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TL Health and Fitness Initiative 2010 - Page 118

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eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
September 06 2010 06:59 GMT
#2341
On September 05 2010 21:57 NickC wrote:
I got to day 2 of gym

Squat - 35kg
Bench - 42.5kg
Chinups - forearm felt slightly sprained/strained instantly so stopped
Mpress - 20kg
Abs - 3x11 leg raises
Dumbell - 1x5 12.5kg then friend phoned so I had to leave

I am 6'2 and between 70 and 80kg, still havent checked.

Question: How much vitiman D should I take per day? I bought 90 pills, each are 12.5ug.
Question: Energies do you still take B6 and B12?

I cannot afford fish oil. It is rediculously expensive here (£15 a bottle etc).

Today's diet:
4 litres milk
A banana
Some sausages
A local shop sells 500kcal chocolate bars for 44p. Woot.
All-in-one vitiman pills (3x?)


Uhhh 12.5ug (*40) = 500 IU. That's not much. If you're not outside a lot I would recommend taking at least 5k IU. If you are then maybe 2k and see how you feel. I'm not outside much so I take about 10k IU. If you were outside naked on a sunny day you'd get about 10k IU in 20-30 minutes or so.

B vits are good.... if you aren't eating real foods. If you are then I wouldn't bother too much. Same with the all in one vitamins.

I buy nature's answer liquid fish oil. $15 bucks (~10 pounds) for 16oz which is not bad. I think international shipping is a flat rate maybe like $5 or something so it may be worth it for you if you're going to bulk order. "LOW052" if you want a $5 discount off an order.

http://www.iherb.com/search?kw=nature's answer fish (orange and lemon lime flavors)

Eat more real foods... meats/veggies/fruits if you can.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
terr13
Profile Joined April 2007
United States298 Posts
September 06 2010 09:48 GMT
#2342
Anyone have an idea for a program, I'm trying to work more on muscular endurance, stamina, and cutting down, while hopefully still having some gains in my lifts.
NickC
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
233 Posts
September 06 2010 13:05 GMT
#2343
thankyou both, i have no money in a card right now but will keep onto that link.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
September 06 2010 13:10 GMT
#2344
wtf is this (from SS book):

"It is possible, and quite likely, that skinny kids on this program will gain 10-15 lbs. of non-fat
bodyweight in the first 2 weeks of a good barbell training program, provided they eat well."

Rippetoe also thinks that its normal for someone who has a 140 lb max squat on Monday will have a 175 lb max squat on Friday of the same week.

Is this guy serious?
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 13:17:46
September 06 2010 13:13 GMT
#2345
Also, quick question to those on SS that I can't discern from reading the book: Ideally you fail on the 6th rep (which you don't do) of the last of your working sets each workout, right?

e.g. you benched 135 for your working sets last workout. You feel you could do up to 150 this workout, but if you did 150 you would only be able to do your 3 working sets x 5 reps exactly (i.e. you'd be training to failure on that last set, though you would just barely get all the reps). What weight would you put on the bar?
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
September 06 2010 14:29 GMT
#2346
On September 06 2010 22:10 cz wrote:
wtf is this (from SS book):

"It is possible, and quite likely, that skinny kids on this program will gain 10-15 lbs. of non-fat
bodyweight in the first 2 weeks of a good barbell training program, provided they eat well."

Rippetoe also thinks that its normal for someone who has a 140 lb max squat on Monday will have a 175 lb max squat on Friday of the same week.

Is this guy serious?


When it comes to training beginners, Rippetoe is the man. He is completely serious about the results that you can get if you eat well and challenge yourself on barbell lifts. Just remember, though, that what he is saying only applies to the super ectomorph kids; I've gone up from 185 to 202.4 on this program over the last eleven weeks... and my lifts have grown in ways that most people wouldn't even believe, but I haven't exactly put on 50 pounds of muscle. That is solely because I started at 185. Given, 17 pounds of weight gain--most of which is muscle--over eleven weeks for a person my size is pretty spectacular, and I have the program to thank for that.

I understand your desire to be skeptical upon seeing the results he promises, but honestly, he wouldn't put that in there if he couldn't deliver. He's not promoting some gimmicky fitness program or crappy equipment, but a solid weight lifting plan accompanied by a high-calorie diet.

As for your second question... the important thing to note is your starting point. Pyramid your way up on your lifts until the bar starts to slow down noticeably. This will be be your starting point. Do your 5x3, and then start adding weight every session (5-15 pounds depending on the lift; likely 5 for press and bench, 10 for squat until it starts to slow down, and 15 for dead). From there, work your way up slowly while keeping your form as good as possible. Before you know it your squat will be up 100 pounds with perfect form.

If you can't do a weight for 5x3 in a session, repeat it in the following session. If you can't do it again, try one more time in the next session. If you miss it yet again, reset the lift by 10%.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4758 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 15:37:58
September 06 2010 15:35 GMT
#2347
On September 06 2010 22:13 cz wrote:
Also, quick question to those on SS that I can't discern from reading the book: Ideally you fail on the 6th rep (which you don't do) of the last of your working sets each workout, right?

e.g. you benched 135 for your working sets last workout. You feel you could do up to 150 this workout, but if you did 150 you would only be able to do your 3 working sets x 5 reps exactly (i.e. you'd be training to failure on that last set, though you would just barely get all the reps). What weight would you put on the bar?


1. No. It is not your goal to reach your maximum 3x5 as fast as possible. It is your goal to work the weights up in a linear fashion (which means an increase in weight each work-out, as you probably know). As a beginner, you don't need to lift as much as possible as fast as possible. The linear progress prepares your body for higher volume, higher intensity, higher everything. Maxing out your 3x5 as fast as possible could cause you problems when you move on to the intermediate stage, because your body as a whole system has not enough experience, is not fully adapted to what you are doing. Therefore, your goal is not to lift a weight which you couldn't lift for a sixth rep, but linear progress.

2. If you did 135, do 140 next time. Even if you feel you could do more It will catch up to you very fast.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
NickC
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 17:07:04
September 06 2010 17:06 GMT
#2348
I went to the local chemists and bought:

180x vitamin B6 @ 10mg
They didn't have any B12s
More vitamin D because I'll run out fast
180x Omega 3 Fish Oil @ 1000mg EPA 180mg DHA 120mg

*tries to swallow one and succeeds*

I succeeded in swallowing one of these insanely large capsules :D Go me!
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
September 06 2010 17:32 GMT
#2349
ok, eshlooooooow

ive started planche work again. doing fingers pointing to the side, now. it's about as easy or maybe even easier to lift up than fingers pointing forward, but balance is definitely waaaay harder. instead of falling "back down" now, my concern seems to be "not falling forward on my face".

im also doing manna work again. im trying to do it fingers pointing backwards. and whereas i was doing pretty good (working on raising my hips up even farther) with fingers pointing forward... with fingers pointing back i cant-even-get-my-legs-off-the-freaking-ground

what the heeellll
what do i do to increase my fingers pointing back strength

ive taken to just doing l-sits with my fingers pointing back. is that a good starting point?
(even that is massively hard lol, but at least doable for 10sec or so).
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 18:07:45
September 06 2010 18:00 GMT
#2350
On September 06 2010 22:10 cz wrote:
wtf is this (from SS book):

"It is possible, and quite likely, that skinny kids on this program will gain 10-15 lbs. of non-fat
bodyweight in the first 2 weeks of a good barbell training program, provided they eat well."

Rippetoe also thinks that its normal for someone who has a 140 lb max squat on Monday will have a 175 lb max squat on Friday of the same week.

Is this guy serious?



Sounds reasonable with 5k+ calories/day for that training week. 140-170 in a week should be very doable with 10lb jumbs, 175 might be a little harder. Keep in mind though that the people who pull this off are people at Rip's gym being coached by him and performing the exercises nearly perfectly and eating heaps of texas bbq post workout.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
September 06 2010 18:24 GMT
#2351
This SS stuff is so obviously outright lies and bullshit that I'm going to do it and prove it's wrong. I'm going to go all out and show you that Rippetoes "gains" are complete lies. LOL, "10-15 lbs non-fat mass gain in two weeks. You best be trollin, Rippetoe.

Also the "how much to add" doesn't make sense. I still don't get whether to train to failure each session (but hitting the set/rep goals) or not. Also, pyramiding/etc is not Rippetoes for the novice: I just read the book and he suggested a very linear growth, adding as much as possible each workout. That suggests the ideal is training to failure each workout (else you could have added more weight that workout and hit your set/rep #s). But training to failure on the same workout 3x per week seems overdoing it.

Also, to the person who said "don't train to failure, train for progress," those two aren't mutually exclusive at all, so that doesn't really make sense as a mantra.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 18:37:04
September 06 2010 18:33 GMT
#2352
I'm also pretty sure a large part of these 10-15lb gains per workout come form changes in speed: form breaks down, the lift slows down. Honestly the gains promised are too big to be believed. 100lbs on your squat in 3 weeks? Not happening. I think I'm actually going to give this a shot, trying as hard as I can, just to prove its not possible. Honestly I can probably increase whatever my 5 rep max is with perfect form + fast speed by 20-25% just by having slightly worse form and much slower speed. I can pretty much guarantee that if I maintain form and speed the weight won't go up anywhere near as fast as Mark "Gym Troll" Rippetoe promises.
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 19:14:36
September 06 2010 19:06 GMT
#2353
I went from squating 50kg to 90kg in 3 weeks and that's ~90pounds increase. When I did it I also skipped two workouts and didn't have perfect form. So 100 pounds should be doable.

Edit: And yeah, I was back at the gym today after almost 2 weeks of rest. My knee feels good again and it didn't hurt when I squated. I've dropped 10kg in like every exercise but that's expected. I will hopefully be able to gain it back by the end of the week
NickC
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
233 Posts
September 06 2010 19:17 GMT
#2354
Form is emphasized with the highest priority in rippletoes afaik. You'll see insane gains when you're a real nub like me and can barely squat with the bar to begin with.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 19:25:46
September 06 2010 19:24 GMT
#2355
On September 07 2010 03:33 cz wrote:
I'm also pretty sure a large part of these 10-15lb gains per workout come form changes in speed: form breaks down, the lift slows down. Honestly the gains promised are too big to be believed. 100lbs on your squat in 3 weeks? Not happening. I think I'm actually going to give this a shot, trying as hard as I can, just to prove its not possible. Honestly I can probably increase whatever my 5 rep max is with perfect form + fast speed by 20-25% just by having slightly worse form and much slower speed. I can pretty much guarantee that if I maintain form and speed the weight won't go up anywhere near as fast as Mark "Gym Troll" Rippetoe promises.



lol, nobody is claiming 100lbs in 3 weeks, If you'd read the book thoroughly you'd realize that gains slow down over time. If somebody was hideously underweight and could barely squat more than the bar starting off, then yes this is possible, otherwise I'd say it's atypical. 30 the very first week of training properly with good form and eating is likely without accompanying breakdowns in form, but of course there will be a reduction in speed. This is going to take 5k calories/day minimum though. While your lifts will progress linearly, they are still subject to diminishing marginal returns. After the first week or two where the trainee put 30lbs on his 3x5 each week, he'll only be able to put on 15/week or so even eating the same or better than he did the previous week. He'll be able to keep this up for a few months and eventually only 10lbs/week will be possible, once again, keeping nutrition constant. This will keep up for a few months as well, and after this he'll have to move to intermediate programming and will probably only be able to add 5 per week.




On September 07 2010 03:24 cz wrote:
This SS stuff is so obviously outright lies and bullshit that I'm going to do it and prove it's wrong. I'm going to go all out and show you that Rippetoes "gains" are complete lies. LOL, "10-15 lbs non-fat mass gain in two weeks. You best be trollin, Rippetoe.

Also the "how much to add" doesn't make sense. I still don't get whether to train to failure each session (but hitting the set/rep goals) or not. Also, pyramiding/etc is not Rippetoes for the novice: I just read the book and he suggested a very linear growth, adding as much as possible each workout. That suggests the ideal is training to failure each workout (else you could have added more weight that workout and hit your set/rep #s). But training to failure on the same workout 3x per week seems overdoing it.

Also, to the person who said "don't train to failure, train for progress," those two aren't mutually exclusive at all, so that doesn't really make sense as a mantra.

You're looking into training to failure way too much. You do 3x5 and keep moving up the weight. If you start with a weight you're going to failure with on the 3rd set, you won't move the weight up as fast. Eventually you'll reach a point where each set is near failure but you don't want to delay getting to that point so that you can continually add weight to your worksets.

Here's an example for the doubters. An average 20 year old male who is being coached by rip, doing the program, and eating well enough could expect something similar to this: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=627

You're already approaching with a losing attitude. I don't think you care about improving, you care about proving Rippetoe wrong so you can justify going back to your bicept curl based routine. "HAH Rip was wrong, t-nation was right, SS is fake and worse than canceraids, time to go back to my bodybuilding split." Even if you're just trolling and don't care if Rip is right or wrong, there's a 95% chance you won't do the program correctly or won't eat enough. The exercises take some time getting the hang of without a coach and you won't be getting the most out of them.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
September 06 2010 19:37 GMT
#2356
The non-fat mass gain of 10-15 lbs in 3 weeks is a bit embellished, yes.

However, the gains on the squat are not. With total novice who are undereaters and underweighted they should be able to gain at least 5 if not up to 10 lbs of lean mass in 3 weeks amount of time from novice gains. Remember, "lean mass' constitutes a lot of things such as volumization of the muscles through addition of glycogen stores, actual hypertrophy of the muscles, additional density added to the bones, other connective tissue mass, and of course the actual sarcoplasmic and myofibril addition/
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 19:53:22
September 06 2010 19:48 GMT
#2357
On September 07 2010 04:24 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2010 03:33 cz wrote:
I'm also pretty sure a large part of these 10-15lb gains per workout come form changes in speed: form breaks down, the lift slows down. Honestly the gains promised are too big to be believed. 100lbs on your squat in 3 weeks? Not happening. I think I'm actually going to give this a shot, trying as hard as I can, just to prove its not possible. Honestly I can probably increase whatever my 5 rep max is with perfect form + fast speed by 20-25% just by having slightly worse form and much slower speed. I can pretty much guarantee that if I maintain form and speed the weight won't go up anywhere near as fast as Mark "Gym Troll" Rippetoe promises.



lol, nobody is claiming 100lbs in 3 weeks, If you'd read the book thoroughly you'd realize that gains slow down over time. If somebody was hideously underweight and could barely squat more than the bar starting off, then yes this is possible, otherwise I'd say it's atypical. 30 the very first week of training properly with good form and eating is likely without accompanying breakdowns in form, but of course there will be a reduction in speed. This is going to take 5k calories/day minimum though. While your lifts will progress linearly, they are still subject to diminishing marginal returns. After the first week or two where the trainee put 30lbs on his 3x5 each week, he'll only be able to put on 15/week or so even eating the same or better than he did the previous week. He'll be able to keep this up for a few months and eventually only 10lbs/week will be possible, once again, keeping nutrition constant. This will keep up for a few months as well, and after this he'll have to move to intermediate programming and will probably only be able to add 5 per week.




Show nested quote +
On September 07 2010 03:24 cz wrote:
This SS stuff is so obviously outright lies and bullshit that I'm going to do it and prove it's wrong. I'm going to go all out and show you that Rippetoes "gains" are complete lies. LOL, "10-15 lbs non-fat mass gain in two weeks. You best be trollin, Rippetoe.

Also the "how much to add" doesn't make sense. I still don't get whether to train to failure each session (but hitting the set/rep goals) or not. Also, pyramiding/etc is not Rippetoes for the novice: I just read the book and he suggested a very linear growth, adding as much as possible each workout. That suggests the ideal is training to failure each workout (else you could have added more weight that workout and hit your set/rep #s). But training to failure on the same workout 3x per week seems overdoing it.

Also, to the person who said "don't train to failure, train for progress," those two aren't mutually exclusive at all, so that doesn't really make sense as a mantra.

You're looking into training to failure way too much. You do 3x5 and keep moving up the weight. If you start with a weight you're going to failure with on the 3rd set, you won't move the weight up as fast. Eventually you'll reach a point where each set is near failure but you don't want to delay getting to that point so that you can continually add weight to your worksets.

Here's an example for the doubters. An average 20 year old male who is being coached by rip, doing the program, and eating well enough could expect something similar to this: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=627

You're already approaching with a losing attitude. I don't think you care about improving, you care about proving Rippetoe wrong so you can justify going back to your bicept curl based routine. "HAH Rip was wrong, t-nation was right, SS is fake and worse than canceraids, time to go back to my bodybuilding split." Even if you're just trolling and don't care if Rip is right or wrong, there's a 95% chance you won't do the program correctly or won't eat enough. The exercises take some time getting the hang of without a coach and you won't be getting the most out of them.


Won't be hard. I'll work on my form a bit and will eat enough, then I'll start adding serious weight to the bar as per Rippetoe's programming methods and see what happens.

As for training to failure or not, it's a serious and legitimate question. If I did 135 squatting last workout and could do 3x5 150 this workout (barely hitting 3x5), should I? Or should I choose 140, or 145? What is the basis for that decision? It's progression either way, it's just about how close to failure the optimal weight chose should be. It's a very basic programming question, and if you can't give a specific and reasoned answer you have no clue what you are doing in the gym.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 20:06:02
September 06 2010 20:03 GMT
#2358
On September 07 2010 04:48 cz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2010 04:24 Drowsy wrote:
On September 07 2010 03:33 cz wrote:
I'm also pretty sure a large part of these 10-15lb gains per workout come form changes in speed: form breaks down, the lift slows down. Honestly the gains promised are too big to be believed. 100lbs on your squat in 3 weeks? Not happening. I think I'm actually going to give this a shot, trying as hard as I can, just to prove its not possible. Honestly I can probably increase whatever my 5 rep max is with perfect form + fast speed by 20-25% just by having slightly worse form and much slower speed. I can pretty much guarantee that if I maintain form and speed the weight won't go up anywhere near as fast as Mark "Gym Troll" Rippetoe promises.



lol, nobody is claiming 100lbs in 3 weeks, If you'd read the book thoroughly you'd realize that gains slow down over time. If somebody was hideously underweight and could barely squat more than the bar starting off, then yes this is possible, otherwise I'd say it's atypical. 30 the very first week of training properly with good form and eating is likely without accompanying breakdowns in form, but of course there will be a reduction in speed. This is going to take 5k calories/day minimum though. While your lifts will progress linearly, they are still subject to diminishing marginal returns. After the first week or two where the trainee put 30lbs on his 3x5 each week, he'll only be able to put on 15/week or so even eating the same or better than he did the previous week. He'll be able to keep this up for a few months and eventually only 10lbs/week will be possible, once again, keeping nutrition constant. This will keep up for a few months as well, and after this he'll have to move to intermediate programming and will probably only be able to add 5 per week.




On September 07 2010 03:24 cz wrote:
This SS stuff is so obviously outright lies and bullshit that I'm going to do it and prove it's wrong. I'm going to go all out and show you that Rippetoes "gains" are complete lies. LOL, "10-15 lbs non-fat mass gain in two weeks. You best be trollin, Rippetoe.

Also the "how much to add" doesn't make sense. I still don't get whether to train to failure each session (but hitting the set/rep goals) or not. Also, pyramiding/etc is not Rippetoes for the novice: I just read the book and he suggested a very linear growth, adding as much as possible each workout. That suggests the ideal is training to failure each workout (else you could have added more weight that workout and hit your set/rep #s). But training to failure on the same workout 3x per week seems overdoing it.

Also, to the person who said "don't train to failure, train for progress," those two aren't mutually exclusive at all, so that doesn't really make sense as a mantra.

You're looking into training to failure way too much. You do 3x5 and keep moving up the weight. If you start with a weight you're going to failure with on the 3rd set, you won't move the weight up as fast. Eventually you'll reach a point where each set is near failure but you don't want to delay getting to that point so that you can continually add weight to your worksets.

Here's an example for the doubters. An average 20 year old male who is being coached by rip, doing the program, and eating well enough could expect something similar to this: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=627

You're already approaching with a losing attitude. I don't think you care about improving, you care about proving Rippetoe wrong so you can justify going back to your bicept curl based routine. "HAH Rip was wrong, t-nation was right, SS is fake and worse than canceraids, time to go back to my bodybuilding split." Even if you're just trolling and don't care if Rip is right or wrong, there's a 95% chance you won't do the program correctly or won't eat enough. The exercises take some time getting the hang of without a coach and you won't be getting the most out of them.


Won't be hard. I'll work on my form a bit and will eat enough, then I'll start adding serious weight to the bar as per Rippetoe's programming methods and see what happens.

As for training to failure or not, it's a serious and legitimate question. If I did 135 squatting last workout and could do 3x5 150 this workout (barely hitting 3x5), should I? Or should I choose 140, or 145? What is the basis for that decision? It's progression either way, it's just about how close to failure the optimal weight chose should be. It's a very basic programming question, and if you can't give a specific and reasoned answer you have no clue what you are doing in the gym.



It depends. How hard was the 135? What's your current bodyweight? How many calories were you able to eat between the day the 135 was done and the 150? Was your rest optimal? How was the form on the 135? If it were me and I got in a gallon of milk the day of the 135 and the day after as well as 2.5k calories on top of the milk and slept 9+ hours each day, I would probably go 150 unless the form was bad. My bodyweight would also play a factor, the more you weigh, the easier time you'll have making big jumps.
145 would be the "safe" bet assuming you're not like 100lbs bw, that's assuming you got a healthy 3.5k calories/day, rested 8 hours, and the weight was moderately hard, and you had decent form.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 21:10:35
September 06 2010 20:10 GMT
#2359
On September 07 2010 05:03 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2010 04:48 cz wrote:
On September 07 2010 04:24 Drowsy wrote:
On September 07 2010 03:33 cz wrote:
I'm also pretty sure a large part of these 10-15lb gains per workout come form changes in speed: form breaks down, the lift slows down. Honestly the gains promised are too big to be believed. 100lbs on your squat in 3 weeks? Not happening. I think I'm actually going to give this a shot, trying as hard as I can, just to prove its not possible. Honestly I can probably increase whatever my 5 rep max is with perfect form + fast speed by 20-25% just by having slightly worse form and much slower speed. I can pretty much guarantee that if I maintain form and speed the weight won't go up anywhere near as fast as Mark "Gym Troll" Rippetoe promises.



lol, nobody is claiming 100lbs in 3 weeks, If you'd read the book thoroughly you'd realize that gains slow down over time. If somebody was hideously underweight and could barely squat more than the bar starting off, then yes this is possible, otherwise I'd say it's atypical. 30 the very first week of training properly with good form and eating is likely without accompanying breakdowns in form, but of course there will be a reduction in speed. This is going to take 5k calories/day minimum though. While your lifts will progress linearly, they are still subject to diminishing marginal returns. After the first week or two where the trainee put 30lbs on his 3x5 each week, he'll only be able to put on 15/week or so even eating the same or better than he did the previous week. He'll be able to keep this up for a few months and eventually only 10lbs/week will be possible, once again, keeping nutrition constant. This will keep up for a few months as well, and after this he'll have to move to intermediate programming and will probably only be able to add 5 per week.




On September 07 2010 03:24 cz wrote:
This SS stuff is so obviously outright lies and bullshit that I'm going to do it and prove it's wrong. I'm going to go all out and show you that Rippetoes "gains" are complete lies. LOL, "10-15 lbs non-fat mass gain in two weeks. You best be trollin, Rippetoe.

Also the "how much to add" doesn't make sense. I still don't get whether to train to failure each session (but hitting the set/rep goals) or not. Also, pyramiding/etc is not Rippetoes for the novice: I just read the book and he suggested a very linear growth, adding as much as possible each workout. That suggests the ideal is training to failure each workout (else you could have added more weight that workout and hit your set/rep #s). But training to failure on the same workout 3x per week seems overdoing it.

Also, to the person who said "don't train to failure, train for progress," those two aren't mutually exclusive at all, so that doesn't really make sense as a mantra.

You're looking into training to failure way too much. You do 3x5 and keep moving up the weight. If you start with a weight you're going to failure with on the 3rd set, you won't move the weight up as fast. Eventually you'll reach a point where each set is near failure but you don't want to delay getting to that point so that you can continually add weight to your worksets.

Here's an example for the doubters. An average 20 year old male who is being coached by rip, doing the program, and eating well enough could expect something similar to this: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=627

You're already approaching with a losing attitude. I don't think you care about improving, you care about proving Rippetoe wrong so you can justify going back to your bicept curl based routine. "HAH Rip was wrong, t-nation was right, SS is fake and worse than canceraids, time to go back to my bodybuilding split." Even if you're just trolling and don't care if Rip is right or wrong, there's a 95% chance you won't do the program correctly or won't eat enough. The exercises take some time getting the hang of without a coach and you won't be getting the most out of them.


Won't be hard. I'll work on my form a bit and will eat enough, then I'll start adding serious weight to the bar as per Rippetoe's programming methods and see what happens.

As for training to failure or not, it's a serious and legitimate question. If I did 135 squatting last workout and could do 3x5 150 this workout (barely hitting 3x5), should I? Or should I choose 140, or 145? What is the basis for that decision? It's progression either way, it's just about how close to failure the optimal weight chose should be. It's a very basic programming question, and if you can't give a specific and reasoned answer you have no clue what you are doing in the gym.



It depends. How hard was the 135? What's your current bodyweight? How many calories were you able to eat between the day the 135 was done and the 150? Was your rest optimal? How was the form on the 135? If it were me and I got in a gallon of milk the day of the 135 and the day after as well as 2.5k calories on top of the milk and slept 9+ hours each day, I would probably go 150 unless the form was bad. My bodyweight would also play a factor, the more you weigh, the easier time you'll have making big jumps.
145 would be the "safe" bet assuming you're not like 100lbs bw, that's assuming you got a healthy 3.5k calories/day, rested 8 hours, and the weight was moderately hard, and you had decent form.


All the small questions don't really matter: I'm saying that I'm confident I could hit 150 lbs with good form for all the sets and reps, though not being able to do one more rep more on the last set (e.g. I'm doing it to failure). There is no need to worry about whether I'm rested enough or ate enough to determine what I could hit: I'm saying 150 is the max with good form and hitting all the sets and reps completely. So you are saying go for as much as you can do: ideally, choose a weight that you will lift to failure (but hitting all the sets and reps with perfect form). Is that correct?
NickC
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
233 Posts
September 06 2010 20:55 GMT
#2360
i think u shud push the boundaries all the time but if u do then be VERY aware when u are starting to fuck up

fuck up =
stalling due to overwork
bad form/disillusionment
doing sets like 2x5 1x4

i think "sensible practices" are put in place because the regular nub is VERY VERY easy to succumb to disillusionment , mistakes, overworking, overconfidence etc. so its written to er on the side of caution (if thats the right saying).
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