EPTWe as the community hold the power
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CicadaSC
United States1865 Posts
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Woosixion
120 Posts
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Conreik
France51 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12391 Posts
The best thing to do right now is probably just to let the game die and hope that Stormgate is good. If we're not doing that and we're sticking to Starcraft, the best thing to do is to keep the council but make it a lot more transparent, so that we get a better sense of the problems in terms of dynamics that have transpired in the last few days. There should also be a new map pool in connexion to the patch? I'm assuming, and that map pool will probably be less terran favored. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12391 Posts
On October 24 2024 20:19 Nakajin wrote: The WombaT's patch is starting a revolution now, what was this guy thinking? Always had my doubts about him  | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4235 Posts
On October 24 2024 10:53 Woosixion wrote: I think the best form of protest is if we the community collectively uninstall the game and start playing brood war. Welcome home, y'all. | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines895 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On October 24 2024 20:19 Nakajin wrote: The WombaT's patch is starting a revolution now, what was this guy thinking? Of all the revolutions I wished to inspire! … Expect a stock apology/non-apology video imminently haha | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada126 Posts
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
On October 24 2024 22:45 WombaT wrote: Of all the revolutions I wished to inspire! … Expect a stock apology/non-apology video imminently haha You should've announced the posting of this comment on Twitter. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
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bela.mervado
Hungary406 Posts
On October 24 2024 22:56 Balnazza wrote: Is it just me or are we starting to completly overreact over this? yeah i got the same feeling tl.net looks like reddit in the past few days | ||
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Philippe
354 Posts
On October 25 2024 02:05 bela.mervado wrote: yeah i got the same feeling tl.net looks like reddit in the past few days All things considered the patch is not as bad as it's being made to be. It's the lack of transparency about the process that puzzles me more. Sure David Kim got a lot of flak as the public face of balance back then (it's a thankless job sometimes imo), but somebody (even if anonymous) has to reveal the thought process behind this patch. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On October 25 2024 02:05 bela.mervado wrote: yeah i got the same feeling tl.net looks like reddit in the past few days Nah, we're back to old tl, welcome to TZCraft 2 vibes. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1399 Posts
On October 25 2024 03:26 Nakajin wrote: Nah, we're back to old tl, welcome to TZCraft 2 vibes. ZTarcraft 2: Legacy of the Void Inside the Skulls of the Balance Council. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On October 24 2024 22:18 SamirDuran wrote: Maybe the players should try to play the PTR first before making a conclusion that this is a bad patch? This take is so bad. If I take all the gas out of your car, do you actually need to try and start it to know you won't get anywhere? We all have the power of prediction within us. We can predict, with good certainty, that if you nerf X and buff Y, Y will be stronger and X will be weaker. Zerg got a bunch of buffs and 175 mineral Queens, Protoss got important nerfs to Immortals and Shield Batteries and buffs to nothing. Go out and try and start that car now, see if it runs. | ||
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smithwilliams
1 Post
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outscar
2832 Posts
My applauses! David Kim and co. already killed the game decade ago and forced BW pros to switch back and now with this patch even pros who never played BW might go try it. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On October 24 2024 22:18 SamirDuran wrote: Maybe the players should try to play the PTR first before making a conclusion that this is a bad patch? Patch 5.0.1.1 was when things went downhill. Protoss Battery Overcharge got nerfed from 100% to 50% healing, and didn't get enough to compensate; Terran then got Raven buffs so it came out earlier and you could go for a 1-2 Raven push with Interference matrix even earlier than before. What do you think the outcome of these changes together meant? Of course, that the Raven pushes already strong vs Protoss would now become way stronger. And so PvT winrate fell to 40% for months, and when the next patch tried to address this a little, winrate was still around 40-45%. This was the worst year of balance for any MU across all of SC2 history - David Kim's team always kept balance pretty close to 50%, 45:55 situation at worst. Sometimes you do not need to try a patch when you can clearly understand that the balance is not good. This patch gives Terran several nice buffs and Protoss gets a Battery Overcharge replacement which is maybe in a very hopeful view might be about as good as Battery Overcharge, but would still mean Protoss earlygame would be a bit more vulnerable vs Terran pushes than before, and this early game windows has always been a critical time for Protoss where they often barely hold or die outright. Many people said the same back then - to try the patch out and see how it goes. Well we did and the changes went through, and were kept for very close to 1 full year (with minimal reverts; making Interference Matrix a quick upgrade is nice, but it was all because Ravens became cheaper and quicker to build in the first place - Matrix duration never got nerfed to compensate!) I've lost trust in the council; our voices are not being heard enough, the anti Protoss bias is way too strong and it's really starting to hurt and kill any remaining enthusiasm people have about this game. Starcraft has always been an RTS of high integrity because of the balance and asymetric design of the 3 races, and the balance council is threatening to destroy that. We need to act NOW now wait til later. Remember that also Protoss had to deal with multiple years of PvZ being very difficult in LotV. They finally got the MU relatively balanced there (after the voidray slight revert and end of opening voids vs queen walks meta), and then Protoss has to deal with this PvT imbalance roughly on the same level as PvZ's toughest years (around 2019-2020 ish iirc). This is why we should stop being so afraid to buff Protoss up a bit; they've really suffered the most from balance throughout LotV. Even if Protoss ends up being slightly favored in the MUs, we can always pull things back! | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
As for SC2's balance I don't watch it enough anymore to have an opinion about who/what is strong or isn't strong. Though clearly at the top looking at tournament results and late tournament participation protoss seem very far behind. Now obviously at times that could be player dependent, are these other individuals just simply that much better than those who chose to play protoss, are they refusing to adapt? But considering there is a large base of players it seems reasonable to assume they're behind. But Blizzard doesn't care if the pro scene is able to find the best players at events, they want the randoms playing the game to have fun and stay involved. They'd rather create the perfect bronze experience than to perfect the game for pro play. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17267 Posts
On October 30 2024 14:36 NoobSkills wrote: You the people hold absolutely no power over what Acti-Blizz-Trash does with their game. taking a look at what Rob Pardo, Mike Morhaime, Frost Giant, David Kim, and Bungie have done since leaving ATVI I'd say ATVI did a nice job in its role as publisher. ATVI got max production out of some very smart, talented, yet enigmatic software makers. From Pitfall2 to Diablo3 to CoD and WoW ... Activision was awesome. Currrently, MS does a nice job with their RTS games. The community often engages in emotional polemics regarding SC2, its developers, and its publishers. If after 14 years SC2 is that bad I suggest employing Grubby's First Rule Of Gaming: "if you get bored do something else". | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On October 30 2024 21:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: taking a look at what Rob Pardo, Mike Morhaime, Frost Giant, David Kim, and Bungie have done since leaving ATVI I'd say ATVI did a nice job in its role as publisher. ATVI got max production out of some very smart, talented, yet enigmatic software makers. From Pitfall2 to Diablo3 to CoD and WoW ... Activision was awesome. Currrently, MS does a nice job with their RTS games. The community often engages in emotional polemics regarding SC2, its developers, and its publishers. If after 14 years SC2 is that bad I suggest employing Grubby's First Rule Of Gaming: "if you get bored do something else". Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
On October 31 2024 12:18 NoobSkills wrote: Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. D3 is definetly not considered a bust. It was at some point the most-sold PC game of all time. Sure, people got frustrated with it until the real-money auctions got removed. It clearly was something Blizzard tried and that failed (thankfully). Since Reaper of Souls it was really great. How is SC2 "fumbling"? Such an odd word to use. For a long time SC2 was in the Top 5 of most popular Esports games globally. It just dried out over time, not holding up as well as LoL and CSGO. D4 dropped off, yes, How are they "fumbling their proscene" in CoD? Considering that the CDL is still running vs. the OWL I would say they do good enough. The WoW Remake was tremendously popular and is still very popular in the Classic/Vanilla fanbase. Not sure what you are on about with the whole "functionality"-thing. Whining about BattleNet 2.0 is so 2010. People just tend to forget that while Blizzard created its classics before Activision, it was financially the strongest under Activision. As for AoE: AoE 4 was a good game, but it had a very awkward place between the Blizzard RTS and classical AoE 2. But I respect Microsoft a lot for not just nipping it. Instead they still run support for all AoEs except the first one, bringing in new DLCs and patches. And that they don't support the first one more might just be because it isn't popular anywhere but in Vietnamn, but there they play the original game still. AoE 2 is clearly the strongest game of the bunch, but they even have the balls to let it take a step back so they can bring in new projects like AoM Retold. Mid-November there is a "Warcraft Direct" planned, with a timeslot reserved that seems like it will be about WC3. That might be the first wink we get how Microsoft plans to approach the new RTS under their belt. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3481 Posts
I don't agree that community creates pro play. Casual enjoyers of a game, get really good at it, so good that other ppl get enjoyment from watching it, then the casters come in to make it a good show. The community is sprung from playing and watching the game. We should be very happy though that ppl still care enough to make their concerns heard, because for most ppl as soon as they smell shite, they just leave to play/watch other stuff, without any comments. And believe me, I'm smelling a lot of shite ans have been since their 2nd patch. Even the first one I was critical of, but the consensus there was a very positive one. These pros, like casters follow the top players and learn from them, and so they become symbols inside a power structure, so if Reynor, or serral, or whomever says something, it becomes law. So recently we've heard a lot of pro gamer vs. redditor mentality which is onviously hurtful for the game. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17267 Posts
Widely considered a bust by whom? Diablo3 sold 30+ million copies and only 3.5 million copies in its first month. It sold 12 million by the end of 2012. Diablo3 sold the majority of its copies long after the game was released. Long term engagement is objective proof of quality. I'm very lazy so I'm not going to bother with the rest of your info because your D3 comment was so far off base. D3 was an unbelievable smash success. A Baseball game I made in 2002 got way less complaints than Diablo3 got. Diablo3 got way more complaints because it sold 30+ million more copies than my baseball game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
I think it’s perfectly fine to prefer, or hell not like a game but SC2 and Diablo 3 were pretty giant successes all told. Plus I think it’s oft-forgotten quite how huge Overwatch was for a bit as well SC2 may not be everyone’s cup of tea and never be BW, but it’s dwarfed everything else in the space since it came out | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On October 31 2024 12:18 NoobSkills wrote: Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On October 31 2024 21:22 Nakajin wrote: I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. I can’t say I’m a fan of Bnet 2.0 even now, that was a downgrade in many ways. Equally, that’s not really an SC2 problem as a general Blizz games from then on issue In an associated sense, I felt they somewhat botched custom games, especially initially. Not having the capacity for private/3rd party servers is an issue too. Not one that I think has been hugely impactful in SC2’s lifetime thus far, but I think increasingly does become an issue if SC2 enters end-of life levels of support. The will would almost certainly be there, indeed I’d argue more so, but the capacity to do something like W3Champions and have a ladder/UX/UI experience that’s actively better than Blizz’s offering just isn’t there. In other ways SC2 is a downgrade from WC3, or was initially, not BW. This ties back into Bnet issues a bit perhaps, but it would have been great to have clans and automated tournaments from the off. Aside from that, I mean I really can’t think of anything. And the things you mentioned are active improvements. Hey I love BW, talking purely mechanically and not factoring in the narrative and atmosphere. I’ve replayed all 3 in the semi-recent past and for mission variety and replay value, for me the campaigns go SC2 >> WC3 > SC1 | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
It really isn't a huge feature to miss. It generally is honestly stupid to say that SC2 has "less functionality" than BW (or WC3). Like what? The Observermode alone kicks the former two in the butt. And to my knowledge SC2 was the first game in which you could not only re-host a saved game, but could actually just jump right into a replay, even if it isn't yours. I know that feature wasn't in the game at the start, but it is still a milestone. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On November 01 2024 00:34 Balnazza wrote: Back when SC2 was released, there was always this joke about the "Battlenet 0.2", which didn't allow for Clans for example. Which is something I personally always thought was ridiculous. For the WC3CL, an existing clan in BNet was mandatory for the longest time and most top teams in our league really struggled to keep up their Clan, because no one was actually playing on BNet. So we eventually just dropped the rule. It really isn't a huge feature to miss. It generally is honestly stupid to say that SC2 has "less functionality" than BW (or WC3). Like what? The Observermode alone kicks the former two in the butt. And to my knowledge SC2 was the first game in which you could not only re-host a saved game, but could actually just jump right into a replay, even if it isn't yours. I know that feature wasn't in the game at the start, but it is still a milestone. Clans were great, comboed with Bnet actually functioning as a social hub. I’d love to see em come back in a more meaningful form, for example your clan could compete with other clans on your average MMR on a clan ladder, that’d be fun. Clan wars were fun and it was smoother to do it with having an integrated clan function. Especially in a 1v1 focused game, it’s a way to indulge some of a social function within those confines But yeah SC2 did add some upgrades too, resume from replay is great | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On October 31 2024 21:22 Nakajin wrote: I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
On November 01 2024 10:21 NoobSkills wrote: They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. So basically you have no idea what you are talking about, but wanted to point out that "hurrdurr BW"? How did you manage to be wrong on basically every point, that's almost an achievement in its own right... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On November 01 2024 10:21 NoobSkills wrote: They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. SC2 sold well over double what WC3 did, it’s retained numbers decently enough given it’s like 15 years old Co-op was only added half a decade plus ago and the Frost Giant people said from their internal numbers working at Blizz that it was the most popular game mode by a distance It’s had a more powerful, albeit harder to use editor for forever | ||
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Volka
Argentina411 Posts
On October 24 2024 10:53 Woosixion wrote: I think the best form of protest is if we the community collectively uninstall the game and start playing brood war. This is so funny. Made my day. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1865 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1865 Posts
(to be clear making Protoss the best definitively is not the goal, but if that accidentally happens as a result of them getting real change so be it. Zerg was clearly OP during Serral and Rogues dominance. If zerg wasn't op would it have received repeated nerfs? Take any player bias aside, because I also think Serral is the goat, but why would you nerf a race if you didn't think it was too strong? So, if Zerg won off banes that were too strong, nydus that were too strong, creep that was too strong, mass queens that are too strong, if protoss wins because we make some of their units OP then so be it. Protoss can win on individual merit, which means the community acknowledges their achievement and the race doesn't get nerfed after they win, OR they win off broken shit and it's like 60% of tournament wins ever. JUST.MAKE.PROTOSS.VIABLE. whatever it takes. Stop the BS.) | ||
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