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Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
That is pretty crazy as factoids go.
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On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them
-Katowice (lost to eventual champ)
-WeSG (lost to eventual champ)
-GSLvsTW (won)
-Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ)
-Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
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France12761 Posts
On January 26 2024 04:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable. The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments. Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them. Katowice (lost to eventual champ) WeSG (lost to eventual champ) GSLvsTW (won) Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) Blizzcon (lost) For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive? For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
It’s surprising he didn’t win BlizzCon when Zerg was at its most OP, but he suffers the same fate as the likes of Maru, sometimes being the best at their race vs X, but not in mirror.
Maru benefited from being the last Terran alive and when he wasn’t, he barely won vs TY in an epic finals. Afterwards, he couldn’t beat TY when Terran was doing better which allowed BaBy to have good results more easily
One has to wonder if Maru would have been as invincible in 2022-2023 TvT if TY didn’t have to go to the military
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On January 26 2024 04:29 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 04:24 Fango wrote:On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable. The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments. Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them. Katowice (lost to eventual champ) WeSG (lost to eventual champ) GSLvsTW (won) Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) Blizzcon (lost) For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive? For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat. It’s surprising he didn’t win BlizzCon when Zerg was at its most OP, but he suffers the same fate as the likes of Maru, sometimes being the best at their race vs X, but not in mirror. Maru benefited from being the last Terran alive and when he wasn’t, he barely won vs TY in an epic finals. Afterwards, he couldn’t beat TY when Terran was doing better which allowed BaBy to have good results more easily One has to wonder if Maru would have been as invincible in 2022-2023 TvT if TY didn’t have to go to the military
Even soO finally won in 2019 largely down to his ZvZ. The best mirror players tend to win the most when their race is good. Zest’s all-time great 2014 came because he was the best PvP player, and protoss was the best race (he even won a trophy playing exclusively PvP, talk about bracket luck). And TY's insane early 2017 run was like 90% TvT.
Serral's losses in 2019 were mostly against the few non-zergs that ended up winning (Stats & Inno). Blizzcon was always gonna be the top 4 zergs, and even if Serral's the best it’s like a 40/20/20/20 split between them.
As for Maru, he would have won less without TY going to the military, that's for sure. But they were pretty much 50/50 in GSL, it's a shame the second finals between them is remembered as "Maru couldn't win" when he was so injured he could only play a few games a day and was in the hospital 3x a week for treatment. I think him making the finals that season is actually one of his biggest achievements.
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Funny how all the people trying to discredit rogue by saying he won when Zerg was favourable. Yet nothing is said about mvp and inno when their dominance was during the Imba terran times. Similar can be said about Maru during the proxy meta and current terran meta the last couple years
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On January 26 2024 04:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable. The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments. Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them -Katowice (lost to eventual champ) -WeSG (lost to eventual champ) -GSLvsTW (won) -Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) -Blizzcon (lost) For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive? For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
You leave out two homestory cups he won which had enough top korean players/reynor to still be very meaningful.
And for this
Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Isn't that even more impressive .
No, bluntly. The Serral stat is already kind of arbitrary because we are allowing him to lose to a champion - but at least that makes sense: Serral won every event or lost to the guy who was absolutely playing out of his mind on that day/weekend. But if you expand it to "lost to champion or finalist" I think its like just a very arbitrary stat now and not as meaningful.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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On January 26 2024 05:01 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 04:24 Fango wrote:On January 26 2024 03:39 Pandain wrote:On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players. Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable. The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments. Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them -Katowice (lost to eventual champ) -WeSG (lost to eventual champ) -GSLvsTW (won) -Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) -Blizzcon (lost) For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive? For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat. You leave out two homestory cups he won which had enough top korean players/reynor to still be very meaningful
Forgive me, the first HSC wasn't considered Premier on liquipedia so I missed it when checking the results, if you disagree with their placement fair enough . And the second came after Blizzcon, which wasn't within the timeframe you mentioned (2019 until the World Finals).
On January 26 2024 05:01 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote + Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Isn't that even more impressive . No, bluntly. The Serral stat is already kind of arbitrary because we are allowing him to lose to a champion - but at least that makes sense: Serral won every event or lost to the guy who was absolutely playing out of his mind on that day/weekend. But if you expand it to "lost to champion or finalist" I think its like just a very arbitrary stat now and not as meaningful.
Do you seriously think that winning 1/5 tournaments, while losing to the champ in 3, is more impressive than winning 3/9?
I agree that expanding to "lost to a finalist" is too broad, but Serral only "lost to the champ" in 3 tournaments, hardly an all-time great stat like people are claiming.
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On January 26 2024 04:58 TossHeroes wrote:
Funny how all the people trying to discredit rogue by saying he won when Zerg was favourable. Yet nothing is said about mvp and inno when their dominance was during the Imba terran times. Similar can be said about Maru during the proxy meta and current terran meta the last couple years
The proxy meta where no terran except Maru won a tournament? The last couple years where Zerg is dominating everything?
Are you like living in an alternate reality?
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to be clear.
serral is not number 1.
MC is top 10 all time.
MVP is the best ever.
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On January 25 2024 23:29 Fango wrote:
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
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On January 26 2024 12:50 Telephone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 23:29 Fango wrote:
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker). Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far.
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I watched soO's IEM win live on stream. When he and Smix started crying on stage, I got more than a little teary-eyed myself. It was such a beautiful moment to see this man finally lift a big trophy. 🏆
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Poland3748 Posts
On January 26 2024 16:05 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 12:50 Telephone wrote:On January 25 2024 23:29 Fango wrote:
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker). Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL. Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far.
In all fairness you can easily reverse the argument - weekend tournaments test your pure skill. Starleague format rewards preparation and dissection of player you're specifically facing. It is different case, where you play not only game but also a player. Proleague was fostering this culture in Korea for years, where even lower ranked players could be brought up to snipe superior player with meticulously prepared build order that worked only once and sometimes only on specific map. Like I remember crazy games like that.
I'm fully aware, that for Artosis this kind of argument is basically blasphemy and heresy in one.
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On January 26 2024 17:36 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 16:05 Argonauta wrote:On January 26 2024 12:50 Telephone wrote:On January 25 2024 23:29 Fango wrote:
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker). Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL. Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far. In all fairness you can easily reverse the argument - weekend tournaments test your pure skill. Starleague format rewards preparation and dissection of player you're specifically facing. It is different case, where you play not only game but also a player. Proleague was fostering this culture in Korea for years, where even lower ranked players could be brought up to snipe superior player with meticulously prepared build order that worked only once and sometimes only on specific map. Like I remember crazy games like that. I'm fully aware, that for Artosis this kind of argument is basically blasphemy and heresy in one.
What you have brought up has nothing to do with the argument of "weaker" GSL that some want to push in.
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SoO, the 2nd greatest player of all time
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On January 26 2024 12:50 Telephone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 23:29 Fango wrote:
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker). Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Also if GSLs are weaker because of all the retirements than all the tournaments Serral won are also weaker because every retired korean also doesn't participate anymore in international events. Serral, Reynor and Clem alone don't make up for 10-15 top koreans retiring
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People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
From 2018 on, Premiers both have played:
WESG 2017 > Maru won, Serral 3rd.
IEM XII > Both Ro4
GSL vs TW 2018 > Serral 1st, Maru Ro4
WESG 2018 > Serral 2nd, Maru 3rd
WCS Global 2018 > Serral champ
GSL vs TW 2019 > Serral 1st
WCS Global 2019 > Serral Ro4, Maru Ro8
IEM Katowice 2020 > Both Ro4
DH Summer Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro8
DH Winter Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro16
King of Battles International > Maru won, Serral Ro8
IEM Katowice 2021 > Maru Ro4, Serral Ro12
Next Masters 2021 S1 > Maru 3rd, Serral Ro8
Teamliquid Starleague 6 > Serral 2nd, Maru 4th
DH Masters 2021 Winter > Maru won, Serral Ro8
King of Battles 2 > Maru won, Serral 2nd
TSL 8 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro12
IEM Katowice 2022 > Serral won, Maru Ro8
DH Masters Last Chance 2021 > Maru won, Serral Ro12
King of Battles 3 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro4
TSL 9 > Serral won, Maru 2nd
DH Masters 2022 Atlanta > Both Ro4
IEM Katowice 2023 > Maru 2nd, Serral Ro8
DH Master Summer 2023 > Serral won, Maru Ro12
Masters Coliseum 6 > Serral won, Maru 4th
ESL Masters Winter 2023 > Serral 4th, Maru 17th-24th
Serral ahead in 15. Maru ahead in 8.
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
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On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote:
People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
From 2018 on, Premiers both have played:
WESG 2017 > Maru won, Serral 3rd.
IEM XII > Both Ro4
GSL vs TW 2018 > Serral 1st, Maru Ro4
WESG 2018 > Serral 2nd, Maru 3rd
WCS Global 2018 > Serral champ
GSL vs TW 2019 > Serral 1st
WCS Global 2019 > Serral Ro4, Maru Ro8
IEM Katowice 2020 > Both Ro4
DH Summer Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro8
DH Winter Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro16
King of Battles International > Maru won, Serral Ro8
IEM Katowice 2021 > Maru Ro4, Serral Ro12
Next Masters 2021 S1 > Maru 3rd, Serral Ro8
Teamliquid Starleague 6 > Serral 2nd, Maru 4th
DH Masters 2021 Winter > Maru won, Serral Ro8
King of Battles 2 > Maru won, Serral 2nd
TSL 8 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro12
IEM Katowice 2022 > Serral won, Maru Ro8
DH Masters Last Chance 2021 > Maru won, Serral Ro12
King of Battles 3 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro4
TSL 9 > Serral won, Maru 2nd
DH Masters 2022 Atlanta > Both Ro4
IEM Katowice 2023 > Maru 2nd, Serral Ro8
DH Master Summer 2023 > Serral won, Maru Ro12
Masters Coliseum 6 > Serral won, Maru 4th
ESL Masters Winter 2023 > Serral 4th, Maru 17th-24th
Serral ahead in 15. Maru ahead in 8.
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2.
I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
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EPT
