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It's kind of chicken or egg problem, but I've been wondering this for while after watching both SC2 and BW: was SC2 truly doomed from start in Korea or was it just a lack of content creation that exacerbated and led to current state?
TY claimed that his SC2 streaming is doubtful due to "lack of streamers to stream with". TY's retirement and reason for not going to SC2 streaming really reflects on the SC2 streaming scene in Korea; Did lack of content creation lead to and perpetuate dwindling popularity of SC2 in Korea?
Would the SC2 scene in Korea at least be way more vibrant had SC2 pros had gotten together to create content just like BW did after pro-league collapse?
If you compare between BW and SC2 after their respective proleague collapse, the situation mirrors very similarly here but with one big difference:
BW streamers adapted and embraced streaming and content creation while SC2 Pros did not.
example of TY's stream- left: "personality"-driven BW stream vs right: "individual" focus SC2 streaming
Former BW pros that couldn't adapt to SC2 after proleague swapped to SC2 went to individual streaming and content creation that eventually turned current BW scene into a giant it is today. While BW had more of fanbase and entire generations of fans, they also had to start with no-name players and had to grow it form nothing instead of being established names.
SC2 Pros on otherhand were on similar situation. They had proleague scene that just collapsed and had to make their own living w/o a teamhouse support. But instead of turning for SC2 content creation/streaming like BW did, sc2 pros mostly instead mostly opted to go for individual stream if there were any and online tournaments over swapping to a content creation format.
SC2 had the formula to success laid out to them through BW's past; BW's content cycle/creation focused around group content and chemistry led to pros at all skill level and viewership to earn a living and have active fanbase. This allowed carving out niche at all skill levels/viewer levels leading to a more varied and active scene. However, SC2 pro streaming didn't really adapt and chose to go for individual streaming on rare occasion they did stream. Without the said content creation and something watchable going on, the Korean SC2 scene just dwindled and withered away, especially youtube content wise.
But it's not like SC2 didn't have successful personalities to become a successful streamer. Rain and MC both started out with streaming SC2 at start but moved on after few weeks of it. And they went on to become very successful personality in variety streaming as well as becoming established BW streamers afterwards. SoulKey also went to BW despite having more of career in SC2. Dear and s0s also went with BW streaming after SC2 briefly with SC uni. Were these choices done due to the relatively barren streaming environment SC2 offered? How many other players chose differently due to this reason?
With Twitch closing down on Korea, it was another blow to SC2 Korean scene, but talk between ForGG and 815 on difference between SC2 and BW streaming really said a lot here:
815: Did you talk with other SC2 streamers together about what to do?
Forgg: There isn't really collab stream [culture] in SC2. It's all solo.
815: I know you prefer solo. how about with players like Stats?
I know you prefer being solo but surely you guys would all gather up in a call together and stream
Forgg: It's all individuals
815: You don't keep up with Stats even though we were all KT?
815: You sure it isn't just you and everyone else in SC2 already planned to move to another platform together?
Forgg: No, like everyone are kind of on their own separate path [once twitch ends]
(regarding moving platform)
In a way, it does seem like if there was a more content-creation centric streaming scene/youtube scene for SC2, there would have been more of snowball effect on pros choosing to stay with SC2 or at least give korean fans a reason to stick around and support SC2. But the sheer lack of content just closed door even for pros considering jumping in.
As of now, there is almost 0 presence of SC2 streaming really, and no real content creation on youtube other than Crank and some other former pros (but they all tend to be seperate). But would this have been different had pros chose differently after proleague collapsed?
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Interesting topic... i also reacted when I saw TY say that there's no others to stream with.
I think content creation would definitely would help. Even if the game feels old or stale to people, creating new content would be a way to enjoy SC2 in fresh ways. It can gain new fans, and together with a tournament structure that allows some path from masters to GM/semi-pro and then to challenging pros to qualify for a tournament, we'd have the basic building blocks of getting new blood and interest into the game.
It would be really sad if SC2 hits rock bottom eventually in KR and it can never bounce back. Unfortunately, with how little interest there seems to be in SC2 (proleague ending and stuff didn't help), that might never happen...
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Doomed from the start? If you mean in the same way that I was doomed to die from the start of my life, then sure, I guess.
The game has just run its course. It's a really old game now, in a genre that declined in popularity as MOBAs and later Battle Royales gained. People have always preferred team games over individual ones, both to play and to watch.
There is tons of content out there about why SC1 has persisted where SC2 has eventually petered out. Check out Tasteless' interview with StarcraftHistorian, that gives a good explanation to a lot of what you're asking.
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On March 14 2024 04:53 Haighstrom wrote:
Doomed from the start? If you mean in the same way that I was doomed to die from the start of my life, then sure, I guess.
The game has just run its course. It's a really old game now, in a genre that declined in popularity as MOBAs and later Battle Royales gained. People have always preferred team games over individual ones, both to play and to watch.
There is tons of content out there about why SC1 has persisted where SC2 has eventually petered out. Check out Tasteless' interview with StarcraftHistorian, that gives a good explanation to a lot of what you're asking.
I'm questioning that exactly. Is it really true when you claim "game just ran its course" when BW showed the opposite despite starting out from similar disadvantageous condition? Is it really that or is it because there just was no content for viewers to stick and hang around with?
BW's streaming scene and culture proved that there could be niche carved even for minor streamers. And there certainly were enough personalities from SC2 to become successful streamers, with biggest example being MC and Rain, with other examples like Dear, s0s,SoulKey, ect to draw from.
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I just don't think there ever was a Korean audience for sc2 and especially not on twitch. BW has popularity in Korea still and since most of the viewers/interest for that game are in Korea and therefore conducive to streaming on Afreeca it makes monetizing it much easier.
TY, Parting and back in the day Polt (edit: I'm sure there's more like Kiwian & select as well) are the only sc2 players I remember really trying to speak English. Without speaking English it can be hard to connect with the audience for sc2 which is primarily going to be foreigners. Then you add to that the timezone issues and I think its just tough to successfully stream.
Also fwiw on twitch really no StarCraft streamers get big viewers numbers. Winter (real viewers or not) was one of the biggest streams for sc2 for a while. (Just checked and sc2 has 1.8k viewers in total).
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On March 14 2024 05:02 Moonerz wrote:
I just don't think there ever was a Korean audience for sc2 and especially not on twitch. BW has popularity in Korea still and since most of the viewers/interest for that game are in Korea and therefore conducive to streaming on Afreeca it makes monetizing it much easier.
TY, Parting and back in the day Polt are the only sc2 players I remember really trying to speak English. Without speaking English it can be hard to connect with the audience for sc2 which is primarily going to be foreigners. Then you add to that the timezone issues and I think its just tough to successfully stream.
Also fwiw on twitch really no StarCraft streamers get big viewers numbers. Winter (real viewers or not) was one of the biggest streams for sc2 for a while. (Just checked and sc2 has 1.8k viewers in total).
There was small audience for SC2 in Korea; but that doesn't mean it had to stay that way. Maybe it got to that point precisely because there were lack of content to retain/grow said audience. Viewers, however small, still had active viewers through proleague however small. This is more of advantage to start with than no-namers C-teamer streamers who started the current BW wave (Britney, Terror, Larva, ect - you can include people like Pusan after)
Rain and MC were able to carve out large following through their own personality. MC in particular had a successful youtube series and then transitioned into BW after. Maybe had they went on with SC2 and SC2 environment was more welcoming to this kind of thing (instead of past and current individual streams), maybe future could have looked a lot different.
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How many of BW's audience in Korea are kids? It's really about what the kids are playing/watching after school. I suspect BW's audience are older as a legacy of its status as a cultural phenomenon. SC2 and most other games didn't have that in Korea so when the game has run its course in terms of popularity with the younger demographics, which is still maintained with other more popular games like LoL, you're only left with legacy fans. BW certainly have more legacy fans in Korea, but it's much smaller than SC2 elsewhere. Another thing is that I think the variety content for SC2 are found more on Youtube rather than Twitch or Afreeca, but in Korea it's all about live streaming entertainment for content creation whereas SC2 at least outside of Korea it's more about making interesting (aka meme) videos rather than live stream.
no real content creation on youtube other than Crank and some other former pros (but they all tend to be seperate)
Like this is certainly not the case for non-Korean personalities.
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I think it is often overlooked (in a weird way) that when we talk about BW, we talk about one country and one scene alone. Yes, BW survived throughout the ages - in Korea. And while SC2 was popular in Korea as long as it was popular on a global scale, that interest dwindled over time. BW however stayed popular..but again, only in Korea, which isn't surprising considering the legacy it has there.
There is actualy somewhat (though on a smaller scale) of a twin to this: Age of Empires 1 (yes, 1) popularity in Vietnam. For some reason AoE1, even long before it got its Remastered and then the "translation" into AoE 2, was and is extremly popular in Vietnam. So popular, that when RedBull did its whole "we basically get together every pro from every AoE-game"-tournament, the entire AoE 1 tourney was just Vietnamese.
There are some AoE 2 players from Vietnam aswell, but they are fewer and far less relevant (except for ACCM maybe).
The same can be applied for BroodWar, even before SC2: Of course BroodWar was this massive thing in Korea, but on a global scale, it was basically a pocket. Yes, there was of course international BW competition, but it was much smaller compared to Warcraft 3 (again, globally). But BW was much more popular in Korea than WC3 (in part through the MBC-scandal), so it "survived" through that aswell.
Maybe the entire thing isn't so complicated and can just be summed up with this: There is a substantial, though I believe not growing, number of koreans who just love BW over anything else. And these guys and gals will stay with the game come what may. And that is the entire "secret".
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United States337 Posts
I think it is a couple of things. For one, I think a lot of players looked down on the early BW streamers on AfreecaTV. Terror / ChulGu was making a ton of money, but was always surrounded with controversy. However, those streamers could definitely put on a show, which I never really saw Korean SC2 streamers do. The only exception is maybe Dragon, who was one of the few Korean streamers to try and connect with a global audience.
Watching players grind out ladder games with zero commentary had its time, but it's not going to help build up an audience these days, in my opinion at least. For a Korean SC2 streamer to survive, they probably need to cater to a global audience to some degree. If not, then they need to stop approaching it as a solo effort and try to improve as a streamer from a content perspective. But TY is right to an extent, there is no one to stream SC2 with (on Afreeca).
And as others have mentioned, there is no new blood coming into SC2 in Korea. Whose fault is it? Well, that can be debated endlessly, but let's consider what Afreeca streamers have done with BW. They've been able to pull other streamers in, like 여캠 and more recently VTubers. That get's BW in front of a potentially new audience, which may keep their ecosystem going a bit longer.
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There is also the game itself. Bw has range, you go to pc bangs with friends you can play 3v3, 4v4, ffa, fastest, fun UMS etc. Sc2 is broken and somewhat boring in multiplayer by comparison. Add to that the fact the team proleague died fairly early and they forced the transition from bw at a meh time for sc2 when it wasnt that great to watch and the audience left is mostly hardcore 1v1 folks. Sc2 hit an unfortunate sequence of being kinda boring at that key moment (bl/infestor, gomTvT, Swatmhosts...)
Sc2 alsp somewhat felt propped up by money in korea with limited actual grass root interest. Whereas bw was already a cult game you kinda had to try with friends. It brought somewhat new blood, female leagues, the university system nowadays too. Part of it is because tjwre was always a bw audience through nostalgia or kids now knowing of it from their parent and part of it was as you say how a lot of bw embraced streaming early
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On March 14 2024 07:15 afreecaTV.Char wrote:
I think it is a couple of things. For one, I think a lot of players looked down on the early BW streamers on AfreecaTV. Terror / ChulGu was making a ton of money, but was always surrounded with controversy. However, those streamers could definitely put on a show, which I never really saw Korean SC2 streamers do. The only exception is maybe Dragon, who was one of the few Korean streamers to try and connect with a global audience.
Watching players grind out ladder games with zero commentary had its time, but it's not going to help build up an audience these days, in my opinion at least. For a Korean SC2 streamer to survive, they probably need to cater to a global audience to some degree. If not, then they need to stop approaching it as a solo effort and try to improve as a streamer from a content perspective. But TY is right to an extent, there is no one to stream SC2 with (on Afreeca).
And as others have mentioned, there is no new blood coming into SC2 in Korea. Whose fault is it? Well, that can be debated endlessly, but let's consider what Afreeca streamers have done with BW. They've been able to pull other streamers in, like 여캠 and more recently VTubers. That get's BW in front of a potentially new audience, which may keep their ecosystem going a bit longer.
For sure. Age of silent gaming has for sure been over now. You can also see with 1v1 spon culture has lessened tons over time and the streamers are increasingly way more content-friendly over having silent 1v1 stream. Even silent gamers like SoulKey, Calm and Light adapted to the streaming meta and connecting with audience. Last arguably succeeded the most in this department going from monotone 1v1 gamer to the biggest casual content creator now.
It's just that persistence with the silent 1v1 streaming in sc2 and also the pure inconsistency of said streaming left me with the question of the "what if" of sc2 streaming scene really. It's sad to see game I enjoyed a lot once upon a time reach this state when there certainly were personalities in SC2 Pros that could have been it. Just look at guys like Rain, Dear, MC, ect.
Seeing BW dwindle and people talking about "boring scene" and "finally dead" to exploding again with SC uni and MPL formats, with them continue to trying to recruit more streamers/content creators afterwards to try to always maintain their viewership has left me wondering a lot about what-ifs of SC2 streaming scene.
Even w/o that, what about the niche in non-1v1 like custom games/coop? FBH has a very successful content going with UMS and just analyzing BW and gathering massive casual audience. What says SC2 can't do that? Customs in SC2 arguably has infinitely bigger potential as well.
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Probably the moment when we decided as a community that tier 2 Koreans didn't deserve a shot and instead we should let Europeans and Americans win wasn't great for korean SC2.
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sc2 is a decent game now but in the beginning it stripped away a lot of the things that made bw great for very little in return.
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United States1883 Posts
On March 14 2024 07:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Probably the moment when we decided as a community that tier 2 Koreans didn't deserve a shot and instead we should let Europeans and Americans win wasn't great for korean SC2.
You do realize the last KeSPA Draft happened before Region Lock existed, right? There never was going to be another generation of Korean sc2 players, regardless of what happened with Proleague.
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On March 14 2024 07:57 Comedy wrote:
sc2 is a decent game now but in the beginning it stripped away a lot of the things that made bw great for very little in return.
yeah as much as people complain about balance and design these days, it's the best it's ever been compared to all the previous iterations.
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Northern Ireland25599 Posts
Interesting topic!
Aside from quite a large foreign audience, I’d also say they skew older and have different tastes by and large.
I’ve got some free time in my life, almost all of my SC viewing is meaningful big tournaments, rather than a lot of streaming content. I’ll dip in the odd time.
I’d imagine that’s rather common. I like Harstem’s stuff and I’ll dip in to his channel, and a few other guys, they do good stuff. I’ve long been a Grubby fan but I dip into VoDs on YT that interest me rather than streams. So I do certainly consume some content in this domain.
I’d also add that it’s a different skill set to be a real good content creator, and a real top level progamer. While it’s declined there is still money to be made as a competitor, and it’s difficult to be very good at both, at the same time.
Do you make that pivot or do you make what hay is left in a scene that is gradually declining anyway?
The folks who it makes most sense to go the content creation path, namely those not really in contention to make much prize money, conversely generally don’t have the same appeal or draw as the top names.
Quite a lot of things all compounding each other I think on this topic
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 14 2024 06:40 Balnazza wrote:
I think it is often overlooked (in a weird way) that when we talk about BW, we talk about one country and one scene alone. Yes, BW survived throughout the ages - in Korea. And while SC2 was popular in Korea as long as it was popular on a global scale, that interest dwindled over time. BW however stayed popular..but again, only in Korea, which isn't surprising considering the legacy it has there.
There is actualy somewhat (though on a smaller scale) of a twin to this: Age of Empires 1 (yes, 1) popularity in Vietnam. For some reason AoE1, even long before it got its Remastered and then the "translation" into AoE 2, was and is extremly popular in Vietnam. So popular, that when RedBull did its whole "we basically get together every pro from every AoE-game"-tournament, the entire AoE 1 tourney was just Vietnamese.
There are some AoE 2 players from Vietnam aswell, but they are fewer and far less relevant (except for ACCM maybe).
The same can be applied for BroodWar, even before SC2: Of course BroodWar was this massive thing in Korea, but on a global scale, it was basically a pocket. Yes, there was of course international BW competition, but it was much smaller compared to Warcraft 3 (again, globally). But BW was much more popular in Korea than WC3 (in part through the MBC-scandal), so it "survived" through that aswell.
Maybe the entire thing isn't so complicated and can just be summed up with this: There is a substantial, though I believe not growing, number of koreans who just love BW over anything else. And these guys and gals will stay with the game come what may. And that is the entire "secret".
Yeah, that's where I am too. I don't think there's anything particular about the BW streaming scene. It just was a very popular game for a long time, lots of people stuck with it and they kept the scene alive. You need to have people interested to engage in more niche content creation. I'm sure we'll still have some great lol community content in 10-15-20 years
We're just not used to it in gaming yet, no one's surprised there are still Cher and Neil Diamond diehard fans. It's probably not because they reinvented themselves in the last 25 years.
I'm not criticizing, I check SC2 news every day in 2024 lol.
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51476 Posts
also need to consider that there's just a lot more fans of bw in korea willing to throw away their hard earned manwon's into balloons to streamers for their entertainment compared to sc2. sc2 just doesn't have the fanbase to sustain the streamer culture we see in bw.
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On March 14 2024 07:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2024 07:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Probably the moment when we decided as a community that tier 2 Koreans didn't deserve a shot and instead we should let Europeans and Americans win wasn't great for korean SC2. You do realize the last KeSPA Draft happened before Region Lock existed, right? There never was going to be another generation of Korean sc2 players, regardless of what happened with Proleague.
I probably shouldn't reply and just let you and the other person duke it out, but this doesn't seem responsive
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United States33429 Posts
Personally I don't think there's any sort of chicken-egg dilemma regarding games and their surrounding content. The popularity of a game drives content, period. If lots of people play a game, then lots of people will be interested in the surrounding content, whether that's streams, youtube videos, or esports.
(I will say that influencer content DOES play a part in discovery/marketing, but the fundamental 'fun-ness' of a game and its ability to retain players is that matters. What percent of paid-influencer sessions for games actually succeed?)
SC2 supports one full-time content guy right now in the form of Crank; I think that's about the saturation point considering its popularity (or lack thereof) in the country. Even if there is some undersaturation in KR for SC2 content, I gotta think it's by like 1~2 more guys MAX (consider the # of non-English creators in YOUR country for SC2).
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