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On January 27 2024 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 06:39 Balnazza wrote:On January 27 2024 03:50 Fango wrote:On January 27 2024 03:31 Locutus_ wrote:On January 27 2024 02:00 tigera6 wrote:On January 27 2024 00:48 Locutus_ wrote:On January 26 2024 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2024 22:17 Locutus_ wrote:On January 26 2024 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote:
People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
From 2018 on, Premiers both have played:
WESG 2017 > Maru won, Serral 3rd.
IEM XII > Both Ro4
GSL vs TW 2018 > Serral 1st, Maru Ro4
WESG 2018 > Serral 2nd, Maru 3rd
WCS Global 2018 > Serral champ
GSL vs TW 2019 > Serral 1st
WCS Global 2019 > Serral Ro4, Maru Ro8
IEM Katowice 2020 > Both Ro4
DH Summer Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro8
DH Winter Season Finals 2020 > Serral Champ, Maru Ro16
King of Battles International > Maru won, Serral Ro8
IEM Katowice 2021 > Maru Ro4, Serral Ro12
Next Masters 2021 S1 > Maru 3rd, Serral Ro8
Teamliquid Starleague 6 > Serral 2nd, Maru 4th
DH Masters 2021 Winter > Maru won, Serral Ro8
King of Battles 2 > Maru won, Serral 2nd
TSL 8 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro12
IEM Katowice 2022 > Serral won, Maru Ro8
DH Masters Last Chance 2021 > Maru won, Serral Ro12
King of Battles 3 > Serral 2nd, Maru Ro4
TSL 9 > Serral won, Maru 2nd
DH Masters 2022 Atlanta > Both Ro4
IEM Katowice 2023 > Maru 2nd, Serral Ro8
DH Master Summer 2023 > Serral won, Maru Ro12
Masters Coliseum 6 > Serral won, Maru 4th
ESL Masters Winter 2023 > Serral 4th, Maru 17th-24th
Serral ahead in 15. Maru ahead in 8.
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more. That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different. I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear. Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed. Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none. An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame. There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4? Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well. You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL. Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there. Can we stop with that please? GSL is basically region-locked. You either had to live in Korea for three months or fly over up to five times or something like that if you would go all the way. Hotel and flying costs alone would probably eat up your GSL earnings, all while worsening your chances in your "main" competition at home. Yeah, completely outlandish that anyone would do this. Oh wait, lots of foreigners did this, just not Serral? There was a foreigner teamhouse set up in korea to enable exactly that
How many GSL's did Maru NOT win? That's why GSL to head to head is irrelevant between foreigner-korean comparison! (when you have better data to analyze).
That form of thought is completely ilogical! Take the win rate of Maru's GSL's... Its what? 7/30ish?
Apply that to any foreigner playing in any given GSL he participates in. Its expected of him (even if he is the best historical player in the region, like Maru) to not win it!
So to make that comparison ("Maru has 7 GSL's and the other??"), the other player would have to have tried a similar amount of times in GSL... otherwise it is ilogical for head to head comparison.
If there was no other data, then we would have to extrapolate from those achievements... But there is. There is plenty.
I get it, that for GOAT discussion, one could go for the overall achievements... But then we are debating further than we should. We should be discussing "What does it mean to be the Greatest?" For me, that means the best... as best we can compare between player's skill/context etc.
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On January 27 2024 07:01 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote:
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not. I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry). Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
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On January 27 2024 07:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 07:01 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote:
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not. I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry). Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias. The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this.
If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
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On January 27 2024 07:38 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 07:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 27 2024 07:01 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote:
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not. I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry). Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias. The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this. If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
I don't think it has to be quantified, I just think for that reason it's stupid to only look at the tournaments they both participated in and ignore everything else. Your point is fair although Serral also left a likely won game in the ro8 of the same tournament...
At the end of the day I don't even think Maru is the Goat, I think there is no player that clearly stands above the rest and thus sc2 has no Goat. However if I HAD to pick one, I'd say Maru has the best case
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Northern Ireland27029 Posts
On January 27 2024 07:38 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 07:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 27 2024 07:01 Glorfindelio wrote:On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote:
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not. I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry). Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias. The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this. If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
Agreed, it’s a harsh judgement but equally if we’re judging the GOAT it feels we do need to bring such a lens.
If Maru had lost a few of those WC runs in some all-time great series with two S tier players playing their absolute best StarCraft, I feel my perception would be slightly different, despite the same result.
Losing while doing atypical things and making weird errors that you don’t tend to make elsewhere counts for something with such cutthroat competition.
Greatness is as much about seizing a memorable moment as it is purely about winning and skill, and in WCs Maru hasn’t really done that. Mvp being taken to the wire by Squirtle for me further solidified his greatness, more so than if he had stomped him 4-0. Which seems counter-intuitive but sometimes it’s that clutch factor, or maybe winning when you aren’t the best in raw skill that has further defined his legacy.
I still think Maru’s got a good GOAT claim despite that, he’d be basically undisputed with a few WCs, and he’d have a better claim if he’d merely ‘lost better’ in a few of those. For me anyway!
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EPT
