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On February 14 2013 09:23 Cyro wrote:
Being rational about settings? They seem to have such issues even when not under heavy load AFAIK
vsync (dynamic or not) just addresses the issue by lagging all of the frames so that you recieve them on a delay, smoothly
If they're not under heavy load, you can disable SLI if you're personally having issues with stuttering. Given that you're talking about the sort of situation where you'd also be hitting screen tearing, that makes more sense anyways unless you like input lag.
The issue is if you're at heavy load and not stable 60+ generally. It could just be my eyes, but stuttering has never caused me any issues unless I was playing at too high of settings, at which point what I said comes into play. Any rig would have issues, SLI just has more that are unique.
At no point did I say it doesn't stutter, however, my personal take is that a lot of it is a placebo effect if you're playing at sensible settings, although I readily admit differences in eyes can account for some too. Graphs showing giant spikes really don't do it justice, we all know you can take numbers on a chart and make them look like anything you want.
Basically, I don't find stuttering to be a problem in any scenario where a single GPU of similar power would be looking good.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
My point is, in terms of smoothness, 50fps single-GPU is preferable to 80 on dual (at least for me), neither will come close to constant <16.7ms frames anyway. Taking the crossfire setup because it has a 20% or even a 50% framerate lead i would question a lot, even if psu, noise/heat, drivers etc were all fine
The suggestion of disabling SLI is laughable when he's talking about buying two weak cards instead of a good one - playing with only one of the weaker cards will never be better than the single, stronger card that you dont have to disable SLI on to run smoothly
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On February 14 2013 09:41 Cyro wrote:
My point is, in terms of smoothness, 50fps single-GPU is preferable to 80 on dual (at least for me), neither will come close to constant <16.7ms frames anyway. Taking the crossfire setup because it has a 20% or even a 50% framerate lead i would question a lot, even if psu, noise/heat, drivers etc were all fine
The suggestion of disabling SLI is laughable when he's talking about buying two weak cards instead of a good one - playing with only one of the weaker cards will never be better than the single, stronger card that you dont have to disable SLI on to run smoothly
I think we're having different conversations. Go back and re-read what I said without the assumption I was completely disagreeing.
As for disabling one, you're the one who brought up situations where the cards aren't being taxed heavily, and that was specifically a response to that. If they're not being heavily used, disabling one at the same settings IS frequently an option.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
Either they are not being taxed heavily and you get no benefit from crossfire or they are, and the experience sucks
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On February 14 2013 10:08 Cyro wrote:
Either they are not being taxed heavily and you get no benefit from crossfire or they are, and the experience sucks
Which probably explains why I said the only reason to do it is for shits and giggles. You're basically sitting here arguing with a clarification of what you originally said. The only place we seem to actually disagree is on the subjective side of whether it causes us individually any problems. But you're so busy needing to prove yourself right you're missing all that.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
I was asking for clarification because i was unsure what you meant and then making sure my point was clear, nothing more ^^
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I've been looking into external enclosures for large volume and most of the large ones (4+ drives) seem to be $200+. This one seems to have all of the bases covered and I can't figure out if there's some catch I'm missing:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817392051
Thoughts?
On February 14 2013 09:23 Cyro wrote:
Being rational about settings? They seem to have such issues even when not under heavy load AFAIK
vsync (dynamic or not) just addresses the issue by lagging all of the frames so that you recieve them on a delay, smoothly
You over-emphasize micro-stuttering, though. It's not nearly as bad as you make it sound.
Tom's Hardware had an article (Nov. 2012) which basically showed that it's something much less common on high end dual card setups than on lower-to-mid dual card setups, tends to be lessened when operating at high FPS, and that there are software solutions that are around having tremendous impact on reducing or removing micro-stuttering (Adaptive VSync, Dynamic VSync). They also had the interesting find that a third card actually helps to significantly reduce micro-stuttering, despite the minimal gain in FPS (I didn't re-read the whole thing -- some of this be in a different article).
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7990-devil13-7970-x2,3329.html
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On February 14 2013 05:36 upperbound wrote:
It's not bad if you're not playing gpu bottlenecked games -- the graphics card isn't great, but other than that it seems like a rig that I would recommend/build for someone with your preferences.
The question is really the cost -- this is a custom prebuilt, no? It's reasonably balanced as a system, but whether it's good value is another story.
im only going to try to use it for medium settings on it. the cost is around $1100 or so. i dont remember haha
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Aren't 4 drive enclosures usually RAID arrays, which is why they are more expensive?
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
On February 14 2013 11:13 Craton wrote:I've been looking into external enclosures for large volume and most of the large ones (4+ drives) seem to be $200+. This one seems to have all of the bases covered and I can't figure out if there's some catch I'm missing: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817392051Thoughts? Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 09:23 Cyro wrote:
Being rational about settings? They seem to have such issues even when not under heavy load AFAIK
vsync (dynamic or not) just addresses the issue by lagging all of the frames so that you recieve them on a delay, smoothly You over-emphasize micro-stuttering, though. It's not nearly as bad as you make it sound. Tom's Hardware had an article (Nov. 2012) which basically showed that it's something much less common on high end dual card setups than on lower-to-mid dual card setups, tends to be lessened when operating at high FPS, and that there are software solutions that are around having tremendous impact on reducing or removing micro-stuttering (Adaptive VSync, Dynamic VSync). They also had the interesting find that a third card actually helps to significantly reduce micro-stuttering, despite the minimal gain in FPS (I didn't re-read the whole thing -- some of this be in a different article). http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7990-devil13-7970-x2,3329.html
I read every word, and i think while some people may not mind it, it can be a really big deal for a lot of others. I dont like Vsync or disabling SLI as solutions, adaptive or not. After owning an SLI setup and reading up quite a bit, with my personal tastes for performance i dont think there would be any justification for using multi-GPU for gaming at all once the Geforce Titan is released.
For others, i can see the appeal if you buy a system with a decent GPU and overkill powersupply from somebody and want to beef it up some or something, but on a new buy, not really.. the performance margins would have to be pretty massive to overcome the disadvantages unless you dont mind the noise/heat, have a supporting motherboard+psu, dont mind the driver issues, however much microstuttering may or may not affect you etcetc.
I understand this is all personal and i am probably biased though
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On February 14 2013 11:56 azngamer828 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:36 upperbound wrote:
It's not bad if you're not playing gpu bottlenecked games -- the graphics card isn't great, but other than that it seems like a rig that I would recommend/build for someone with your preferences.
The question is really the cost -- this is a custom prebuilt, no? It's reasonably balanced as a system, but whether it's good value is another story. im only going to try to use it for medium settings on it. the cost is around $1100 or so. i dont remember haha
Well, assuming it costs 1100, you can build it for a lot less, and make small upgrades that make a big difference (for example, they give you a locked 3570 and still use an aftermarket cooler; this is pretty pointless when the price difference between the locked and unlocked 3570 and 3570k is $15 right now in case you want/need to overclock (and overclocking makes a considerable difference when playing/streaming sc2). Or, you could just axe $45 off my build cost and go with the 3570 with the stock cooler and get the same performance as with the wasted money on an aftermarket. I'm going to just show you really average newegg prices (basically none of these components are great deals right now) compared to how much it would cost to buy it prebuilt.
HAF 912 -- $60
i5-3570k -- $230
Hyper 212 EVO -- $30 AR
Gigabyte GA-Z77-D3H -- $125
Kingston HyperX 2x2GB -- $30 (It's shameful that they picked RAM rated at 1.65v for a CPU that recommends no higher than 1.5v, when other 2x2 kits cost like $3 more)
GTX 650 -- $100 AR
Corsair Builder CX500 -- $50 AR
Samsung 840 120GB -- $110
Some optical drive -- $15
Are you a student? If you are, you can probably get Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate for $20 through your school ($35 if you want a disc instead of just a download), as well as Microsoft Office. If you're not, then you're looking at
Windows 7 Home Premium -- $100
Microsoft Office Home and Student -- $120
Even taking max values for the software, total is about $950, and every one of the above ships for free whereas the PC probably won't. Additionally, if you have avenues to get the above software discounted, it saves you almost $200 -- so, you'd be paying $750 to build it yourself -- and building yourself is really easy (perhaps with the exception of installing the heatsink, which is pretty annoying). You also may already have licenses for the above. If you live near a Fry's or Micro Center, even better -- you save about $80 post-tax on CPU+mobo.
Also keep in mind that shopping around for some better deals could save you another $50-100, and/or score you better components for the same price. Newegg seems to have the Samsung SSD at $90 every other week now; you can probably find a similar quality mobo for around $100 in the next 2-3 weeks, the HAF 912 was $40 AR until yesterday, and you can almost certainly get a better power supply for $30-$40 AR with the frequency of sales there. Again, it's not awful, but the question is whether or not saving even $150 at the absolute most conservative estimate is worth 2.5 hours of your time doing a first-time build and learning a lot about your system. Better yet, you can put that $75 in savings toward a 7850 2GB or gtx 660, both of which are showing up in good deals for $175-195 AR and will still be capable cards 2-3 years from now, whereas I can't necessarily say the same about the 650.
I don't know much about this site's support; if it's comparable to, say, Dell, then maybe it's worth a little more than I'm giving it credit for. But, because I doubt they take much responsibility for ex-post customer service, it doesn't seem worth it to me.
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On February 14 2013 11:57 alQahira wrote:
Aren't 4 drive enclosures usually RAID arrays, which is why they are more expensive?
Might be. I hadn't considered that.
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On February 14 2013 11:13 Craton wrote:I've been looking into external enclosures for large volume and most of the large ones (4+ drives) seem to be $200+. This one seems to have all of the bases covered and I can't figure out if there's some catch I'm missing: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817392051Thoughts?
Most external enclosures for 2+ disks are in fact NAS devices, which means they have additional features such as spanning and various RAID levels, network port, access control, etc... The device you're looking at is essentially a USB (or eSATA) hub with an enclosure, without much further functionality. It will function in the same way as hooking up separate external harddisks in that you access each disk separately (rather than as one large unified volume) and through USB/eSATA. If that's what you need, it should be fine.
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On February 12 2013 23:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 22:14 TRaFFiC wrote:
Hi everyone. I'm looking to spend 1,000$ on a desktop for streaming HOTS (including tax etc). I want to stream at high resolution with 720 p.
2)As far as processors go, I've read the i5 3570 is good for gaming. Are there any which are comparable? No, the i7 3770 adds hyperthreading which makes it better in some cases but its kinda useless for gaming and you will only notice it streaming when pushing encoding settings - if you are not overclocking id say consider the 3770, it might make things a bit smoother for targetting 1280x720@60fps/1920x1080@30fps output - but if you are overclocking, you can more than make up the gap in encoding performance on the 3570k while simultaneously making the game run with significantly higher minimum and average framerates particularly later in the game (potentially 140%+ of any stock CPU) 3)Which graphics cards will do the job? On low, something like the gtx260 will wreck 1920x1080. I play with it using maxed textures, effects etc and see a CPU limited >300fps early game dropping down throughout the game (always CPU limited) If you are trying to max the game, then something like a gtx460 should do the job fine, but if you want more performance you can go gtx660/660ti, 670, 680 or radeon 7850, 7870, 7950, 7970 or whatever. I dont think GPU is a big deal at all here, as long as you have something decent by todays standards, it will be important for other games though how much you spend here
On February 12 2013 23:02 upperbound wrote:
1. Resolution is hard capped by your monitor's native resolution. How good the games work at that resolution (frame rates, textures, anti-aliasing) is then affected mostly by your video card, with the exception of some games such as SC2 where smoothness is very CPU dependent.
2. i5-3570k is the best bang for your buck for gaming if you're overclocking, and arguably still a great choice if you'll run stock. It outperforms the more expensive 3770k in many games, at least partially because they don't take advantage of hyperthreading. However, if you won't overclock, you can go for the locked 3570 or 3470, which will be cheaper and more or less the same quality for your use. If you're looking at a smaller budget, the i3-3225 is also a very good processor for the money. However, given that your main goal is to stream starcraft at 720p with decent framerates (i assume this is what you meant to say), you're going to be taxing all of the the 3570k's cores and overclocking will help a great deal.
3. Unless you go into a little more detail about other games that you play, it's difficult to recommend a video card. Given that you have a $1000 budget, I would be looking at anywhere from a $185 Radeon HD7850 2GB to a $300 Radeon HD7950 in budget, with the NVidia GTX 660, Radeon HD7870, and NVidia GTX 660ti falling in order between the two. If you're just playing Starcraft, it's wasteful to buy anything more than a 7850 (or even a 7770 if you're completely sure you'll only be playing SC2). If, on the other hand, you'll be playing Crysis 3, Rome 2, or any very GPU intensive games coming out this year, get the best card you can in budget as it will make a sizeable difference.
4. It will depend on when you build. For a single GPU setup, any PSU that exceeds 450-500w is overkill. From there, you'll want a unit that's reliable, efficient, and performs as advertised. If you're building ASAP, I'm sure we can help scour NCIX for a deal.
EDIT: Antec Neo Eco 620w $30AR today on Newegg... GOOD THING I BOUGHT PARTS 2 DAYS AGO
Thanks for the replies guys.
I got a quote from NCIX on a desktop. Appreciate anyone's thoughts.
-Intel Core i5 3570 - 199.99
-MSI Z77A-G43 ATX LGA1155 Z77 DDR3 2PCI-E16 1PCI-E1 3PCI SATA3 DVI HDMI VGA DX11 USB3.0 Motherboard (Z77A-G43) -109.99
-Kingston KHX 16gb kit. 2x8gb 1,600 MHz DDR3 - 95.99
-ASUS DRW 24B1ST 24 SATA DVD writer OEM Black - 19.99
-Biffenix Merc Beta Steal Black ATX Mid tower case - 39.99
-Cooler Master Extreme 2 Power Plus 625w ATX 12v Power Supply 20/24 pin 120mm fan - 59.99
-Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB SATA 6gbs/s 7200RPM 64mb cache 3.5 in. hard drive OEM - 69.99
-Microsoft Windows 7 home edition - 97.99
-ASUS GeForce GTX660 OC DirectCU 1020 MHz 2GB 6.0Ghz DDR5 2XDVI HDMI - 234.99
- PC Assembly - 50.00
TOTAL -984 >> $1,100 canadian with tax
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No use going for a Z77 mobo if you're not going to OC, a B75 or H77 will be cheaper and fine
get the cheapest RAM you can find at 1.5V, 2x4 gb is enough, no need for 16
for the PSU don't get a CM, ANTEC HCG, OCZ ZT/ZS, etc...
rest is fine
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On February 14 2013 15:04 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:56 azngamer828 wrote:On February 14 2013 05:36 upperbound wrote:
It's not bad if you're not playing gpu bottlenecked games -- the graphics card isn't great, but other than that it seems like a rig that I would recommend/build for someone with your preferences.
The question is really the cost -- this is a custom prebuilt, no? It's reasonably balanced as a system, but whether it's good value is another story. im only going to try to use it for medium settings on it. the cost is around $1100 or so. i dont remember haha Well, assuming it costs 1100, you can build it for a lot less, and make small upgrades that make a big difference (for example, they give you a locked 3570 and still use an aftermarket cooler; this is pretty pointless when the price difference between the locked and unlocked 3570 and 3570k is $15 right now in case you want/need to overclock (and overclocking makes a considerable difference when playing/streaming sc2). Or, you could just axe $45 off my build cost and go with the 3570 with the stock cooler and get the same performance as with the wasted money on an aftermarket. I'm going to just show you really average newegg prices (basically none of these components are great deals right now) compared to how much it would cost to buy it prebuilt. HAF 912 -- $60 i5-3570k -- $230 Hyper 212 EVO -- $30 AR Gigabyte GA-Z77-D3H -- $125 Kingston HyperX 2x2GB -- $30 (It's shameful that they picked RAM rated at 1.65v for a CPU that recommends no higher than 1.5v, when other 2x2 kits cost like $3 more) GTX 650 -- $100 AR Corsair Builder CX500 -- $50 AR Samsung 840 120GB -- $110 Some optical drive -- $15 Are you a student? If you are, you can probably get Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate for $20 through your school ($35 if you want a disc instead of just a download), as well as Microsoft Office. If you're not, then you're looking at Windows 7 Home Premium -- $100 Microsoft Office Home and Student -- $120 Even taking max values for the software, total is about $950, and every one of the above ships for free whereas the PC probably won't. Additionally, if you have avenues to get the above software discounted, it saves you almost $200 -- so, you'd be paying $750 to build it yourself -- and building yourself is really easy (perhaps with the exception of installing the heatsink, which is pretty annoying). You also may already have licenses for the above. If you live near a Fry's or Micro Center, even better -- you save about $80 post-tax on CPU+mobo. Also keep in mind that shopping around for some better deals could save you another $50-100, and/or score you better components for the same price. Newegg seems to have the Samsung SSD at $90 every other week now; you can probably find a similar quality mobo for around $100 in the next 2-3 weeks, the HAF 912 was $40 AR until yesterday, and you can almost certainly get a better power supply for $30-$40 AR with the frequency of sales there. Again, it's not awful, but the question is whether or not saving even $150 at the absolute most conservative estimate is worth 2.5 hours of your time doing a first-time build and learning a lot about your system. Better yet, you can put that $75 in savings toward a 7850 2GB or gtx 660, both of which are showing up in good deals for $175-195 AR and will still be capable cards 2-3 years from now, whereas I can't necessarily say the same about the 650. I don't know much about this site's support; if it's comparable to, say, Dell, then maybe it's worth a little more than I'm giving it credit for. But, because I doubt they take much responsibility for ex-post customer service, it doesn't seem worth it to me.
what is your opinion on the mobo that i am thinking of in comparison to the msi or other brands?
where is a gtx 660 for $175-$195? that would be so good to have then :D
if i do do this, then its going to be my first time building one ^^ haha
yeah, i was only just looking at that site to see what i would like, not really going to buy it haha
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On February 15 2013 03:07 azngamer828 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:04 upperbound wrote:On February 14 2013 11:56 azngamer828 wrote:On February 14 2013 05:36 upperbound wrote:
It's not bad if you're not playing gpu bottlenecked games -- the graphics card isn't great, but other than that it seems like a rig that I would recommend/build for someone with your preferences.
The question is really the cost -- this is a custom prebuilt, no? It's reasonably balanced as a system, but whether it's good value is another story. im only going to try to use it for medium settings on it. the cost is around $1100 or so. i dont remember haha Well, assuming it costs 1100, you can build it for a lot less, and make small upgrades that make a big difference (for example, they give you a locked 3570 and still use an aftermarket cooler; this is pretty pointless when the price difference between the locked and unlocked 3570 and 3570k is $15 right now in case you want/need to overclock (and overclocking makes a considerable difference when playing/streaming sc2). Or, you could just axe $45 off my build cost and go with the 3570 with the stock cooler and get the same performance as with the wasted money on an aftermarket. I'm going to just show you really average newegg prices (basically none of these components are great deals right now) compared to how much it would cost to buy it prebuilt. HAF 912 -- $60 i5-3570k -- $230 Hyper 212 EVO -- $30 AR Gigabyte GA-Z77-D3H -- $125 Kingston HyperX 2x2GB -- $30 (It's shameful that they picked RAM rated at 1.65v for a CPU that recommends no higher than 1.5v, when other 2x2 kits cost like $3 more) GTX 650 -- $100 AR Corsair Builder CX500 -- $50 AR Samsung 840 120GB -- $110 Some optical drive -- $15 Are you a student? If you are, you can probably get Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate for $20 through your school ($35 if you want a disc instead of just a download), as well as Microsoft Office. If you're not, then you're looking at Windows 7 Home Premium -- $100 Microsoft Office Home and Student -- $120 Even taking max values for the software, total is about $950, and every one of the above ships for free whereas the PC probably won't. Additionally, if you have avenues to get the above software discounted, it saves you almost $200 -- so, you'd be paying $750 to build it yourself -- and building yourself is really easy (perhaps with the exception of installing the heatsink, which is pretty annoying). You also may already have licenses for the above. If you live near a Fry's or Micro Center, even better -- you save about $80 post-tax on CPU+mobo. Also keep in mind that shopping around for some better deals could save you another $50-100, and/or score you better components for the same price. Newegg seems to have the Samsung SSD at $90 every other week now; you can probably find a similar quality mobo for around $100 in the next 2-3 weeks, the HAF 912 was $40 AR until yesterday, and you can almost certainly get a better power supply for $30-$40 AR with the frequency of sales there. Again, it's not awful, but the question is whether or not saving even $150 at the absolute most conservative estimate is worth 2.5 hours of your time doing a first-time build and learning a lot about your system. Better yet, you can put that $75 in savings toward a 7850 2GB or gtx 660, both of which are showing up in good deals for $175-195 AR and will still be capable cards 2-3 years from now, whereas I can't necessarily say the same about the 650. I don't know much about this site's support; if it's comparable to, say, Dell, then maybe it's worth a little more than I'm giving it credit for. But, because I doubt they take much responsibility for ex-post customer service, it doesn't seem worth it to me. what is your opinion on the mobo that i am thinking of in comparison to the msi or other brands? where is a gtx 660 for $175-$195? that would be so good to have then :D if i do do this, then its going to be my first time building one ^^ haha yeah, i was only just looking at that site to see what i would like, not really going to buy it haha
1. The Gigabyte GA-Z77-D3H is comparable to an Asus P8Z77-V LX, MSI G41-LGA, or an ASRock Pro4 in price and support. They're decent mobos, but lately the next step up, e.g. the Asus P8Z77-V LK or the ASRock Extreme4, have had solid sales and been about the same price after rebate (or occasionally a little lower). For overclocking, they're all solid mobos for the price -- I think you have to have a really good reason to spend more. If you're not going to overclock, just go for a B75 Mobo at the $75-$100 price point instead and save $25-50.
2. The GTX 660 (by some brand other than EVGA, which is still $199 but has a pretty loud blower fan) was just on sale for $199 after shipping somewhere -- my initial post meant to say $175-199; it was an error. The Gigabyte GTX 660 is still $209 AR on Newegg, which is fairly close.
3. Building your rig isn't that difficult. There are a few pitfalls along the way that are easily avoided. This video is pretty good, and the builder doesn't do anything that I would consider risky or shortcutting through the duration of the build; he does everything that you'd probably want to do with your computer. Aftermarket heatsink, SSD and HDD, discrete GPU, in an ATX mid tower case. Reasonable minds can differ on the way that he applies the thermal paste, but everything else is pretty standard. I didn't include part 1 because this forum can help pick parts, although feel free to watch part 3 if you want help installing Windows, going through UEFI BIOS, and other setup type stuff.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
Dont apply thermal paste like that
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EPT
