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On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote:
Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
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On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro?
Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue.
Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6.
Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
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On January 25 2024 22:14 RPR_Tempest wrote:
When is it exactly that GSL vs The World, KeSPA Cup, etc became seen as less-thans? Back in 2011, all the GSL side events (except for the purely online stuff with tiny prizepools like Arena of Legends) were seen as legitimate GSL Championships. Mvp of course with his 4, but Polt is undisputedly a GSL Champion. MMA was a 2x GSL Champion and nobody argued that fact.
I think even the Blizzard Cup in 2012 was seen as legit, when exactly did the change occur?
Shorter events were propped up for hype/marketing. Mvp fighting for the G5L was made into a big deal even though one of his wins wouldn't count by today's standards. By his standards, Rogue and Maru would have won G5L years go, and Zest/INno would be on 4.
Once the starleague format had settled and we didn't get 10 GSLs a year and countless other events, it became clear that Starleagues were the primary league, similar to in BW. It was also reflected in WCS points and prize money.
soO, after winning a Kespa Cup in 2015, said himself that it doesn't really count. Hell, it wasn't until 2018 that World Championships were even considered the highest tier of event by TL's standards.
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On January 25 2024 22:33 SharkStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote:
Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia. So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
To be fair: It is easy to "change the Metagame" when there isn't really a meta yet. Mvp was dominant at his time, but it was the very beginning of the game and then he rather quickly (considering the entire runtime of SC2) dropped off. Considering the amount of amazing players that would leave a mark later...can't see him make the Top 10 honestly.
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United States1896 Posts
On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
mvp wasn't good at bw. it's why he played sc2 instead of bw.
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On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
Don’t take it too seriously. Poopi is well known for his serral hate on this forum. He is a big K fan
But to answer your reply, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the goat. The real battle is who is 2nd place whether it is rogue or Maru
The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
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France12904 Posts
On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
I would be very surprised if Serral was number 1 actually.
He has basically a worse trophy case than Rogue, and has the same weak points of dominating after the kespa era, in a super favorable Zerg era.
If this was usual a « regular » goat list not taking context into account, Rogue would probably be number 1 and Maru number 2, but given Maru’s dominance in proleague, GSL, last Terran hope narrative etc, he is most probably number 1 here.
Heck, soO being #7 is a good indicator on how Maru will fare since on top of his 7 GSLs, he has several 2nd place too.
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On January 25 2024 23:07 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B. Don’t take it too seriously. Poopi is well known for his serral hate on this forum. He is a big K fan But to answer your reply, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the goat. The real battle is who is 2nd place whether it is rogue or Maru The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
And I am not taking you that seriously neither, Serral won 2 GSL vs World during that same "weak and diminished Korean scene" and get hailed for being the GOAT, and he also won several EU tournaments when the scene was even WORSE than that KR scene. Its coming down to Serral won 1 Blizzon + 1 IEM + 7 ESL tittle over Rogue who won 2 IEM + Blizzcon + 4 GSL and Maru who won WESG + 7 GSL + 2 ESL title. But in your own word that Serral "winning everything else".
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On January 25 2024 23:07 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B. The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
Yeah except for that fact Maru won two starleagues during kespa/the most competitive era. Newer fans may be unaware what OSL and SSL were but they were identical to GSL at the time (his OSL literally ran instead of GSL season 2 that year because OGN had the broadcast rights). He was the best performing terran in korean leagues throughout HotS (although INno picked up weekend tournaments to make up for it). He also set all-time records in proleague and had probably the best performance of anyone who's race was basically unplayable at the time.
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
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On January 25 2024 22:33 SharkStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote:
Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia. So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
Not going to address the Rain part but you can't forget that Mvp played in an era where there were 10 (11?) GSLs a year. I mean if we assume Maru would have won a proportionate amount of GSLs but with 10 GSLs a year, then he would have like 25 GSL wins. There's tournament inflation, basically.
Also the idea that Mvp was "completely dominant" is an absolute myth. He was, broadly speaking, the best player between 2011 and very early 2012, but I would never say he felt dominant in the way that Innovation, Rogue, Maru, and Serral later did. Those latter forms of dominance just didn't exist back in early SC2, admittedly likely because everything was still so new. He regularly lost tournaments even in early stages. I'm pretty sure between all his GSL wins he also dropped to Code A at least a couple times and maybe more, his TvP always tended to be weaker, etc.
Also its probably overstating it to say that he "changed the metagame." Can't really think of any accomplishments he did other than generically just pioneering macro Terran player, but I wouldn't say that was really unique to him. To give an example: MC by far pioneered/changed the meta of Protoss way more than Mvp.
So basically yes he was very successful, and pretty dominant to the extent anyone was in WoL, but you have to keep all the above in mind. He's still probably #5 GOAT for me after Maru/Serral/Rogue/Inno + Show Spoiler + and I despite Rogue so even happy putting Rogue out of Top 10
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As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
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United States1896 Posts
On January 26 2024 00:53 Pandain wrote:
As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
I'll cover stuff like this in blog posts once the entire top 10 is completed.
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On January 25 2024 22:55 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B. mvp wasn't good at bw. it's why he played sc2 instead of bw.
Mvp was definitely coming up in bw right around the time he switched. regular starter in proleague, got top8 in a msl etc. Probably could have left a mark.
saying he wasn't good at bw and that's why he switched to sc2 is way off the mark. at the time he swapped he was a young up and comer comparable to innovation, soulkey, rain, etc. (in bw at the time). similar age too.
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On January 26 2024 00:53 Pandain wrote:
As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
"The hater's perspective". Thing is, every player has at least something to bring them down. And people could claim anyone is discounted from being top 5 if they value those things.
Maru fumbled in every World Championship (fun fact, he has more ro4 or higher results in world championships than Serral, Rogue, or sOs, still never won).
Serral never played in a starleague or proleague, some real korean elitists would probably rank him lower similar to how they did Taeja previously. He also won during the zerg years.
Rogue never quite beat the patchzerg allegations (he even agreed with them at times), even when he continued to win people went for "well, zerg is still imba" rather than "Rogue is the best".
Mvp had all his results in a year of extreme tournament oversaturation, and where every starcraft player on his level was still playing BW. Even without the health issues, it's unlikely he would have been number 1 post-kespa switch where he wasn't just facing the C-tier BW guys.
INnoVation never had notable results in World Championships, had his dominant periods when terran was imba, and despite his reputation, was very inconsistent compared with the others (he could win Code S and then fail to qualify the next season, that happened the one time they didn't auto-seed the champ).
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On January 25 2024 23:22 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2024 22:34 imData wrote:On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote:
I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably?
Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru? What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B. I would be very surprised if Serral was number 1 actually. He has basically a worse trophy case than Rogue, and has the same weak points of dominating after the kespa era, in a super favorable Zerg era. If this was usual a « regular » goat list not taking context into account, Rogue would probably be number 1 and Maru number 2, but given Maru’s dominance in proleague, GSL, last Terran hope narrative etc, he is most probably number 1 here. Heck, soO being #7 is a good indicator on how Maru will fare since on top of his 7 GSLs, he has several 2nd place too.
Simply compare all the big events Rogue and Serral have attended together... Look at the rate of Ro4 or above. You will see Serral leagues ahead
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What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
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On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
And this becomes so clear when you look Aligulac's historic rating from 2018 on...
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On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year.
Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
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On January 26 2024 02:42 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote:
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018. Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
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EPT
