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I just realized this a month ago but apparently, the resources lost counter does not consider the following:
- Resources lost when a worker changes from holding Minerals to Gas and vice versa before depositing it to base.
- Resources lost when a worker dies while holding Minerals or Gas.
- Resources lost when Drones are still holding resources and then mutates itself into a building
- Resources lost when Banelings explode and deal damage to enemy units or buildings (I think). This is a big one in my opinion because it makes Zerg look like they are more efficient than they actually are. To morph Banelings, it costs a total of 50/25. Now let's say in a long 25 minute macro game, 100 Banelings exploded onto enemy units. This means 5000/2500 resources were used and not being counted in the resources lost tab, which is effectively equivalent to almost 3 full mineral patches and over 1 gas geyser worth of resources.
As we know, being efficient in SC2 is incredibly important, especially in long macro games. If the Resources Lost counter actually makes the above changes, then I think it more accurately reflects the resources lost by any player.
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First 3 are irrelevant, but... that last one??? Is that really not counted? If, I agree it should be.
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If you kill your own unit it doesn't count as well, right? It's not about what is taken from the map, it is about how much the opponent killed, at least it should be.
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holy crap, it doesn't count banelings?
On February 24 2024 16:40 ejozl wrote:
If you kill your own unit it doesn't count as well, right? It's not about what is taken from the map, it is about how much the opponent killed, at least it should be.
Ah that'd make sense. That definitely seems like what the devs would think first. "Resources lost to the opponent".
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On February 24 2024 15:03 Ciaus237 wrote:
First 3 are irrelevant, but... that last one??? Is that really not counted? If, I agree it should be.
Nope none of the ones I posted do. I found out on Rotti's stream during the ESL weekly. He answered me saying it doesn't count.
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Wow so tournaments/caster have been using resources lost as a major part of narrative, since the beginning of the game, and it's actually incorrect. The Baneling one is huge. That's so strange.
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Northern Ireland27460 Posts
Now you mention and it seems as a rule it only counts units directly killed by the opponent, do cancelled buildings count? If cancelled manually and not forced by being killed during construction by attacks.
It would seem by the rule of thumb established that they wouldn’t. Be it cancelling that Nexus right before it dies, or saving a drone by turning it into a building that you subsequently cancel.
Interesting thread, regardless of how it happens resources lost that are actually unrecoverable should be counted because ultimately they are gone.
Also bear in mind this is a game being maintained by one poor intern, or perhaps merely their ghost, loosely tethered to the mortal realm by the collective passion of SC fans at this point. How do the commonly used overlays pull this info I wonder, are they just lifting these wholesale from under-the-hood metrics and just presenting them, or are they generating them in a more bespoke manner?
If the former, perhaps there’s nothing to pull easily that would say, account for a worker dying while holding resources. It’s not counted in the SC2 game’s ’resources lost’ metric, so it won’t be when you pull it out and display it. If it’s the latter and there’s a bit of wriggle room maybe the overlays could account for them?
You could split the metrics into two to give a little more granular
1. Resources lost - Just an outright, total number
2. Combat trades - Measuring that direct number of units killed by opponents in the game.
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On February 24 2024 23:42 WombaT wrote:
Now you mention and it seems as a rule it only counts units directly killed by the opponent, do cancelled buildings count? If cancelled manually and not forced by being killed during construction by attacks.
Cancelled buildings do count to resources lost. It's like when Zergs do the extractor trick or Pylons get cancelled, the minerals lost show up in the Resources Lost tab.
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The first 3 should remain as they are, because: It's not counted in your Resources Gathered either. Resources Gathered - Resources Lost should equal Resources Worth of all your units+buildings+upgrades/abilities. If it's never counted in Resources Gathered, then there's no reason it should be Resources Lost. (Unless the Resources Gathered increases at the moment the worker mines it, instead of the moment the worker returns it to the base. I think it's the latter, because that's when your mineral/gas count changes. I would be very surprised if it's the former.)
The baneling one is very strange, indeed. It makes sense if it's included, just like the cancelled buildings, because you spend resources on it.
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I do not think I understand the last point regarding the banelings.
Are the detonated banelings being counted into the resources lost at any particular event of the game?
Like if 1 baneling kills a marine, is the baneling cost being counted into the resources lost for Zerg same as the marine cost for the Terran or not?
Is it same or different if the marine is not being killed, only damaged?
Is the caluculation same for units and buildings?
Is the caluculation same for a-move and manual detonation?
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I guess if the opponent kills your banelings, it's counted into resources lost.
Thankfully, that's the majority of the case, since people roll in banelings so they also serve to tank damage.
Occasionally people will manually detonate banelings, like rolling into PFs, but thankfully it's not most of baneling usage
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On February 25 2024 05:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I guess if the opponent kills your banelings, it's counted into resources lost.
Thankfully, that's the majority of the case, since people roll in banelings so they also serve to tank damage.
Occasionally people will manually detonate banelings, like rolling into PFs, but thankfully it's not most of baneling usage
I believe this is correct. So the accuracy kind of depends on what type of game it is. If banelings are trading with bio it's going to be pretty accurate as they're usually gunned down since they're move commanded. But in games where the zerg is right clicking planetary fortresses over and over it's going to be misleading. And often it's those type of late games where the resources lost come into play more.
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On February 25 2024 05:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I guess if the opponent kills your banelings, it's counted into resources lost.
Thankfully, that's the majority of the case, since people roll in banelings so they also serve to tank damage.
Occasionally people will manually detonate banelings, like rolling into PFs, but thankfully it's not most of baneling usage
Damaging buildings with Banelings counts towards resources lost I think.
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On February 25 2024 13:09 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2024 05:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I guess if the opponent kills your banelings, it's counted into resources lost.
Thankfully, that's the majority of the case, since people roll in banelings so they also serve to tank damage.
Occasionally people will manually detonate banelings, like rolling into PFs, but thankfully it's not most of baneling usage Damaging buildings with Banelings counts towards resources lost I think.
Oh that's interesting lol
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EPT
