a simple "no dodge" rule. Everyone on a TSL account on the same rank has to play if he gets asked up to a bo5 or so.
On December 15 2009 08:19 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: there should be a simple "no dodge" rule. Everyone on a TSL account on the same rank has to play if he gets asked up to a bo5 or so.
gay ass dodging!
So forcing players to play 97-1 koreans is fair?
Except you wouldn't be forced to play a 97-1 Korean, because they would not be on a TSL account.
edit: Perhaps I misread the intention of the original quote, however I took it as if a TSL player asks another TSL player, so I see where StorrZerg got his interpretation.
Automated pairing: Alot of the abuse stems from being able to choose your opponent. In most other sports, you aren't able to choose your opponent. If there's a third TSL, maybe R1CH with the help of ICCUP should make a bot that pairs players or something similar to wcIII. If it's a foreigner only tournament, maybe make it so TSL players can only play TSL players. If people want to play koreans, they can do so on another account because this is a foreigner only tournament and it doesn't really make sense to play koreans in a foreigner only tournament unless there are not enough people online. Its obviously best though if ICCUP is somehow updated to have a automated pairing system for all iccup players like wc3. Perhaps there can be an option to set up Bo5 with your friends for +100 points or something.
Problem with this is that there will be 1/20th as many games. Once someone is on top, they will never play again without a motivation to beat someone who is passing them. Once most people get to top 48, unless their goal is to continue playing to get to a better bracket or something, they are not going to play anyone again. Only players who are below top 48 can play one another to pass someone in the top 48, at which point that would motivate that player to play a bit to pass him, etc. There would be very little ladder movement if TSL could only play TSL. Losing points to someone else in the same competition is detrimental to your own position in the ladder as well as good for theirs.
Only way to solve this is to FORCE people to always play one another whenever they are on and someone else their rank asks for a game. Obvious you can't do that.
On December 15 2009 08:19 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: there should be a simple "no dodge" rule. Everyone on a TSL account on the same rank has to play if he gets asked up to a bo5 or so.
On December 15 2009 08:19 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: there should be a simple "no dodge" rule. Everyone on a TSL account on the same rank has to play if he gets asked up to a bo5 or so.
gay ass dodging!
so what happens when he says "i gtg" and leaves iccup. or the person says "i already have a game set up sorry" and just goes to find another opponent. you can't "force" someone to do anything. else abusing would have been eliminated a while ago.
The only people defending the abusers are the spectators and non-participants (basically the ones with nothing to lose).
You wouldn't be saying "but Yosh is such a nice guy!" if you had a legitimate chance of winning TSL. You'd be saying "some fucking abuser almost took my spot in the top 48 after I put in all those hours".
On December 15 2009 08:19 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: there should be a simple "no dodge" rule. Everyone on a TSL account on the same rank has to play if he gets asked up to a bo5 or so.
gay ass dodging!
so what happens when he says "i gtg" and leaves iccup.
or the person says "i already have a game set up sorry" and just goes to find another opponent.
you can't "force" someone to do anything. else abusing would have been eliminated a while ago.
If player A says: "I have to go" and leaves bnet you obviously can't play him. This is not dodging as he is not playing someone else instead of you.
If he already has set up a game, you are the next one to play. this would be only valid with other TSL challanges but it never hurts to use common sense (clan war match etc).
wtf "you can't "force" someone to do anything"", why don't you let all the rules go then? "you can't force someone not to use maphack, so why make a rule that maphack is forbidden" plz use your brain, ok?
the no dodge challange could be made via a website or so, so the challange is tracked and as soon as both players are online and the challanged player dodges (plays someone else than the chalangee) he gets punished.
Anyone can come up with a valid-sounding excuse for why they didn't play their assigned person. If admin try to crack down there are going to be a lot of tough judgment calls to be made.
On December 15 2009 19:36 motbob wrote: I'm having a hard time imagining a system that is
a) enforceable b) not a nightmare for admins
Anyone can come up with a valid-sounding excuse for why they didn't play their assigned person. If admin try to crack down there are going to be a lot of tough judgment calls to be made.
There is no "valid-sounding excuses". If you play someone else than the challangee you get a penalty (needs to be more than a loss and needs to grow). There is absolutly no excuse to not play someone.
As the situation is very clear (player A challanges player B) and player B plays someone else than A while he is online there are really no hard judgements to make.
The big benefit you get from a "no dodge" system is, that it "acts" during the ladder and is not messing up the ladder standing at the end of the ladder which is extremly bad as we can see right now.
The idea behind such a "no dodge" system is, that you have to do less admin work, because it is mostly a selfadministrating system as everyone can see when someone dodges.
On December 15 2009 19:36 motbob wrote: I'm having a hard time imagining a system that is
a) enforceable b) not a nightmare for admins
Anyone can come up with a valid-sounding excuse for why they didn't play their assigned person. If admin try to crack down there are going to be a lot of tough judgment calls to be made.
There is no "valid-sounding excuses". If you play someone else than the challangee you get a penalty (needs to be more than a loss and needs to grow). There is absolutly no excuse to not play someone.
As the situation is very clear (player A challanges player B) and player B plays someone else than A while he is online there are really no hard judgements to make.
The big benefit you get from a "no dodge" system is, that it "acts" during the ladder and is not messing up the ladder standing at the end of the ladder which is extremly bad as we can see right now.
The idea behind such a "no dodge" system is, that you have to do less admin work, because it is mostly a selfadministrating system as everyone can see when someone dodges.
This would be very sad for people that are just capable of taking the 40+ spots or so since all the top players will spam them for games all the time instead of spamming eachother. If you know a player has to play you, you simply chose an easy target. This would be really unfair to some players.
On December 15 2009 19:36 motbob wrote: I'm having a hard time imagining a system that is
a) enforceable b) not a nightmare for admins
Anyone can come up with a valid-sounding excuse for why they didn't play their assigned person. If admin try to crack down there are going to be a lot of tough judgment calls to be made.
There is no "valid-sounding excuses". If you play someone else than the challangee you get a penalty (needs to be more than a loss and needs to grow). There is absolutly no excuse to not play someone.
As the situation is very clear (player A challanges player B) and player B plays someone else than A while he is online there are really no hard judgements to make.
The big benefit you get from a "no dodge" system is, that it "acts" during the ladder and is not messing up the ladder standing at the end of the ladder which is extremly bad as we can see right now.
The idea behind such a "no dodge" system is, that you have to do less admin work, because it is mostly a selfadministrating system as everyone can see when someone dodges.
This would be very sad for people that are just capable of taking the 40+ spots or so since all the top players will spam them for games all the time instead of spamming eachother. If you know a player has to play you, you simply chose an easy target. This would be really unfair to some players.
as I said, this can easly be limited to a bo5 or so within 6 hours or 10 hours or whatever so no permanent spamming a specific opponent.
you CAN dodge higher or lower ranks. so top players bashing lower players simply wont happen.
the actual system is unfairer because good players get dodged, and after all, those are the ones who should get into the tourney, right?
EPT
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Gamtja[X] and ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/us.png)
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terran moves into the top 12. 
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