#7: soO - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 6

Locutus_

Brazil65 Posts

January 26 2024 13:17 GMT

#101

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2.
I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

Mizenhauer

United States1836 Posts

January 26 2024 13:26 GMT

#102

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

If anything can be gleaned from this article series, it's that it is silly to punish a player for events they didn't play in. However, comparing maru and serral's results in tournaments in which they both participated is a really good idea and one of the primary ways you can compare them.

Locutus_

Brazil65 Posts

January 26 2024 13:44 GMT

#103

On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote:
People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?

Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...

From 2018 on, Premiers both have played:

WESG 2017 > Maru won, Serral 3rd.
IEM XII > Both Ro4
GSL vs TW 2018 > Serral 1st, Maru Ro4
WESG 2018 > Serral 2nd, Maru 3rd
WCS Global 2018 > Serral champ
GSL vs TW 2019 > Serral 1st
WCS Global 2019 > Serral Ro4, Maru Ro8
IEM Katowice 2020 > Both Ro4
DH Summer Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro8
DH Winter Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro16
King of Battles International > Maru won, Serral Ro8
IEM Katowice 2021 > Maru Ro4, Serral Ro12
Next Masters 2021 S1 > Maru 3rd, Serral Ro8
Teamliquid Starleague 6 > Serral 2nd, Maru 4th
DH Masters 2021 Winter > Maru won, Serral Ro8
King of Battles 2 > Maru won, Serral 2nd
TSL 8 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro12
IEM Katowice 2022 > Serral won, Maru Ro8
DH Masters Last Chance 2021 > Maru won, Serral Ro12
King of Battles 3 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro4
TSL 9 > Serral won, Maru 2nd
DH Masters 2022 Atlanta > Both Ro4
IEM Katowice 2023 > Maru 2nd, Serral Ro8
DH Master Summer 2023 > Serral won, Maru Ro12
Masters Coliseum 6 > Serral won, Maru 4th
ESL Masters Winter 2023 > Serral 4th, Maru 17th-24th

Serral ahead in 15. Maru ahead in 8.

PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.

Serral now 16 - Maru 8.

Charoisaur

Germany15913 Posts

January 26 2024 14:35 GMT

#104

On January 26 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

But it's not silly to punish players for events they played in that other players did not play in?? Why should Maru be punished because Serral decides not to play in the GSL?

Charoisaur

Germany15913 Posts

January 26 2024 14:36 GMT

#105

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.

Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events

Balnazza

Germany1124 Posts

January 26 2024 15:12 GMT

#106

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

If you take both of their careers, Serral almost doubles the amount of Premier event wins compared to Maru. (22 vs. 13). You could add Dark or herO to Maru and it would not be enough to overtake Serrals results. That is the raw metric in tournaments. From there on out, it will just be the infinite discussion what you rank higher: World Championships or GSL/Proleague, a longer career (in an enviroment that allows such a career) vs. a shorter, but much more dominant career.

And that is an aspect that you, me and probably most other people won't ever budge on. You rank his GSL results higher, maybe even count WESG as a "legit" World Championship. I don't count it as such and GSL is just the strongest regional event, nothing more. And someone else might say HomestoryCup is the pinnacle of SC2 achievements, which would be weird, but if that is someones metric you will probably never change that persons mind.

But please don't pretend there are any raw numbers that put Maru somehow clearly in front. There ain't. In fact, if you go by Premier events alone, Marus rival isn't Serral but Reynor (10 wins).

Locutus_

Brazil65 Posts

January 26 2024 15:48 GMT

#107

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.

An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.

Locutus_

Brazil65 Posts

January 26 2024 15:50 GMT

#108

On January 27 2024 00:12 Balnazza wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

By the way, that specific subset of tourneys also excludes many premiers Serral won (some of which top tiers Koreans participated).

Fango

United Kingdom8987 Posts

January 26 2024 16:42 GMT

#109

Winning over twice as many starleagues as anyone else, having a GOAT proleague record, winning in multiple expansions, and winning when your race sucked, are all things Maru has over Serral.

Winning more weekenders, world championships and being better in h2h tournaments are all things Serral has over Maru.

Of the three competitive formats (starleague, weekender, teamleague) that all test players differently and all make up huge portions of the games most competitive events, ignoring 2/3 of them when doing a GOAT list is a terrible way of doing history.

Remember, this isn't a discussion on who's better. It's about comparing who had the greatest career achievements. I'm not saying Maru is the GOAT, I'm saying reducing 14 years of history to only events Serral played in is absurd.

tigera6

3321 Posts

January 26 2024 17:00 GMT

#110

On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?

Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.

Pandain

United States12989 Posts

January 26 2024 18:12 GMT

#111

On January 26 2024 23:35 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 22:26 Mizenhauer wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

But it's not silly to punish players for events they played in that other players did not play in?? Why should Maru be punished because Serral decides not to play in the GSL?

I think its both possible to view the Serral-Maru in same tournament statistics as important and still find meaningful the tournament victories they won separately.

Its also simultaneously possible to view Maru's GSL achievements as unbelievably massive but also acknowledge that the arguable best player in the world was not competing in them.

I think its important to have nuanced perspectives on these things.

And the biggest punishment for Serral not playing in GSL is that ... he has no GSL victories!! So his resume needs to stand on separately from that.

Locutus_

Brazil65 Posts

January 26 2024 18:31 GMT

#112

On January 27 2024 02:00 tigera6 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.

It's by definition stupidity to say that Maru has an edge over Serral if Serral could never play GSL >>> It is by all definitions a region locked system!!

PS: Serral did go to Korea, twice. And he won, twice (Maru was there on both times).

If one wants to compare Serral vs Maru, one has quite an extensive sample to do it.
Take premiers both attended. Simple as that. > That sample extends for 6 years! Over 30 premier tourneys!

Its the best way to control the "ifs". "What if Serral had been in the same touney Maru went? Who would have fared better over the years??" >> That question can be answered!

Serral performed twice as better than Maru did in the tourneys both went to. That is indisputed.

Pandain

United States12989 Posts

January 26 2024 18:39 GMT

#113

On January 27 2024 00:12 Balnazza wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

If you take both of their careers, Serral almost doubles the amount of Premier event wins compared to Maru. (22 vs. 13).

I'm sure this goes without saying, but many (9?) of those are Europe-locked events. Now I'm the absolute last guy to completely discount those victories, but they cannot be viewed as equal to a traditional premier victory when it was Serral beating up on Special/Has/Mana e.g., although they got slightly more important when Reynor ascended and especially Clem.

Fango

United Kingdom8987 Posts

January 26 2024 18:50 GMT

#114

On January 27 2024 03:31 Locutus_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 27 2024 02:00 tigera6 wrote:

On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.

Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral

Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there.

Thirdly, this is completely irrelevant and you're ignoring the point. It isn't about who is the better player, it's about who has the greatest careers. You can't ignore all of Maru's historic achievements because Serral chose not to play or wasn't a full-time pro yet. By your same reasoning, every tournament before 2018 is meaningless because Serral wasn't around. No one is arguing Maru has the better head2head record.

JJH777

United States4391 Posts

January 26 2024 19:04 GMT

#115

Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.

Pandain

United States12989 Posts

January 26 2024 19:09 GMT

#116

On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote:
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.

This is why it's so important to be accurate. You're right that if Maru ever won a Blizzcon/Kato he would probably be an objective GOAT and head to head wouldn't matter. But he didn't. Because it's therefore not clearcut who is the greatest, it's also perfectly reasonable to consider head to head comparisons.

lolfail9001

Russian Federation40189 Posts

January 26 2024 19:43 GMT

#117

I mean, Maru being a GOAT is pretty clear cut in my book. He is not the flawless GOAT, sure, but only mediocrity can be flawless. Simply put, it is hard to not be GOAT when you were in top tier of the players for over 10 (edit: 11) years at this point out of game's 13 year lifespan. Then you add all the bonus points like being 4th race, outrageous Proleague performances and actual dominance of Korean SC2 for like last 5 years to the point where his losses often look like him playing around with stupid builds because he thinks he is playing ladder.

Balnazza

Germany1124 Posts

January 26 2024 21:39 GMT

#118

On January 27 2024 03:50 Fango wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 27 2024 03:31 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 27 2024 02:00 tigera6 wrote:

On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.

Can we stop with that please? GSL is basically region-locked. You either had to live in Korea for three months or fly over up to five times or something like that if you would go all the way. Hotel and flying costs alone would probably eat up your GSL earnings, all while worsening your chances in your "main" competition at home.
You could otherwise make the argument that GSL is mostly irrelevant, since it basically was just Maru doing well in his living room. He mostly bombed out whenever he wasn't in his absolute comfort zone, which doesn't exactly scream "GOAT". While Serral on the other hand went to Korea actually won, he just made the economically very reasonable decision to not waste his time with GSL.

(Just for clarification: Not particular a take I would do on this whole debate, but if we start being selective, then two can play that game. Includes the entire "Serral won 2018 because Zerg was totally OP that year, clearly proven by the fact that no zerg reached the GSL finals that year!!1"-take...)

Charoisaur

Germany15913 Posts

January 26 2024 21:59 GMT

#119

On January 27 2024 06:39 Balnazza wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 27 2024 03:50 Fango wrote:

On January 27 2024 03:31 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 27 2024 02:00 tigera6 wrote:

On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:

On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:

On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:

I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.

You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.

Yeah, completely outlandish that anyone would do this. Oh wait, lots of foreigners did this, just not Serral?
There was a foreigner teamhouse set up in korea to enable exactly that

Glorfindelio

200 Posts

January 26 2024 22:01 GMT

#120

I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).

Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.

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