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@Avex:
You seem to be talking about professional players and tournament vetoes when I'm talking about casual players and ladder vetoes, so I don't think we're talking about the same types of considerations. Professional players may care about the type of analysis you've made of Celestial Enclave (and I actually agree with your analysis when looking at the map from that point of view), but every conversation I've had with casual (macro) players who've vetoed Celestial Enclave doesn't go that deep. They've played the map, they've gotten proxied in the backdoor base because of the worker-only path, and then they've vetoed the map. This isn't them turning their brains off. This is them being smart enough to realise that they're not getting anything out of the backdoor base themselves (macro play in LotV is too streamlined for the backdoor base to be a worthwhile consideration) and so they don't bother with it, and I don't blame them.
EDIT:
In the same way, casual (macro) players who've vetoed >2P maps don't do so because of some deep analysis of the map layout. They've played the map, they've gotten cheesed once in a way that was impossible to scout due to RNG (or they've played a Random player and been unable to select a build fast enough due to RNG), and then they've vetoed the map. Once again, this isn't them turning their brains off. This is them being smart enough to realise that they're not getting anything out of >2P maps themselves and so they don't bother with them, and I again don't blame them.
Then again, maybe I'm being too relentlessly pessimistic due to my feelings on how LotV has been streamlined. I have a very hard time seeing how maps can make the game more strategically interesting when I don't think the game itself is capable of being anywhere near as strategically interesting as WoL/HotS due to the 12 worker start.
EDIT2:
It really comes down to risk/reward.
WoL/HotS gave the player more options in the early game because there was a greater selection of viable builds. This meant that >2P maps and non-standard maps gave players a chance for experimentation, and so casual (macro) players felt like they had something to gain from playing on >2P maps and non-standard maps.
LotV doesn't give the player options in the early game. To take an example, if you're playing a macro PvZ then you're opening 1 Gate FE whether you like it or not, so why would you want to worry about failing to scout a 12 Pool in time due to RNG when that RNG isn't giving you any extra options? It doesn't make sense to bother, and so people don't.
It's really not about players turning their brains off. It's about LotV being so aggressively streamlined that it doesn't give interesting maps room to breathe.
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I want 9 new maps. The current maps are fine but I won't miss them and think it's better to create more space for new maps.
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On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime.
My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder.
I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets.
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On April 01 2026 02:59 OmniSkepticSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime. My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder. I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets.
Aye, to the degree I wish people giving feedback on maps or balance etc would declare which perspective they’re coming from, or indeed both.
Golden Wall is one of my favourites as a spectator. Don’t play atm and haven’t in ages but I’m pretty certain I’d find it very frustrating to actually play.
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On April 01 2026 02:59 OmniSkepticSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime. My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder. I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets.
This happens with practically every map, Abyssal Reef included. Abyssal Reef produced some of the longest, stalest turtlefest games for a long period of time and yet everyone remembers it as the pretty underwater map despite the uncountable flaws it had. It returning (as well as Kings Cove) was a great reminder of how sour it really was, players got better, the maps stayed the same. People really liked Ascension to Aiur or Mech Depot when they were was out because they were the most "reasonable" of the maps in their pool, but I guarantee people would not be as big of a fan of them now.
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United States1954 Posts
On April 01 2026 05:48 Avexyli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2026 02:59 OmniSkepticSC wrote:On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime. My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder. I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets. This happens with practically every map, Abyssal Reef included. Abyssal Reef produced some of the longest, stalest turtlefest games for a long period of time and yet everyone remembers it as the pretty underwater map despite the uncountable flaws it had. It returning (as well as Kings Cove) was a great reminder of how sour it really was, players got better, the maps stayed the same. People really liked Ascension to Aiur or Mech Depot when they were was out because they were the most "reasonable" of the maps in their pool, but I guarantee people would not be as big of a fan of them now.
Abyssal Reef was a turtle fest. If someone fails to recall that fact, that's on them. Mech Depot was bad from day one and Ascension was actually a good map. The only issue is it/reef created a trend of massive maps such as eastwatch, backwater and neon violet square that were undeniably terrible.
The easiest way to make a good map is copy Coda and call it a day.
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On the topic of older LotV maps, the only reason to bring them back would be if they had unique features or features that are no longer used. Every TLMC produces more than enough standard maps that are near-guaranteed to work because they follow a framework that's been established to work more or less in any meta. So as much as I'd love to see it again, there's no point in bringing back Eternal Empire (which is pretty much a perfect LotV edition of Cloud Kingdom) for example. There would be more of a point to bringing back 2016 fan favorite Dusk Towers, since at least that has a full pocket natural, which is a feature maps no longer get to have if they want to see ladder.
On the topic of bringing back pre-LotV maps, I would expect that most of them will just be terrible now. Granted, we brought some back in 2016/2017 and quite a few worked at least decently (Whirlwind, Daybreak, Newkirk come to mind). But we're not in those metas anymore either, the game and players have evolved quite a bit since then. Those maps weren't designed with LotV in mind to begin with.
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On April 03 2026 20:24 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2026 05:48 Avexyli wrote:On April 01 2026 02:59 OmniSkepticSC wrote:On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime. My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder. I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets. This happens with practically every map, Abyssal Reef included. Abyssal Reef produced some of the longest, stalest turtlefest games for a long period of time and yet everyone remembers it as the pretty underwater map despite the uncountable flaws it had. It returning (as well as Kings Cove) was a great reminder of how sour it really was, players got better, the maps stayed the same. People really liked Ascension to Aiur or Mech Depot when they were was out because they were the most "reasonable" of the maps in their pool, but I guarantee people would not be as big of a fan of them now. Abyssal Reef was a turtle fest. If someone fails to recall that fact, that's on them. Mech Depot was bad from day one and Ascension was actually a good map. The only issue is it/reef created a trend of massive maps such as eastwatch, backwater and neon violet square that were undeniably terrible. The easiest way to make a good map is copy Coda and call it a day.
the problem with abyssal reef imo was that it had wayyy too many elongated cliffs everywhere. the map could have benefited greatly from different terrain.
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United States1954 Posts
On April 03 2026 21:57 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2026 20:24 Mizenhauer wrote:On April 01 2026 05:48 Avexyli wrote:On April 01 2026 02:59 OmniSkepticSC wrote:On March 31 2026 18:30 ejozl wrote:
I still think Golden Wall is one of the best maps ever, and I think it had only 1 season in the pool, which is a crime. My favourite part of the Golden Wall saga is how people glaze it now because they remember the weird games it produced when they were spectating games on it (which is a very fair thing as SC2 is a spectator sport) but they conveniently forget they hated it when it was on the ladder. I think what makes good tournament maps and what makes good ladder maps are almost entirely non-overlapping sets. This happens with practically every map, Abyssal Reef included. Abyssal Reef produced some of the longest, stalest turtlefest games for a long period of time and yet everyone remembers it as the pretty underwater map despite the uncountable flaws it had. It returning (as well as Kings Cove) was a great reminder of how sour it really was, players got better, the maps stayed the same. People really liked Ascension to Aiur or Mech Depot when they were was out because they were the most "reasonable" of the maps in their pool, but I guarantee people would not be as big of a fan of them now. Abyssal Reef was a turtle fest. If someone fails to recall that fact, that's on them. Mech Depot was bad from day one and Ascension was actually a good map. The only issue is it/reef created a trend of massive maps such as eastwatch, backwater and neon violet square that were undeniably terrible. The easiest way to make a good map is copy Coda and call it a day. the problem with abyssal reef imo was that it had wayyy too many elongated cliffs everywhere. the map could have benefited greatly from different terrain.
To be fair, reef wasn't terrible by any means. It's just that, over time, players realized the first five bases were "free"ish, which led to more super long games.
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The maps that I advocate that are fun to watch, are the ones that I enjoy playing on as well. Not necessarily the more cheesy ones, but the ones that throw a spanner in the works, and force the player to adapt.
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On April 03 2026 20:24 Mizenhauer wrote:
Abyssal Reef was a turtle fest. If someone fails to recall that fact, that's on them. Mech Depot was bad from day one and Ascension was actually a good map. The only issue is it/reef created a trend of massive maps such as eastwatch, backwater and neon violet square that were undeniably terrible.
The easiest way to make a good map is copy Coda and call it a day.
To be fair, it's what everyone said they liked and what it felt like they wanted, (minus the turtly aspect) people seemed to like longer games, games felt "naturally" scrappier because of the bases mining out and it was the natural extension of us being forced to put more bases on the map, just make the map bigger. Obviously our perspective has changed and refined since, but at the time it felt correct.
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EPT
