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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 00:41 Black Gun wrote:On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis? unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers. the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration. basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip. The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.I've owned 3 PTE mice. 1 Razer, 1 Genius and 1 Coolermaster. They all had this problem on my soft mouse pad. Logitech on the other hand is great, the latest Avago has no acceleration or prediction. Providing you turn them off like you say. I also have a friend who owned an Abyssus where the plastic housing under the left click button came loose and made it extremely frustrating to use. It's not just the sensor, the whole deal is bad with Razer. The only reason people buy them is because of the marketing "for gamers by gamers" crap. It worked on me too, that's why I bought mine. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm tryinig to prevent people from making the same. They are just honestly the cheapest made and worst designed (sup RSI) products you could possibly get.
I use a Steelseries QCK Mini mousepad, soft cloth. My Razer Copperhead, Salmosa, and Abyssus don't move a single pixel when I click any buttons (including wheel), even if I pound the buttons rapidly at 3500 DPI on the Abyssus. Also never had problems with anything coming loose. I won't deny that some people will have problems, but after five years of Starcraft I've never had a problem. I also have no issues lifting and moving the mouse.
I will agree that Logitech is great, but Razer is not nearly as bad as you're putting it.
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Its so good how much people know about this stuff on this forum.
I recently bought a SteelSeries Xai that I have been quite happy with and I do feel like its a good mouse. I have noticed some problems with its tracking particularly on the Y axis, after reading this thread it might be attributed to the fact that I'm using it at about 17/1800ish dpi. I might just lower it down a notch.
The problem feels like the tracking hits a wall or something, other problems might be my mouse pad which is pretty old and dirty now. Its some kind of Razer Goliahtus or something.
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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.
I had this problem on my lachesis but I recently got a death adder and no longer have this problem. Maybe they fixed it?
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On November 29 2010 11:25 velo wrote:
Its so good how much people know about this stuff on this forum.
I recently bought a SteelSeries Xai that I have been quite happy with and I do feel like its a good mouse. I have noticed some problems with its tracking particularly on the Y axis, after reading this thread it might be attributed to the fact that I'm using it at about 17/1800ish dpi. I might just lower it down a notch.
The problem feels like the tracking hits a wall or something, other problems might be my mouse pad which is pretty old and dirty now. Its some kind of Razer Goliahtus or something.
the avago 9500 sensor, which is the one built in in the xai, is very sensible to dust. it only works well on a really clean surface.
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abyssus. its more affordable and everything u need. you dont need side buttons or any of that crap, its all the high tech tracking etc u want packaged into a simple design, perfect for RTS imo.
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On November 29 2010 13:52 Subversion wrote:
abyssus. its more affordable and everything u need. you dont need side buttons or any of that crap, its all the high tech tracking etc u want packaged into a simple design, perfect for RTS imo.
technically u might be right, but i still disagree strongly. who uses his mouse exclusively for gaming? everyone of us is surfing the web all the time, probably at least 30 minutes a day. sidebuttons for forward and backward browsing is very very nice, a feature i wouldnt want to miss anymore.
for me personally, a mouse without sidebuttons is a no-go.
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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 00:41 Black Gun wrote:On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis? unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers. the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration. basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip. The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.I've owned 3 PTE mice. 1 Razer, 1 Genius and 1 Coolermaster. They all had this problem on my soft mouse pad. Logitech on the other hand is great, the latest Avago has no acceleration or prediction. Providing you turn them off like you say. I also have a friend who owned an Abyssus where the plastic housing under the left click button came loose and made it extremely frustrating to use. It's not just the sensor, the whole deal is bad with Razer. The only reason people buy them is because of the marketing "for gamers by gamers" crap. It worked on me too, that's why I bought mine. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm tryinig to prevent people from making the same. They are just honestly the cheapest made and worst designed (sup RSI) products you could possibly get.
I have a deathadder, haven't had this problem. I run on 1800 dpi and use a soft pad.
I own two copies of the mouse. In one of them the clicker on the left mouse button got stuck and I had to open the mouse up and stick some oil in the little part. Other than that, never had a problem.
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I love the Abyssus, definitely the best mouse I've had yet. Though, when I downloaded and installed the driver for my laptop, it started blue screening my laptop frequently... especially when I disconnected and reconnected it frequently. Uninstalled it since then and it's been fine. Kinda weird that it works better without the actual driver.
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On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL.
I've had my razer copperhead for like 5 years or something and it's still awesome, lots of wear and tear on it, and ALL buttons click nicely when pressed and even the scroller still "ticks" when you scroll it.
I don't know about Logitech's mouses, but their headphones are shit...I've had probably 5 pairs of this headset and am looking to get a new more than $30 pair for xmas
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On November 30 2010 09:05 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. I've had my razer copperhead for like 5 years or something and it's still awesome, lots of wear and tear on it, and ALL buttons click nicely when pressed and even the scroller still "ticks" when you scroll it. I don't know about Logitech's mouses, but their headphones are shit...I've had probably 5 pairs of this headset and am looking to get a new more than $30 pair for xmas
The Copperhead is LED Optical, it uses an older Avago sensor (but still a solid one), it does not use the Phillips Twin Eye sensor which is why it would be a lot better than the newer "3G/3.5G" Razer mice.
And yeah cheap Logitech headphones are shit but so are all of them. You get what you pay for. All Logitech keyboards are overpriced and shit and I would never buy one. They make great mice though.
On November 29 2010 10:39 G_G wrote:I use a Steelseries QCK Mini mousepad, soft cloth. My Razer Copperhead, Salmosa, and Abyssus don't move a single pixel when I click any buttons (including wheel), even if I pound the buttons rapidly at 3500 DPI on the Abyssus. Also never had problems with anything coming loose. I won't deny that some people will have problems, but after five years of Starcraft I've never had a problem. I also have no issues lifting and moving the mouse. I will agree that Logitech is great, but Razer is not nearly as bad as you're putting it.
Again, all three of those mice do not use the PTE sensor I am warning people about so you are safe  They all use Avago, same as Logitech.
--- More random information for other people ---
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdEpBMGc1ZXo0S3BLQm1YQ09jeVZ6bEE&w=100&h=650
This spreadsheet is great for people hunting for a new mouse. You want to look for a mouse that:
- Doesn't use Phillips Twin Eye
- Doesn't have prediction or at least gives you an option to turn it off.
- At least 1000 DPI which is around the minimum you can get away with at 1920x1080 (in CS at least) for per pixel accuracy at the same sens as 400 DPI @ 640x480.
- Once you've narrowed them down it's time to look at the shape/price/features and decide from there.
http://www.users.on.net/~frankros/DPI-calc.php - Great calculator for CS sensitivity settings.
I use 1200 DPI personally, I find it gives me enough accuracy and sensitivity to be able to move the mouse the entire height and length of the screen at 1920x1080 without picking up my mouse and repositioning it.
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I have a salmosa and its great for the price I payed (18.37 on woot.com) but I would NEVER pay the 40 dollars they want for it. Same for the death adder if you choose it Wait on Woot.com or midnightbox or some other various deal a day site to get it for 20 dollars like my friend did with his death adder,using a cheap optical mouse like a LMO (9.99 on Target.com when in stock). Razer products arn't all that great for their price (or that durable but that could be their headsets which I will never buy again might I add >.>) and for a pad id get a steelseries QcK probably a better investment than the razer mouse pads.
(sorry if this isn't very easy to read im rather tired.)
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speaking of razer, anyone having trouble navigating through some of their pages? been trying to click pre order razer spectre all day but the page takes forever to load, then finally it doesnt even load.
its only that page too the other pages of razer work fine wtf
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I've got a DeathAdder and I use it on full 3500 DPI and 1000 Hz refresh, and I've never had a problem with any of the axes like some of the people ITT had.... Maybe I'm lucky, but maybe the fact that I use a hard mousepad has something to do with it.
I got some random Office Depot mousepad that says "AllSoP" on it, feels great and has tracked very very very well so far.
The only complaint I have with the DeathAdder is that it's a little too large for my liking. I use a pure fingertip grip (only five points of contact with the mouse), and it's a little awkward for that. My next mouse after this one inevitably dies will likely be the Razer mobility gaming one, since I've heard that's nice and compact. If I find it too small, I'll probably go back to the DA, since it's worked great so far.
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I had a lachesis before, and have a lot of problems as the cursor would move when i tried to click a specific area. Fortunately my cat put me out of my misery by eating the cable (not breaded back then), and i bough a Deathadder respawn instead.
That mouse is just great, not to expensive, confortable (yeah if you like palm grip), not too many button but the 2 additional side buttons are handy, and the 3500 dpi is more than enough for me.
But as other ppl pointed out, it's kind of big (though not as much as an ikari or a kone i think), so if you have small hand or don't like palm grip, stuff like the abyssus or orochi could suit you better. The mirror abyssus looks pretty cool.
And i know..Razer is about the look etc...Well, that doesn't hurt to buy some nice looking gear once in a while.
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EPT
