EPTAs for SC2's balance I don't watch it enough anymore to have an opinion about who/what is strong or isn't strong. Though clearly at the top looking at tournament results and late tournament participation protoss seem very far behind. Now obviously at times that could be player dependent, are these other individuals just simply that much better than those who chose to play protoss, are they refusing to adapt? But considering there is a large base of players it seems reasonable to assume they're behind. But Blizzard doesn't care if the pro scene is able to find the best players at events, they want the randoms playing the game to have fun and stay involved. They'd rather create the perfect bronze experience than to perfect the game for pro play.
We as the community hold the power - Page 2
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
As for SC2's balance I don't watch it enough anymore to have an opinion about who/what is strong or isn't strong. Though clearly at the top looking at tournament results and late tournament participation protoss seem very far behind. Now obviously at times that could be player dependent, are these other individuals just simply that much better than those who chose to play protoss, are they refusing to adapt? But considering there is a large base of players it seems reasonable to assume they're behind. But Blizzard doesn't care if the pro scene is able to find the best players at events, they want the randoms playing the game to have fun and stay involved. They'd rather create the perfect bronze experience than to perfect the game for pro play. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On October 30 2024 14:36 NoobSkills wrote: You the people hold absolutely no power over what Acti-Blizz-Trash does with their game. taking a look at what Rob Pardo, Mike Morhaime, Frost Giant, David Kim, and Bungie have done since leaving ATVI I'd say ATVI did a nice job in its role as publisher. ATVI got max production out of some very smart, talented, yet enigmatic software makers. From Pitfall2 to Diablo3 to CoD and WoW ... Activision was awesome. Currrently, MS does a nice job with their RTS games. The community often engages in emotional polemics regarding SC2, its developers, and its publishers. If after 14 years SC2 is that bad I suggest employing Grubby's First Rule Of Gaming: "if you get bored do something else". | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 30 2024 21:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: taking a look at what Rob Pardo, Mike Morhaime, Frost Giant, David Kim, and Bungie have done since leaving ATVI I'd say ATVI did a nice job in its role as publisher. ATVI got max production out of some very smart, talented, yet enigmatic software makers. From Pitfall2 to Diablo3 to CoD and WoW ... Activision was awesome. Currrently, MS does a nice job with their RTS games. The community often engages in emotional polemics regarding SC2, its developers, and its publishers. If after 14 years SC2 is that bad I suggest employing Grubby's First Rule Of Gaming: "if you get bored do something else". Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1142 Posts
On October 31 2024 12:18 NoobSkills wrote: Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. D3 is definetly not considered a bust. It was at some point the most-sold PC game of all time. Sure, people got frustrated with it until the real-money auctions got removed. It clearly was something Blizzard tried and that failed (thankfully). Since Reaper of Souls it was really great. How is SC2 "fumbling"? Such an odd word to use. For a long time SC2 was in the Top 5 of most popular Esports games globally. It just dried out over time, not holding up as well as LoL and CSGO. D4 dropped off, yes, How are they "fumbling their proscene" in CoD? Considering that the CDL is still running vs. the OWL I would say they do good enough. The WoW Remake was tremendously popular and is still very popular in the Classic/Vanilla fanbase. Not sure what you are on about with the whole "functionality"-thing. Whining about BattleNet 2.0 is so 2010. People just tend to forget that while Blizzard created its classics before Activision, it was financially the strongest under Activision. As for AoE: AoE 4 was a good game, but it had a very awkward place between the Blizzard RTS and classical AoE 2. But I respect Microsoft a lot for not just nipping it. Instead they still run support for all AoEs except the first one, bringing in new DLCs and patches. And that they don't support the first one more might just be because it isn't popular anywhere but in Vietnamn, but there they play the original game still. AoE 2 is clearly the strongest game of the bunch, but they even have the balls to let it take a step back so they can bring in new projects like AoM Retold. Mid-November there is a "Warcraft Direct" planned, with a timeslot reserved that seems like it will be about WC3. That might be the first wink we get how Microsoft plans to approach the new RTS under their belt. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3367 Posts
I don't agree that community creates pro play. Casual enjoyers of a game, get really good at it, so good that other ppl get enjoyment from watching it, then the casters come in to make it a good show. The community is sprung from playing and watching the game. We should be very happy though that ppl still care enough to make their concerns heard, because for most ppl as soon as they smell shite, they just leave to play/watch other stuff, without any comments. And believe me, I'm smelling a lot of shite ans have been since their 2nd patch. Even the first one I was critical of, but the consensus there was a very positive one. These pros, like casters follow the top players and learn from them, and so they become symbols inside a power structure, so if Reynor, or serral, or whomever says something, it becomes law. So recently we've heard a lot of pro gamer vs. redditor mentality which is onviously hurtful for the game. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
Widely considered a bust by whom? Diablo3 sold 30+ million copies and only 3.5 million copies in its first month. It sold 12 million by the end of 2012. Diablo3 sold the majority of its copies long after the game was released. Long term engagement is objective proof of quality. I'm very lazy so I'm not going to bother with the rest of your info because your D3 comment was so far off base. D3 was an unbelievable smash success. A Baseball game I made in 2002 got way less complaints than Diablo3 got. Diablo3 got way more complaints because it sold 30+ million more copies than my baseball game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
I think it’s perfectly fine to prefer, or hell not like a game but SC2 and Diablo 3 were pretty giant successes all told. Plus I think it’s oft-forgotten quite how huge Overwatch was for a bit as well SC2 may not be everyone’s cup of tea and never be BW, but it’s dwarfed everything else in the space since it came out | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On October 31 2024 12:18 NoobSkills wrote: Diablo 3 is widely considered a bust. SC2 is fumbling and still contains less functionality than it's predecessor. D4 dropped off after the hype massively. COD is COD, but I would agree they appeal to the warzone crowd very well, though they're fumbling their pro scene as well. The WoW remake is a massive fumble. SCR was a good remake, but it is a remake, and IIRC contains less functionality than the original as well. They've absolutely fumbled the bag the held in gaming. Activision was dogwater. Now, you're certainly right Microsoft is THE company and IMO very good in gaming, which is why they were willing to pick up such a big entity because that many IP's under your roof is just common sense at this point for them. And yes, microsoft has done very well with AOE, though they let themselves get trapped by modern RTS concepts which is the reason so few are dedicated to their newer titles and most exist on AOE2. It isn't after 14 years, SC2's only perk were hype around the new releases the game is simply inferior in so many ways. And yes, I've "done something else" it is all good, that still doesn't change anything about Activision or Blizzard. Hopefully Microsoft will weed out all the trash and they'll regain their former standing. I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On October 31 2024 21:22 Nakajin wrote: I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. I can’t say I’m a fan of Bnet 2.0 even now, that was a downgrade in many ways. Equally, that’s not really an SC2 problem as a general Blizz games from then on issue In an associated sense, I felt they somewhat botched custom games, especially initially. Not having the capacity for private/3rd party servers is an issue too. Not one that I think has been hugely impactful in SC2’s lifetime thus far, but I think increasingly does become an issue if SC2 enters end-of life levels of support. The will would almost certainly be there, indeed I’d argue more so, but the capacity to do something like W3Champions and have a ladder/UX/UI experience that’s actively better than Blizz’s offering just isn’t there. In other ways SC2 is a downgrade from WC3, or was initially, not BW. This ties back into Bnet issues a bit perhaps, but it would have been great to have clans and automated tournaments from the off. Aside from that, I mean I really can’t think of anything. And the things you mentioned are active improvements. Hey I love BW, talking purely mechanically and not factoring in the narrative and atmosphere. I’ve replayed all 3 in the semi-recent past and for mission variety and replay value, for me the campaigns go SC2 >> WC3 > SC1 | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1142 Posts
It really isn't a huge feature to miss. It generally is honestly stupid to say that SC2 has "less functionality" than BW (or WC3). Like what? The Observermode alone kicks the former two in the butt. And to my knowledge SC2 was the first game in which you could not only re-host a saved game, but could actually just jump right into a replay, even if it isn't yours. I know that feature wasn't in the game at the start, but it is still a milestone. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On November 01 2024 00:34 Balnazza wrote: Back when SC2 was released, there was always this joke about the "Battlenet 0.2", which didn't allow for Clans for example. Which is something I personally always thought was ridiculous. For the WC3CL, an existing clan in BNet was mandatory for the longest time and most top teams in our league really struggled to keep up their Clan, because no one was actually playing on BNet. So we eventually just dropped the rule. It really isn't a huge feature to miss. It generally is honestly stupid to say that SC2 has "less functionality" than BW (or WC3). Like what? The Observermode alone kicks the former two in the butt. And to my knowledge SC2 was the first game in which you could not only re-host a saved game, but could actually just jump right into a replay, even if it isn't yours. I know that feature wasn't in the game at the start, but it is still a milestone. Clans were great, comboed with Bnet actually functioning as a social hub. I’d love to see em come back in a more meaningful form, for example your clan could compete with other clans on your average MMR on a clan ladder, that’d be fun. Clan wars were fun and it was smoother to do it with having an integrated clan function. Especially in a 1v1 focused game, it’s a way to indulge some of a social function within those confines But yeah SC2 did add some upgrades too, resume from replay is great | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 31 2024 21:22 Nakajin wrote: I'll jump over the rather ridiculous idea that D3 was a bust, but SC2 having less functionnality than BW, what? I can't think of a single "functionnality" BW has that SC2 does not, but SC2 also an entire additional Coop mode which is played widely and the campain is way longer and more varied mechanicly compared to BW. SC2 is one the best selling PC game of all time, certainly one of the best selling RTS and is regularly included in various publications' list of the best games of all time. If that's not success idk what is. They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1142 Posts
On November 01 2024 10:21 NoobSkills wrote: They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. So basically you have no idea what you are talking about, but wanted to point out that "hurrdurr BW"? How did you manage to be wrong on basically every point, that's almost an achievement in its own right... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On November 01 2024 10:21 NoobSkills wrote: They might have fixed it after release, and suckered a few more people into a dead end game with patches and expansions. I'm sure it sold great, and I'm sure the amount of people still playing it is near zero even pre-d4 launch. But we'll skip over D3, and go towards SC2. Compare it to broodwar. Bnet functions worse. Each entity costing 60+ dollars being inferior in campaign than either SC or BW. The lack of custom map making tools, which may have been added recently. The non existent chat channels at launch which then were hastily made in a worse form than we had previously. As for the coop mode I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps I missed that function? As for SC2 being one of the best selling PC games that is just nonsense. I'm not even sure how high it ranks in RTS, but RTS overall doesn't really compare if we're being honest in a general numbers sold sense. But I believe warcraft 3 and AOE2 have sold similar amounts and they were made over a decade before SC2. And while touting off the numbers sold is all fine and good, they've retained nearly none of them, those sales boosted off the advertising that was the previous titles which were better. SC2 sold well over double what WC3 did, it’s retained numbers decently enough given it’s like 15 years old Co-op was only added half a decade plus ago and the Frost Giant people said from their internal numbers working at Blizz that it was the most popular game mode by a distance It’s had a more powerful, albeit harder to use editor for forever | ||
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Volka
Argentina408 Posts
On October 24 2024 10:53 Woosixion wrote: I think the best form of protest is if we the community collectively uninstall the game and start playing brood war. This is so funny. Made my day. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1627 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1627 Posts
(to be clear making Protoss the best definitively is not the goal, but if that accidentally happens as a result of them getting real change so be it. Zerg was clearly OP during Serral and Rogues dominance. If zerg wasn't op would it have received repeated nerfs? Take any player bias aside, because I also think Serral is the goat, but why would you nerf a race if you didn't think it was too strong? So, if Zerg won off banes that were too strong, nydus that were too strong, creep that was too strong, mass queens that are too strong, if protoss wins because we make some of their units OP then so be it. Protoss can win on individual merit, which means the community acknowledges their achievement and the race doesn't get nerfed after they win, OR they win off broken shit and it's like 60% of tournament wins ever. JUST.MAKE.PROTOSS.VIABLE. whatever it takes. Stop the BS.) | ||
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