EPTGreatest Protoss player of all time? - Page 2
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kAra
Germany1426 Posts
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On January 18 2024 18:19 MJG wrote: [...] EDIT: I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning. I love MaxPax and I think he is the strongest Protoss Player in like the past 1 - 1.5 years. But he only realy won a single tournament and unfortunatly he isn t playing at offline events. So he isn t even realy in this conversation, his reign as top Protoss was either to short or not dominant enough to put him in there. He score higher than the other Protoss players in most competitions he enters, but (maybe also thanks to balance) he most of the time does not win them. In terms of best Protoss of all time I d say 1. Zest 2. Stats 3-6. herO/ Trap/ Parting/ sOs 7. - 15 or so. Everyone else, because Protoss is to inconsistent to be consitently better than the rest | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18301 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: Zest's 2014 is also one of the best years of SC2 from anyone. And he's the best PvP player of all time. And has a longer run of winning titles (8 years) than any others. It can't really be anyone else. I was so hyped for that Zest vs Life series at blizzcon 2014, one of my favorite (nostalgia?) tournaments ever for some reason | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19364 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
On January 19 2024 12:41 Charoisaur wrote: This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen, a guy who has no premier tournament results and barely has a positive record against the only other S tier protoss player he has to go up against (49-44 vs herO, 15-15 in series) is supposed to be the greatest ever?? I'd rank even Neeb above him who won Kespa cup on the back of his PvP I was only talking about PvP so premier tournament wins are somewhat irrelevant. MaxPax also chooses not to attend in-person events, so his chances of winning a premier tournament are lessened. Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin. Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate. MaxPax's extensive use of the 1 Gate FE in PvP is revolutionary, and many top Protoss players have given up on trying to replicate his success, such is the difficulty of doing so. So I don't think my reasoning is as bad as you're trying to make out, even if we'll have to agree to disagree. On January 19 2024 17:12 dbRic1203 wrote: I love MaxPax and I think he is the strongest Protoss Player in like the past 1 - 1.5 years. But he only realy won a single tournament and unfortunatly he isn t playing at offline events. So he isn t even realy in this conversation, his reign as top Protoss was either to short or not dominant enough to put him in there. He score higher than the other Protoss players in most competitions he enters, but (maybe also thanks to balance) he most of the time does not win them. In terms of best Protoss of all time I d say 1. Zest 2. Stats 3-6. herO/ Trap/ Parting/ sOs 7. - 15 or so. Everyone else, because Protoss is to inconsistent to be consitently better than the rest I was only talking about PvP. I know that MaxPax isn't close to being the Protoss GOAT. Like I said on the previous page, I don't think there is a Protoss GOAT because the race has been inconsistently designed and is basically a series of gimmicks held together with other gimmicks. I have fun playing it, but it's not consistent enough for a player to dominate with, and so you can't have a GOAT. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16074 Posts
Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin. Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate. Both those stats are completely meaningless. Current highest aligulac rating will always be the highest ever because of inflation and overall winrate is massively influenced by how much statpadding vs weak opponents you're doing. His winrate against top Protoss players is much worse than Zest's | ||
Poopi
France12927 Posts
On January 19 2024 20:45 MJG wrote: I was only talking about PvP so premier tournament wins are somewhat irrelevant. MaxPax also chooses not to attend in-person events, so his chances of winning a premier tournament are lessened. Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin. Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate. MaxPax's extensive use of the 1 Gate FE in PvP is revolutionary, any many top Protoss players have given up on trying to replicate his success, such is the difficulty of doing so. So I don't think my reasoning is as bad as you're trying to make out, even if we'll have to agree to disagree. I was only talking about PvP. I know that MaxPax isn't close to being the Protoss GOAT. Like I said on the previous page, I don't think there is a Protoss GOAT because the race has been inconsistently designed and is basically a series of gimmicks held together with other gimmicks. I have fun playing it, but it's not consistent enough for a player to dominate with, and so you can't have a GOAT. He is mostly playing against lower tier players in ESL Open cups, each and every week. During the only important online tournaments he plays, such as DH:Europe, he even lost to ShoWTimE in PvP. Aligulac rating is a bit meaningless across eras because it keeps rising (inflation), and since there are less top players than before, it's even easier to grab points combined with inflation. Plus as long as he doesn't play offline, we can't really know how good his PvP is in the real high stakes tournament. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13998 Posts
On January 19 2024 15:29 kAra wrote: since playing protoss is about trashtalking and crushing dreams, i vote for mc Parting and sOs deserve nods over MC by these criteria | ||
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MrIronGolem27
United States251 Posts
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arcane1129
United States272 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26936 Posts
Guess it comes down to personal weighting preference how you sort any of Rain/$o$/Stats/Zest/herO/Classic, they’re all pretty even with different strengths and weaknesses. I’d throw Trap into the mix, also in an ‘underrated players’ list if we ever do one for insane consistency later in his career and basically carrying the race. Then MC I guess for being the Boss Toss, winning what he did and fleshing out how the race was played | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26936 Posts
On January 25 2024 00:35 MrIronGolem27 wrote: Makes me shudder at how many MaxPax votes there would be if his name were to be included... He’s a talent for sure but he must be the most overrated player in the whole scene. Absolutely not his fault at all but it gets ridiculous at times | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45991 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45991 Posts
On January 25 2024 00:35 MrIronGolem27 wrote: Makes me shudder at how many MaxPax votes there would be if his name were to be included... He's definitely not even top five, but he's still a very good player and some people will pick players they like, despite non-GoaT results. Maybe he's top ten? Top fifteen? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26936 Posts
On January 25 2024 10:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: He's definitely not even top five, but he's still a very good player and some people will pick players they like, despite non-GoaT results. Maybe he's top ten? Top fifteen? This isn’t skill wise necessarily, he’s got some chops but in terms of accomplishments I’d stick him below: Zest Stats Trap herO of the solid variety HerO of the liquid variety MC Rain Classic $o$ Dear Creator Neeb Naniwa Showtime This isn’t a diss but usually arguments revolve around how to weight different tournaments, star leagues versus weekenders, it’s preposterous to stick a guy who doesn’t play on certain stages anywhere near folks who’ve won in offline environments consistently. He’s very skilled and it sucks we don’t get to see him turn up, but he knows himself and I fully respect him prioritising himself. It’s not as if he’s been actually dominating online competition either. If he was stomping everyone in Europe a la peak Serral, and winning some online internationals here or there you’d maybe have a case to bump him up the list quite a bit. It’s only relatively recently I think you can make a case for Clem to be knocking on the door of a Terran top 10 and he’s a few steps ahead in his development, trading with Serral and Reynor in Europe for quite a while, had a decent WC run, won an international. And, although the Sad Zealot does rear its mournful visage quite frequently these days, if we’re talking top 10 racial GOATs Protoss is probably the most stacked. Terran consists of a few super Terrans who are miles ahead and a pretty big drop off to the next tier. Zerg similarly, plus some very good champions who maybe get unfairly unheralded due to playing in some of the game’s balance nadirs. | ||
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