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On January 17 2012 09:15 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:01 Neurosis wrote:On January 17 2012 08:46 Medrea wrote:On January 17 2012 08:05 Neurosis wrote:On January 17 2012 07:50 ashLoo wrote:
Anyone have any negative feedback for the Steelseries Sensei? Just wondering if there is any as I've already asked a handful of CS 1.6 and CS:S pro's and have found none thus far. Sensei has hardware acceleration that you can't get rid of. If you're looking for a mouse without a major flaw you won't find one, it doesn't exist yet. MX 518 or 518 legacy and Intellimouse exist and have nothing stupid. Neither feature insane DPI though so if you NEED 3600 DPI for whatever reason, I dunno heart monitor, then these wont work. Although I dont think you can adjust the DPI on the intellimouse, which leaves just the MX 518 in my eyes. I think the G500 and the G400 continue the legacy though. mx518 has prediction. So does every single mouse in existence. Point? Prediction is a necessity or the mousing experience is awful as the cursor jumps at every thread.
Not every mouse has prediction, not sure what you're talking about. http://www.overclock.net/t/1151416/mouse-prediction-question
For instance, I'm pretty sure deathadder doesn't have prediction.
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On January 17 2012 09:36 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 09:15 Medrea wrote:On January 17 2012 09:01 Neurosis wrote:On January 17 2012 08:46 Medrea wrote:On January 17 2012 08:05 Neurosis wrote:On January 17 2012 07:50 ashLoo wrote:
Anyone have any negative feedback for the Steelseries Sensei? Just wondering if there is any as I've already asked a handful of CS 1.6 and CS:S pro's and have found none thus far. Sensei has hardware acceleration that you can't get rid of. If you're looking for a mouse without a major flaw you won't find one, it doesn't exist yet. MX 518 or 518 legacy and Intellimouse exist and have nothing stupid. Neither feature insane DPI though so if you NEED 3600 DPI for whatever reason, I dunno heart monitor, then these wont work. Although I dont think you can adjust the DPI on the intellimouse, which leaves just the MX 518 in my eyes. I think the G500 and the G400 continue the legacy though. mx518 has prediction. So does every single mouse in existence. Point? Prediction is a necessity or the mousing experience is awful as the cursor jumps at every thread. Not every mouse has prediction, not sure what you're talking about. http://www.overclock.net/t/1151416/mouse-prediction-questionFor instance, I'm pretty sure deathadder doesn't have prediction.
Yes it has prediction. Every single modern optical mouse has prediction. A mouse has to have prediction in order to fill in the blanks between going from point A to point B and to make sure surface problems are ironed out.
You can have too much prediction yes. The MX518 1800 DPI has more prediction than its 1600 legacy variant. But you cant have none. If you want zero prediction you might as well go to McDonalds or whatever and buy a trash 5 dollar McMouse because your mousing is gonna be garbage anyway.
In order to avoid too much prediction in your mousing experience, the polling rate has to be raised. That way the mouse has to predict less. Make sense? I have a picture somewhere that demonstrats it. Found on that exact same website in fact.
if you poll a 518 to 1khz its perfect.
EDIT: Found the article.
http://www.overclock.net/t/771171/which-mouse-has-no-accel-correction-etc/60
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![[image loading]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/turbosupercharger/image005.png)
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There's prediction, and there's prediction. Basically, a mouse sends periodic signals to your computer updating the coordinates it reads. The coordinates it reads periodically. As in not constantly. Therefore, in order to provide fluid motion for your cursor, the mouse or its drivers predicts your mouse's movement.
Fun math word problems! You do use them in the real world!
If you move your mouse in a straight line from pixel (100,100) to pixel (100,120) and the mouse polls (reports its position) four times during that movement, the mouse only has zero prediction when the cursor is at pixel coordinates (100,100), (100,105), (100,110), (100,115), and (100,120) - the starting point and the four polling reports during and at the end of the movement.
But, your computer does not show your mouse jumping multiple pixels at a time, appearing to move in small "teleports," as it would if there was zero prediction. Instead, the mouse appears to move smoothly & fluidly, in this case correctly predicting a straight line but in actual fact using "prediction" when you see the mouse cursor moving through pixel coordinates (100,101), (100,102), (100,103), (100,104), etc.
This is why increasing the polling rate reduces prediction - the software only has to guess for shorter "jumps", rather than the longer jumps it has to guess if it reports less often. But prediction is necessary to the appearance of a fluidly moving cursor. For every mouse, laser and optical.
When most people say a mouse has "no prediction" the mean it works as above - but EVERY mouse still uses prediction. When some gamers consider it to be a problem is when software or hardware tries to 'correct' unsteady movements by the mouse user. For instance, let us say that a high prediction mouse assumes the user wants the cursor to move in a line from pixel coordinates (100,100) to (100,120). However, the starting point and the four polling points actually report as: (100,100), (101,105), (99,110), (102, 115), (98,120). Note the changes in the X-axis. A mouse with medium or high prediction will still move the cursor in a straight line from (100,100) to (100,120). This is the prediction gamers hate, because they (sometimes falsely, sometimes accurately) assume that prediction will cause them to be a few pixels off their intended target.
One of the problems in testing, however, is that since people are not 100% accurate in their aim, it is really hard to tell which mice has only the first, necessary type of prediction, and which mice employ the added layer of prediction following.
Note: I typed this in part to explain it to myself. If I'm wrong on the basic concepts described here, please correct me.
Speaking of which, anyone know if a Naos 3200 at 1000mhz (max) polling rate needs to worry about the second kind of prediction? 
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Prediction gets logarithmically less egregious the more polling rate you add.
Both kinds I guess. I refuse to acknowledge prediction as a means of tooling the users actions. That is just something else that needs a new definition. Fortunately it is on its way out permanently. We need accel to do the same now.
At base 125hz the lining phenomenon of the later 518 is a little much. At 1k (which is actually over the 518's update rate of around 700) the angling issues are pretty much gone. You will find this happens in pretty much every mouse. So yeah, your mouse should be fine. It would have to have an enormous amount of tooling to screw it up.
But if you are looking for a mouse "benchmark." THIS is the one. Polling rate. Not DPI. DPI is trash for benching a mouse.
And you know what sucks? Polling rate is governed by the motherboard! Not the mouse. The mouse has an update rate but without an accomodating motherboard, the mouse manufacturer doesnt have shit! Fortunately most modern motherboard have 1khz options (an older motherboard will freeze above 500hz). But 1k is the max unless I am missing something.
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Hmm so I patched my 1600 dpi mx518 to run at 1k polling rate but I've noticed it bounces around erratically when testing with mouserate. It rarely ever hits or stays around 1000hz, is that normal?
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On January 17 2012 11:24 Neurosis wrote:
Hmm so I patched my 1600 dpi mx518 to run at 1k polling rate but I've noticed it bounces around erratically when testing with mouserate. It rarely ever hits or stays around 1000hz, is that normal?
Yeah it should look something like this
+ Show Spoiler +
The update rate of the actual mouse isnt 1k. Thats why you get the errant 500hz. The mouse simply wasnt ready when the motherboard prompted for input.
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So is it still better to set it at 1k or should I just set it at 500?
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1k. Overpolling a device doesnt introduce any problems.
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On January 17 2012 03:50 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:38 lisward wrote:On January 16 2012 21:26 poofie wrote:
I would like to upgrade to another mouse now but i don't know which one.
The Kana was looking awesome because i use MS IE 1.1 at the moment and the Kana is ment to be 1.1 v2 i guess but since the Kana seems to have some issues what mouse do you guys recommend?
Since i've been using MS 1.1 for like forever, it's hard to change mouse, i've tried Xai but it felt so plastic and the sensor was shit tbh. And btw i'm using palm grip. Kana's good to go except for the shitty plastic feet. The sensor issues have been fixed, I think that the reports of the sensor issues are from people who bought the earlier batch, if you notice from the reports on overclock.net they bought the Kana pre-release, so it was probably the beta build, because according to a lot of people who bought the mouse after it released from bigger retailers they didn't have the mouse jump bug. I own a kana and I don't have the mouse jump bug as well. Did they fix the poor accuracy at 1600 dpi? Can you compare tracking at 800 and 1600 dpi on your Kana then post the results?
Eh there was never really poor accuracy at 1600dpi, just the pixel jump bug in the early editions, which people initially theorized only happened at higher DPI's, but realized that it actually happen at all DPIs be it high or low. Oh yeah some people had crappy accuracy with the pre-release version too, but it's fine in the subsequent batches, I play at 1600dpi also.
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Thanks for the lesson Medrea. I shall rest comfortably in the knowledge I have the best possible mouse for me.
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On January 17 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:
Thanks for the lesson Medrea. I shall rest comfortably in the knowledge I have the best possible mouse for me.
Yeah if you have an MX518, or a legacy MX518, no point in upgrading yet. I think 1800/1600 DPI is a lot, I only use 850 DPI personally. At 850 DPI I can mouse all over my 1680*1050 screen without lifting the mouse up.
Gamers have stood by it for years and years and with good reason.
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Pointless Tribalism:
Pfft. Mionix Naos 3200 Woot! Woot!
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Right well I mean.
The tricky part is finding a mouse that isnt fucked up, modern mouse manufacturers seem to be taking turns to see who can screw up a mouse more.
All a mouse needs to be good, is no glaring flaws like acceleration, or skipping, and to have adjustable DPI.
Thats just about it. Once you find one of these, hold onto it for dear life.
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On January 17 2012 13:38 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:
Thanks for the lesson Medrea. I shall rest comfortably in the knowledge I have the best possible mouse for me. Yeah if you have an MX518, or a legacy MX518, no point in upgrading yet. I think 1800/1600 DPI is a lot, I only use 850 DPI personally. At 850 DPI I can mouse all over my 1680*1050 screen without lifting the mouse up. Gamers have stood by it for years and years and with good reason. Actually, the latest G400s (since PID#LZ13333) no longer have prediction enabled. Just look for "LOGITECH" printed on the sticker seals; a box containing a G400 with prediction will have nothing printed on the seals.
I would consider that an upgrade. 
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On January 17 2012 16:27 snexwang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 13:38 Medrea wrote:On January 17 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:
Thanks for the lesson Medrea. I shall rest comfortably in the knowledge I have the best possible mouse for me. Yeah if you have an MX518, or a legacy MX518, no point in upgrading yet. I think 1800/1600 DPI is a lot, I only use 850 DPI personally. At 850 DPI I can mouse all over my 1680*1050 screen without lifting the mouse up. Gamers have stood by it for years and years and with good reason. Actually, the latest G400s (since PID#LZ13333) no longer have prediction enabled. Just look for "LOGITECH" printed on the sticker seals; a box containing a G400 with prediction will have nothing printed on the seals. I would consider that an upgrade.
Heh, I just got done saying prediction is required. I think you mean that it has had its prediction toned down. Which can be good or bad.
Remember that gamers have reviled the word "prediction" to be wholly evil. So to avoid bad marketing developers will do stupid shit.
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On January 17 2012 16:41 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 16:27 snexwang wrote:On January 17 2012 13:38 Medrea wrote:On January 17 2012 13:24 MisterFred wrote:
Thanks for the lesson Medrea. I shall rest comfortably in the knowledge I have the best possible mouse for me. Yeah if you have an MX518, or a legacy MX518, no point in upgrading yet. I think 1800/1600 DPI is a lot, I only use 850 DPI personally. At 850 DPI I can mouse all over my 1680*1050 screen without lifting the mouse up. Gamers have stood by it for years and years and with good reason. Actually, the latest G400s (since PID#LZ13333) no longer have prediction enabled. Just look for "LOGITECH" printed on the sticker seals; a box containing a G400 with prediction will have nothing printed on the seals. I would consider that an upgrade. Heh, I just got done saying prediction is required. I think you mean that it has had its prediction toned down. Which can be good or bad. Remember that gamers have reviled the word "prediction" to be wholly evil. So to avoid bad marketing developers will do stupid shit. Yeah, sorry. But you know what I mean.
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Hence the polling rate increase of 1k to the default requested amount of 125.
All 125hz polled mice have a lot of prediction. You can make a 1 degree line with an MX518. But not at 125. Prediction issues are largely an issue of the past.
Remember that up until a couple generations ago if you forced your motherboard to poll at 1k, your system would simply lock up.
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On January 17 2012 12:11 Medrea wrote:
1k. Overpolling a device doesnt introduce any problems.
Overpolling can result in a framerate drop (if you've got a weak pc). That's one of the reasons why many players prefer 500 to 1000 hz.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/skipless%206_11.png)
