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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On May 09 2012 21:27 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 21:02 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:57 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 20:49 paschl wrote:
They can speak to eachother in whatever language they want. But they should use teamspeak/ventrilo/skype whatever, not ingame voice.
If you use the ingame voice speak english goddamnit. I dont speak german when i use it either. First, this is a diferent complaint. The original quote was about written text, and that is far less annoying than ingame voice spam. Some people in the ingame voice system annoy me even in english, voice spam is bad regardless of the language. It's not even that useful, you may have loud music on, a skype call with other people, etc. and not even be able to hear it very well. But still, I don't see the problem with just muting them. Skype requires you to add people individually, maybe they don't have easy acess to a vent/TS channel, maybe they just met on a random chat channel and/or don't feel like setting up a voice system for a quick match. I guess I just don't understand the "Speak and write in english or shut the fuck up" issue that so many people seem to have. The text chat is still really useful for communication, you use it for tons of useful information. Maybe less so on a lower level, and russian is different enough that you won't be looking constantly if someone is actually saying something useful, but still... part of becoming a better player is to properly look at and properly use the text chat to work with the team... which a bunch of people speaking another language messes up. Outside of that, it's just rude. If you're at a workplace and you and 4 other people are supposed to work on a project together, it's really rude if they start speaking in a language you don't understand, doesn't matter if they aren't actually talking about you. The thing is several people have a diferent aproach to the game. It's a AP pub, not a scrim or something. A lot of people don't care about what's best to "become a better player". To be honest, AP pubbing isn't exactly the way to go if that's your thing. No matter your MMR, it will be a low level game. It is a social game and sometimes you want to have some fun, talk to a friend while playing, try unorthodox builds or lane setups, etc. Obviously this brings issues when the rest of the team tries to take the game a little more seriously. From what i've heard, I guess the russian community seems a lot more relaxed about the way they played pubs in Dota 1, where you actually had split communities. You use a workplace comparison, they probally feel it's more like a few guys at a bar, with that weird outsider that's trying to kill the fun out of it. There is obviously people that don't take it seriously enough, but extremes are never good on both ends of the discussion. It's the same as the old "try hard" argument. Obviously trying hard isn't bad, but there is also a clear limit. You hardly ever see a full team picking lycan/furion/AM/panda/whatever combination of 5 heroes would be the best possible combination. AP is broken if a team does that and the game will just be awful for both parties, unless all you want is a stomp. Some people feel counter warding is try harding, or even just tri-laning is try-harding. Coming from a system where there where several diferent communities, each with diferent expectations and rules, where you could play a good game in an IH if you felt like it and pubs where just silly games to have some fun if that was your thing, to a system where almost everyone plays ladder will bring this kind of issues. About communication, a ping goes a long way. You don't have to discuss your teammates strategies/item builds/skill level/marriage status, etc. in a pub game, some people even get mad if you try it. Things like "QoP mid", "ss", "rune top" are universal. Some games you get a team with some synergy and you can try something more complicated, but taking it for granted only means you will get annoyed.
Well, that gives a decent perspective on it, but I'd still say that's in our favor who want to keep it in English. It's pretty terrible to get into a game and see 3 players speaking russian in the chat, thinking to yourself "Nice, I want to play dota, instead I get into an interactive russian chatroom with people dicking around." That's still rude. I used to play LoL in a similar way, VERY casual, just hanging out with my pals. However, WE used Skype and still used basic english communication in game to keep the other players engaged. That way we could talk about what we're doing this weekend etc, without the random players feeling akward.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On May 09 2012 21:26 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 21:17 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 09 2012 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 21:04 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 09 2012 21:02 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:57 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 20:49 paschl wrote:
They can speak to eachother in whatever language they want. But they should use teamspeak/ventrilo/skype whatever, not ingame voice.
If you use the ingame voice speak english goddamnit. I dont speak german when i use it either. First, this is a diferent complaint. The original quote was about written text, and that is far less annoying than ingame voice spam. Some people in the ingame voice system annoy me even in english, voice spam is bad regardless of the language. It's not even that useful, you may have loud music on, a skype call with other people, etc. and not even be able to hear it very well. But still, I don't see the problem with just muting them. Skype requires you to add people individually, maybe they don't have easy acess to a vent/TS channel, maybe they just met on a random chat channel and/or don't feel like setting up a voice system for a quick match. I guess I just don't understand the "Speak and write in english or shut the fuck up" issue that so many people seem to have. The text chat is still really useful for communication, you use it for tons of useful information. Maybe less so on a lower level, and russian is different enough that you won't be looking constantly if someone is actually saying something useful, but still... part of becoming a better player is to properly look at and properly use the text chat to work with the team... which a bunch of people speaking another language messes up. Outside of that, it's just rude. If you're at a workplace and you and 4 other people are supposed to work on a project together, it's really rude if they start speaking in a language you don't understand, doesn't matter if they aren't actually talking about you. This comparison doesn't work. It's not a workplace. In workplaces you are able to choose your group, and if your group then starts speaking another language then I fully agree that they are being rude. In this case, 4 of them were randomly put into a group with you. In that situation, majority wins. There are a billion workplaces where you're not allowed to choose your group. I don't get to pick the people I work with as a consultant, that's up to the company I'm at and what people they have on the project. People should just be considerate, how hard is it? They are playing a game, not sitting in Facebook chat, they have a random/a few random people who don't speak their language who are trying to work with them to beat the enemies, no need to shut them out and be rude. How are they being rude by speaking their own language? If their English is terrible, they won't feel comfortable to use it at all. Why shouldn't YOU be the considerate one, let them speak their own language, and try your best to communicate using pings and simple language like push, roshan, etc? Most Russians will understand that and appreciate your attempts to speak with them. Europe has a whole has English as a common language, EXCEPT for Russia. They also happen to have a huge community of their own that are forced to play on EU servers because there are no RU ones up. I fully expect Valve to eventually implement RU servers in the future, but until then, play nice ffs. They are rude because they have no reason to speak russian in the game chat. If they understand simple stuff like "push" or "roshan", that's what they should type, they shouldn't be talking in the game chat about what happened at Vladimirs crazy party last night etc. I'm not saying you have to write perfect English to play Dota on the EU server, I'm just saying that if you're going to be writing in the game chat, keep it to things which concern the game, and make sure it's somewhat understandable to the people in the game.
As long as there is one other Russian in the game for the first Russian to speak to, he has a reason to speak Russian in game chat. You don't have to be a part of their conversation, you can simply /ignore them. They are allowed to use game chat to talk between themselves.
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On May 09 2012 21:34 Velr wrote:
1: Who is actually using that Ingame-Voicechat? I don't know anyone and i never even had the idea to use it (in any game ever).
2: If your not with 5 guys from your own country/language --> english or silence. At least once the game starts, a bit of pregame banter is ok.
1: On EU server almost nobody uses it, but on NA there's always someone who prefers to use the voice chat over text chat.
2: I agree.
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On May 09 2012 21:27 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 21:02 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:57 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 20:49 paschl wrote:
They can speak to eachother in whatever language they want. But they should use teamspeak/ventrilo/skype whatever, not ingame voice.
If you use the ingame voice speak english goddamnit. I dont speak german when i use it either. First, this is a diferent complaint. The original quote was about written text, and that is far less annoying than ingame voice spam. Some people in the ingame voice system annoy me even in english, voice spam is bad regardless of the language. It's not even that useful, you may have loud music on, a skype call with other people, etc. and not even be able to hear it very well. But still, I don't see the problem with just muting them. Skype requires you to add people individually, maybe they don't have easy acess to a vent/TS channel, maybe they just met on a random chat channel and/or don't feel like setting up a voice system for a quick match. I guess I just don't understand the "Speak and write in english or shut the fuck up" issue that so many people seem to have. The text chat is still really useful for communication, you use it for tons of useful information. Maybe less so on a lower level, and russian is different enough that you won't be looking constantly if someone is actually saying something useful, but still... part of becoming a better player is to properly look at and properly use the text chat to work with the team... which a bunch of people speaking another language messes up. Outside of that, it's just rude. If you're at a workplace and you and 4 other people are supposed to work on a project together, it's really rude if they start speaking in a language you don't understand, doesn't matter if they aren't actually talking about you. The thing is several people have a diferent aproach to the game. It's a AP pub, not a scrim or something. A lot of people don't care about what's best to "become a better player". To be honest, AP pubbing isn't exactly the way to go if that's your thing. No matter your MMR, it will be a low level game. It is a social game and sometimes you want to have some fun, talk to a friend while playing, try unorthodox builds or lane setups, etc. Obviously this brings issues when the rest of the team tries to take the game a little more seriously. From what i've heard, I guess the russian community seems a lot more relaxed about the way they played pubs in Dota 1, where you actually had split communities. You use a workplace comparison, they probally feel it's more like a few guys at a bar, with that weird outsider that's trying to kill the fun out of it. There is obviously people that don't take it seriously enough, but extremes are never good on both ends of the discussion. It's the same as the old "try hard" argument. Obviously trying hard isn't bad, but there is also a clear limit. You hardly ever see a full team picking lycan/furion/AM/panda/whatever combination of 5 heroes would be the best possible combination. AP is broken if a team does that and the game will just be awful for both parties, unless all you want is a stomp. Some people feel counter warding is try harding, or even just tri-laning is try-harding. Coming from a system where there where several diferent communities, each with diferent expectations and rules, where you could play a good game in an IH if you felt like it and pubs where just silly games to have some fun if that was your thing, to a system where almost everyone plays ladder will bring this kind of issues. About communication, a ping goes a long way. You don't have to discuss your teammates strategies/item builds/skill level/marriage status, etc. in a pub game, some people even get mad if you try it. Things like "QoP mid", "ss", "rune top" are universal. Some games you get a team with some synergy and you can try something more complicated, but taking it for granted only means you will get annoyed.
So true...this is why I don't play AP. Only single draft, random draft and allrandom once they put it in -_-. AP has too much of a mixture of people messing around, people randoming heroes they have no clue about and try hards who take the game 100% serious and will only pick like from a pool of like 2-3 heroes every game. Invetably this mixture leads to a lot of flaming/raging/stomps for my liking.
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On May 09 2012 21:35 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 21:27 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 21:02 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:57 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 20:49 paschl wrote:
They can speak to eachother in whatever language they want. But they should use teamspeak/ventrilo/skype whatever, not ingame voice.
If you use the ingame voice speak english goddamnit. I dont speak german when i use it either. First, this is a diferent complaint. The original quote was about written text, and that is far less annoying than ingame voice spam. Some people in the ingame voice system annoy me even in english, voice spam is bad regardless of the language. It's not even that useful, you may have loud music on, a skype call with other people, etc. and not even be able to hear it very well. But still, I don't see the problem with just muting them. Skype requires you to add people individually, maybe they don't have easy acess to a vent/TS channel, maybe they just met on a random chat channel and/or don't feel like setting up a voice system for a quick match. I guess I just don't understand the "Speak and write in english or shut the fuck up" issue that so many people seem to have. The text chat is still really useful for communication, you use it for tons of useful information. Maybe less so on a lower level, and russian is different enough that you won't be looking constantly if someone is actually saying something useful, but still... part of becoming a better player is to properly look at and properly use the text chat to work with the team... which a bunch of people speaking another language messes up. Outside of that, it's just rude. If you're at a workplace and you and 4 other people are supposed to work on a project together, it's really rude if they start speaking in a language you don't understand, doesn't matter if they aren't actually talking about you. The thing is several people have a diferent aproach to the game. It's a AP pub, not a scrim or something. A lot of people don't care about what's best to "become a better player". To be honest, AP pubbing isn't exactly the way to go if that's your thing. No matter your MMR, it will be a low level game. It is a social game and sometimes you want to have some fun, talk to a friend while playing, try unorthodox builds or lane setups, etc. Obviously this brings issues when the rest of the team tries to take the game a little more seriously. From what i've heard, I guess the russian community seems a lot more relaxed about the way they played pubs in Dota 1, where you actually had split communities. You use a workplace comparison, they probally feel it's more like a few guys at a bar, with that weird outsider that's trying to kill the fun out of it. There is obviously people that don't take it seriously enough, but extremes are never good on both ends of the discussion. It's the same as the old "try hard" argument. Obviously trying hard isn't bad, but there is also a clear limit. You hardly ever see a full team picking lycan/furion/AM/panda/whatever combination of 5 heroes would be the best possible combination. AP is broken if a team does that and the game will just be awful for both parties, unless all you want is a stomp. Some people feel counter warding is try harding, or even just tri-laning is try-harding. Coming from a system where there where several diferent communities, each with diferent expectations and rules, where you could play a good game in an IH if you felt like it and pubs where just silly games to have some fun if that was your thing, to a system where almost everyone plays ladder will bring this kind of issues. About communication, a ping goes a long way. You don't have to discuss your teammates strategies/item builds/skill level/marriage status, etc. in a pub game, some people even get mad if you try it. Things like "QoP mid", "ss", "rune top" are universal. Some games you get a team with some synergy and you can try something more complicated, but taking it for granted only means you will get annoyed. Well, that gives a decent perspective on it, but I'd still say that's in our favor who want to keep it in English. It's pretty terrible to get into a game and see 3 players speaking russian in the chat, thinking to yourself "Nice, I want to play dota, instead I get into an interactive russian chatroom with people dicking around." That's still rude. I used to play LoL in a similar way, VERY casual, just hanging out with my pals. However, WE used Skype and still used basic english communication in game to keep the other players engaged. That way we could talk about what we're doing this weekend etc, without the random players feeling akward.
Well, you also are used to the notion that internet=english. I may be mistaken, but I believe that russians ussually have their own segregated communities for everything. Sort of like korean/foreigners in SC, where the foreigner scene speaks english but koreans have playxp, etc. where they have little to no contact with the "outside world", but maybe to a lesser extent. It makes sense that someone like us, used to websites like TL, used to the notion that english is the internet language, will try to speak english in an international game, while someone that is used to seeing cryllic all the time, everywhere, won't really see the problem with using russian while speaking to a fellow russian. I at least don't see a huge amount of russians in the international communities, but looking at stream numbers and the number of players ingame, it's obvious they are somewhere. Or maybe I just encountered too many russian hacking/warez sites and am a little bit biased in my conclusions.
I'll end by saying I also try to use english, don't use the ingame voice chat, etc., and I made a lot of assumptions that I'm not sure are correct, but that's kinda the point. You should try to look at the other side, maybe what makes sense to you doesn't make sense for someone else, and there can be very simple reasons for it. Maybe they are just assholes, some of them definatelly are, but you shouldn't just jump to that conclusion every single time, specially when there is a quick button that can help you cope with it.
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On May 09 2012 22:09 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 21:26 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 21:17 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 09 2012 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 21:04 Firebolt145 wrote:On May 09 2012 21:02 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:57 SKC wrote:On May 09 2012 20:49 paschl wrote:
They can speak to eachother in whatever language they want. But they should use teamspeak/ventrilo/skype whatever, not ingame voice.
If you use the ingame voice speak english goddamnit. I dont speak german when i use it either. First, this is a diferent complaint. The original quote was about written text, and that is far less annoying than ingame voice spam. Some people in the ingame voice system annoy me even in english, voice spam is bad regardless of the language. It's not even that useful, you may have loud music on, a skype call with other people, etc. and not even be able to hear it very well. But still, I don't see the problem with just muting them. Skype requires you to add people individually, maybe they don't have easy acess to a vent/TS channel, maybe they just met on a random chat channel and/or don't feel like setting up a voice system for a quick match. I guess I just don't understand the "Speak and write in english or shut the fuck up" issue that so many people seem to have. The text chat is still really useful for communication, you use it for tons of useful information. Maybe less so on a lower level, and russian is different enough that you won't be looking constantly if someone is actually saying something useful, but still... part of becoming a better player is to properly look at and properly use the text chat to work with the team... which a bunch of people speaking another language messes up. Outside of that, it's just rude. If you're at a workplace and you and 4 other people are supposed to work on a project together, it's really rude if they start speaking in a language you don't understand, doesn't matter if they aren't actually talking about you. This comparison doesn't work. It's not a workplace. In workplaces you are able to choose your group, and if your group then starts speaking another language then I fully agree that they are being rude. In this case, 4 of them were randomly put into a group with you. In that situation, majority wins. There are a billion workplaces where you're not allowed to choose your group. I don't get to pick the people I work with as a consultant, that's up to the company I'm at and what people they have on the project. People should just be considerate, how hard is it? They are playing a game, not sitting in Facebook chat, they have a random/a few random people who don't speak their language who are trying to work with them to beat the enemies, no need to shut them out and be rude. How are they being rude by speaking their own language? If their English is terrible, they won't feel comfortable to use it at all. Why shouldn't YOU be the considerate one, let them speak their own language, and try your best to communicate using pings and simple language like push, roshan, etc? Most Russians will understand that and appreciate your attempts to speak with them. Europe has a whole has English as a common language, EXCEPT for Russia. They also happen to have a huge community of their own that are forced to play on EU servers because there are no RU ones up. I fully expect Valve to eventually implement RU servers in the future, but until then, play nice ffs. They are rude because they have no reason to speak russian in the game chat. If they understand simple stuff like "push" or "roshan", that's what they should type, they shouldn't be talking in the game chat about what happened at Vladimirs crazy party last night etc. I'm not saying you have to write perfect English to play Dota on the EU server, I'm just saying that if you're going to be writing in the game chat, keep it to things which concern the game, and make sure it's somewhat understandable to the people in the game. As long as there is one other Russian in the game for the first Russian to speak to, he has a reason to speak Russian in game chat. You don't have to be a part of their conversation, you can simply /ignore them. They are allowed to use game chat to talk between themselves.
I disagree. People who talk about personal stuff in game chat are like people in WoW who have private discussions in the General chat. They need to stop doing that and go into a party chat, whisper or their own chat channel because it interests NO ONE else and is annoying. The game chat is there for team communication, not for two people who blabber away in a language no one else understands.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
How do you know that they're not talking about the game?
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This seems silly. If two people want to talk to each other in their own language they shouldn't have to type in chat or get their own ts channel to do it. Ingame chat was made for that exact purpose. Firebolt is right, just mute them.
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On May 09 2012 22:59 Firebolt145 wrote:
How do you know that they're not talking about the game?
I don't, since they are talking a language I don't understand, that's sorta the point. If they are discussing how we should play, they should do it in a language "we" understand. Just like blizzard has rules stating you should speak the official language for the realm in General in WoW, we need similar rules in Dota 2 (which is what I said from the start). It's just a beta right now and like you said, it's probable that there will be a russia-specific server later... unlike you though, I feel they should be the one playing nice until then, not the rest of all europeans.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
So there are 2 English and 3 Russians in a team. The 2 English are speaking to each other about the game and their strats and the Russians don't understand them. Should the English shut the fuck up?
There is NO rule ANYWHERE that says 'EU's language is English'. Until there is, people should stop whining about it.
I fully support suggestions that Valve should set up a Russian server, but I cannot believe that people are campaigning for the Russian language to be banned or whatever nonsense.
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On May 09 2012 20:42 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 20:21 Firebolt145 wrote:
If it's just 1 russian speaking to the rest of you in russian, then yeah he should stop (though you could just ignore him). If it's multiple russians speaking within themselves, then they have full right to speak within themselves in russian. Last I checked, part of Russia are in Europe. There is no rule anywhere that says 'you must only speak English on this server'. There should be though. It's a game based on communication and teamplay, and the server is for all of Europe, and last time I checked, the common language for the majority of Europe is definitely English. If they want to chatter in Russian, they should play 5man premade or play russian inhouse. Or simply shut up and stick to skype or something, it's really annoying to have a bunch of unintelligable stuff in chat.
Actually, its german :p
there are more people speaking german than english (as their first language that is so i understand your point but i'm french so i hate england. fuck i hate germany too)
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On May 10 2012 00:09 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 20:42 Tobberoth wrote:On May 09 2012 20:21 Firebolt145 wrote:
If it's just 1 russian speaking to the rest of you in russian, then yeah he should stop (though you could just ignore him). If it's multiple russians speaking within themselves, then they have full right to speak within themselves in russian. Last I checked, part of Russia are in Europe. There is no rule anywhere that says 'you must only speak English on this server'. There should be though. It's a game based on communication and teamplay, and the server is for all of Europe, and last time I checked, the common language for the majority of Europe is definitely English. If they want to chatter in Russian, they should play 5man premade or play russian inhouse. Or simply shut up and stick to skype or something, it's really annoying to have a bunch of unintelligable stuff in chat. Actually, its german :p there are more people speaking german than english (as their first language that is so i understand your point but i'm french so i hate england. fuck i hate germany too)
More people speak german natively, but not as a common language. If you take everyone who understands rudimentary English and everyone who understands rudimentary german, I'm sure English would far outweigh German as a common language.
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On May 09 2012 23:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is NO rule ANYWHERE that says 'EU's language is English'. Until there is, people should stop whining about it.
That's exactly WHY people are whining about it, saying there SHOULD be such a rule.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On May 10 2012 00:37 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
There is NO rule ANYWHERE that says 'EU's language is English'. Until there is, people should stop whining about it. That's exactly WHY people are whining about it, saying there SHOULD be such a rule.
No there shouldn't. Because all of a sudden that rule will fuck over all the Russians that cannot speak English, and that simply isn't fair.
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As frustrating as it is sometimes, Dota2 is an international game and people of all languages should have the right to play and speak in their own language. Should their be more server regions to alleviate multilingual teams that can't communicate? Sure, but banning all languages other than English? Ridiculous
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Just played with the biggest asshole on earth: randoms Tinker, goes mid against Pudge. Feeds Pudge, then afks, but not quite, so he doesn't get an abandon. Then he buys couriers and sends them to die. And I get the feeling that he won't get banned, like all the other shitheads I reported.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Yeah I've come across one naix who started feeding couriers repeatedly to the opponents about 10 minutes into the game. Icefrog needs to implement something to prevent that, it's too easy to ruin a game like that.
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yea the courier thing happend to me to in a game a month or so ago, funny thing is we still somehow managed to win that game anyway lol.
and to stay on topic:
it isnt fun playing AA mid against broodmother and at the same time try to deal with both the other lanes crying out for ganks.
sometimes I wonder what the hell people is thinking with.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c9JjS.png)
... I was speechless. Last pick wants to get am. So i'm sacarstic 'yeah plz pick am, we don't have enough carry' and wtf does he do? he picks it. then proceeds to have 800hp at 30min. YA GREAT BOY
(we lost)
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EPT
