EPT[D] Terran Gunboat Idea - Page 2
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peetah
Sweden88 Posts
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ImgGartok
United States216 Posts
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
Personally, I don't like it. Since it's basically just a flying bunker, it doesn't really feel fresh or innovative, I'd rather see something new. The step from unloading units to letting them shoot from the inside is too small for me to see it as a truly fun unit with a purpose. | ||
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
And like FA said, what exactly is the role of this unit? or maybe the more important question is, what is the role of the Banshee bomber? or the Reapers? Seems like they might fill simmilar roles. Im afraid there might just be too many other units/simmilar things in the game already [which of course could be gone tomorrow ;p] I also like the idea that the dropship itself would be upgraded, then the medivac [which I dislike] could be an alternative upgrade that would add to the Terran versitility theme like the Battle Cruiser being able to choose from two different upgrades.I'd also like to point out one reason the medics/firebats/ect are being jugled around is because Blizzard thinks there are just too many infantry units, this is a good way to add a lot of functionality to infantry without actually adding another unit. Maybe you could take this 'one upgrade or the other' idea to other units too. Make terran really adaptable. Which makes me think of Dawn of War's space marines for example which could upgrade their normal machine guns to flame throwers or plasma rilfles. And now that is like well whats the point of firebats - I know, just an example[hey theres another way to limit the amount of infantry units, but not the function^^]. Scv's being able to upgrade their 'drills' to a weak melee weapon? Lol ok maybe thats kinda silly just throwing ideas out there..Terran adapting to battles [more] dynamically is an exciting thought. Another problem I see with it, as its essentially a flying bunker I cant help but be reminded of phase cannons and how Blizzard removed them because they thought it was more zerg. So isnt this really like a mobile defense, except even stronger? I realize its further along the tech-tree then the current 'mobile sunkens' (or is it? what tier/when is the uprade - if it is an upgrade - availble?) and that might be divergence enough. Again, I do like the idea, hope my post doesnt seem negative.. Cheers EDIT: FA also suggested being able to load SCV's for the ability to repair, which reminds me that originally Starports were like mobile repair stations wernt they? Although I think simply loading/unloading Scvs/medics to give it these abilites is too strong. I think it should be a one way upgrade - and limit the unit versatility a bit, cause a flying bunker with 1 medic, 1 scv, and 2 marines is a little too powerful ;p. So maybe you can only mix offensive infantry units (1 ghost, 3 marines) and not support units. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Balance can be sorted by them, but this is DEFINITELY worth considering strongly | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
On April 30 2008 10:46 FrozenArbiter wrote: I like Gunboat (which I might have mentioned to him..  ), he orginally called it Gunship.As to why we should reduce the range, well, what range exactly is gonna be hard to determine without testing but I think reducing it from their normal range is almost a must. They would be extraordinarily powerful with the full bunker range, and you can easily come up with fluff reasons for why it should be harder to obtain maximum range from a high altitude/velocity/whatever. Anyway, moving on. A unit such as this might open up to some interesting abilities as well, perhaps the ability to board enemy vessels (well.. maybe not zerg, but at least terran)? I think there's just a lot of options and ways to go with a unit like this. Fill it with marines, it becomes a fighting ship, fill it with medics, it's a medivac. Fill it with SCVs it's a mobile repairship? Right now I'm just free-flow brainstorming, not sure all I'll think of will be very good, but I see so much potential in this unit. As for its role, I'm not sure it will really be fast enough (the dship is quite slow) to harass enemy units, especially with such short range. But I can see it having a lot of use in island map TvZs or even vs mutalisks in more regular settings. all of that sounds really really sweet. i'd like to see some marine micro with pop-out to stim, and pop back in. scourge vs dropship = good... scourge vs gunboat = bad... scourge vs gunboat with SCVs or medics = good basically, sounds like an awesome idea! | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
On April 30 2008 18:00 nofAcedAgent wrote: I think its a decent I idea but would [obviously] need to be balanced heavily [nerfed] , like sushi said to only shoot while stationary, AA or both, ect. Could a reduction in accuracy/increased miss chance be another way to balance it? I also think that once the units are loaded into it maybe you cant unload them. Cause really whats the point of even droping units then [i know since oyu said only infantry, machines would still be used, and reduces 8 to 4, but still], so maybe its a one way upgrade. I also cant help but think of APC's from games like C&C. Versatility of unit combinations aside, isnt this essentially giving marines an increased armor upgrade and the ability to fly? I also would like to remind everyone that terran has [unless they removed it?] drop pods also. being able to shoot while stationary sounds like a horrible idea. That goes in the category of taking away stack mutas, and making vultures only able to shoot while stationary (i believe that is something they have tested with sc2). while you're at it, you might as well require that gunboats may only board 4 marines, no medics or scvs allowed, and marines are not allowed to unboard once boarded. starcraft is about hard counters, not about nerfs. stop being a pansy. bring muta stacking and muta micro back in, and that will be the perfect nerf for gunboats. | ||
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Troklo
Austria41 Posts
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
On April 30 2008 19:03 Polyphasic wrote: being able to shoot while stationary sounds like a horrible idea. That goes in the category of taking away stack mutas, and making vultures only able to shoot while stationary (i believe that is something they have tested with sc2). while you're at it, you might as well require that gunboats may only board 4 marines, no medics or scvs allowed, and marines are not allowed to unboard once boarded. starcraft is about hard counters, not about nerfs. stop being a pansy. bring muta stacking and muta micro back in, and that will be the perfect nerf for gunboats. Lol when did I ever say that you should remove mutas or vultures abillity to hit and attack? Im talking strickly about the 'gunboat' and in the OP he suggest it can only board 4 marines. And how does that go into the "catagory" or stacking mutas, this is a completly new unit, and BTW, you CAN NOT use mutas in SC2 like you can in SC1, its a limitation of the current engine. It wasnt my original idea to limit its ablitiy to shoot and move in the first place, it was Sushimans'. This unit has the potential to be extremely overpower and we are simply thinking of ways to limit that. YEAH, fuck it your right that is pansy, lets let ultras fly and shoot nukes out their eyeballs. Please dont be such an ass >< Slow down and actually read peoples post (INCLUDING THE OP) thorughly before being so rude with your opinions. We are just free-flowing ideas here, its called brain storming. Are you capable of contributing something usefull? EDIT: by the way, you saying SC is about 'hard counters' pretty much shows what you know. SC is about SOFT counters. And how are we nerfing a unit that doesnt even exist? Sorry your post is just filled with complete ignorance and misinformation. Get a clue. | ||
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TheosEx
United States894 Posts
Not being sarcastic at all. | ||
KwarK
United States44243 Posts
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
On April 30 2008 19:31 ForAdun wrote: Exactly. Please guys, stop talking about balance. 150 minerals for a spawning pool was imbalanced, 200 minerals is balanced. What's your problem, omg... The OP of the thread is talking about balance man, its part of the discussion. I dont understand what your problem with talking about balance is. Discussing these things are how you get instresting new unit ideas in the first place.. "hey everyone lets stop thinking!" >< Just consider the Valkyrie for example. It can only attack air, now thats is in part to balance it, but it also a defining atribute of the unit. So if it helps you, then just think of it as unit atributes/abilites. Like I said this is how you come up with new ideas I really dont get why its bothering you that people are discussing this - are we forcing you to read the thread? You can easily just stay out. Try contributing something usefull. because "shut up" or "stupid idea" doesnt help anyone. "please stop talking about balance because it profoundly affects me as a person and i think i might die if you continue to have intelligent disscussion!!!1"  BTW how many years was it before the pool was "balance to 200"? Yeah it was quite a few years.. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
I mean you mind as well just delete the op and replace it with "new idea: flying APC" O well - time to stop investing energy in this thread, cheers guys  | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On April 30 2008 13:37 useLess wrote: what would the micro be like in this? would all units in the ship attack one unit, or will it be similar to the bc's attack where it can fire on multiple enemies? Should it behave like a bunker in that you can't target it? This is another interesting thing to decide. Btw booh! I'm the only one who likes the name gunboat better than gunship :D crap!! I think a gunship is a flying thingy while a gunboat is, well, a boat? Oh well, Gunship sounds cool too! On April 30 2008 14:44 [X]Ken_D wrote: Interesting idea, but it isn't balance. It shouldn't be able to attack BOTH air and ground. It's either one or the other or else it is too good. Bunker is already too good as is. A weakness of a units isn't just cost or else people just mass a lot of the most powerful units and run over their opponent. EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there. For this reason I believe it should be anti-air only, as mentioned. However, while I do think it's possible to come up with good ideas for the game, I think we need to leave the balancing of the ideas largely to blizzard (and later us, in the beta). Doesn't mean we can't discuss the potential balance, it just means I don't think we have the complete picture and can probably not reach any definitive conclusions And like FA said, what exactly is the role of this unit? or maybe the more important question is, what is the role of the Banshee bomber? or the Reapers? Seems like they might fill simmilar roles. Im afraid there might just be too many other units/simmilar things in the game already [which of course could be gone tomorrow ;p] Yeah, this and your comment on 'why ever unload' makes me think AA only is best. This way we give terrans a good AA unit vs light air (if it can't focus fire, like a bunker, it fits the light air counter role even better), something I currently believe they lack (unsure about the vikings, but its missiles seem more suited for taking out bigger things, ie they look like goliath missiles or wraith missiles, both who were sort of bad vs mutas for instance). A problem with no focus fire tho, is that they will be quite ineffective on their own until you reach a certain number.. However that might be fine. EDIT: FA also suggested being able to load SCV's for the ability to repair, which reminds me that originally Starports were like mobile repair stations wernt they? Although I think simply loading/unloading Scvs/medics to give it these abilites is too strong. I think it should be a one way upgrade - and limit the unit versatility a bit, cause a flying bunker with 1 medic, 1 scv, and 2 marines is a little too powerful ;p. So maybe you can only mix offensive infantry units (1 ghost, 3 marines) and not support units. Yeah I wasn't thinking we should let it use all 3 roles at once, maybe make it so you have to have 2 units of the type you want it to be or something | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On April 30 2008 14:44 [X]Ken_D wrote: Interesting idea, but it isn't balance. It shouldn't be able to attack BOTH air and ground. It's either one or the other or else it is too good. Bunker is already too good as is. A weakness of a units isn't just cost or else people just mass a lot of the most powerful units and run over their opponent. EDIT: I take it back. It's a bad idea. It is high HP units that ALSO attacks fast which is BADDD. Ultra/BC/Carriers are good against medium/large units because of their high HP, but don't fight so well against weaker units because of their slow attacks. This Gunboat counters small ground, small air, medium ground, medium air so basically almost everything plus it can fly. Oh and it is range and can be repaired. Imagine, having 12 marine with HP of an ultralisk & can fly. That's basically your gunship right there. The Gunboat cannot counter armored units as well as Ultra/BC/Carriers. First of all, it's only 4 marines, non stimmed, unless you're going to add a medic in there, which in case would have 3 marines, stimmed. Thats 6+6+6 damage, which if used against say any unit with armor would be rather uneffective. It doesn't really counter "small ground" "small air" et. al, either. A Gunboat with 4 marines will lose to a bunker with 4 marines, for instance. Bam. You basically lose 100 Minerals and 125 gas, for instance. Also, against stationary defenses such as spore colonies, missile turrets, and photon cannons, the Gunboat will not be very effective because of the base armor, and they can be "diseased," which should make sense because the Gunboat's tech tier is almost as late as the defiler. It's not like the Dropship, which only requires the Starport and a Research Lab thingy. It may require other tech, or maybe a research upgrade at the lab or something, that wil make it relatively late game. I mean, if you look at SC1, one of the things that Terran really lacked was a tough, damage dealing, late-game unit. Sure, you had the BC, but when was the last time you saw those used? Whereas the Zerg have Ultralisks and the Protoss has Archons/Carriers/W/E, the Terrans didn't really have anything-they focused mainly on mid-game units. The Gunboat might change how things work. Not to mention it's like morphing a guardian, except that it's vulnerable to ground attack for a period. Someone mentioned earlier a loaded dropship might work if changed to a dropship. The landing feature will cause all troops on board to leave and land next to the dropship as it's being worked on, removing any mechanical issues. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On April 30 2008 19:21 Kwark wrote: Make it as slow as a reaver. You could turn round and make an argument for reavers being imba in bw because on paper they are. But as deadly as they are in combat they are still very limited by other factors, such as reliance on shuttles, reloads and ease of sniping. Give this a slow move speed and standard marine range and you'll see nice micro used to snipe it. Stalkers blink in, destroy it, blink out. Muta micro picking it off as it lags behind the main army. Basically, however strong a flying bunker may appear on paper, it can easily be balanced by other factors in playtesting. I really liked this idea. The problem with making it slow is that it's role as an "irradiater" is essentially useless, as it won't be able to do anything. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
If it's AA only, it will be easier to balance, it will fill a niche that is currently empty ever since they removed the last AA only terran unit, and we would avoid it becoming too good. Seeing as how terrans have the thor now, and the siege tank was never a slouch, I don't think the terrans are in desperate need of a very strong lategame unit either. I agree we can't make it reaver slow tho, about the speed it had as a dropship (maybe sliiiiightly less?) seems fine. Btw anyone have any thoughts on what I mentioned about possibly allowing it to board other flying units (well, other flying terran units at least, or perhaps only capital ships)? I'm not sure it would fit well but maybe. | ||
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