So Mizenhauer has been writing a fantastic series so far. Therefore I apologize to him in advance.
However I felt like this question needed to be asked because the discussions for who is Terran GOAT and Zerg GOAT are largely unambiguous with at most 2-3 candidates per race, but Protoss GOAT is so contentious I see nearly 10 different candidates being fervently argued for.
Obviously a poll like this is not going to reflect the reasons people voted the way they did but I did want to put it out there and see how the dice land.
(I chose the options with the help of top 10 highest-earning Protoss players on Liquipedia, sorry Neeb/ShoWTimE who are not included here)
Personally Zest seems like the obvious choice to me. He absolutely dominated in early LotV (his series vs TY was one sided), he had several Katowice finals on top of great HotS results, he was the first and only player to stop Rogue invincibility streak in offline bo7… Plus he is handsome, so bonus points
Zest's 2014 is also one of the best years of SC2 from anyone. And he's the best PvP player of all time. And has a longer run of winning titles (8 years) than any others. It can't really be anyone else.
Zest for me, won tournaments for a long period across two expansions and multiple meta. The guy also knew how to craft a build like no other and had an understanding of the pressure points of Starcraft 2 we've rarely seen at the top.
The next batch of protoss is really hard to rank though.
On January 18 2024 10:46 luxon wrote: Rain and LiquidHero were my favorite players of all time, so I voted for Rain even though Zest is probably the answer. Him or pigbaby.
what? the best performing foreigner toss is easily Naniwa and it's not that close..
Naniwa has never won a tournament on Korean soil and he's never reached Top 4 in a GSL on his first try.
He's like won a single Premier tournament that had basically no Koreans in it in 2011. His competitive Premier finishes beating Koreans: 2nd - 2011 MLG Providence > Nestea, DRG Top 4 - 2013 MLG Spring > TheStC, Jaedong, Dear 2nd - 2013 Dreamhack Stockhom > Jaedong Top 4 - 2013 IEM New York > Hack, San, HyuN
Neeb: 1st - 2016 Kespa Cup > Rogue, Zest, Pet, Stats, Trap Top 4 - 2018 GSL S2 > aLive, Losira, Impact, Rogue Top 4 - 2019 GSL vs World > Stats Top 4 - 2020 Dreamhack Winter > Armani, TY
I'd say they're about even here, but this is not including a ton more non-Korean Premier events won by Neeb, who's been consistent over a longer period of time.
Edit: Also if you look at Bo3+ offline results vs Koreans on Aligulac, you'll see that Neeb's win rate (after he switched to protoss) is 45% in games and 42% in matches, while for Naniwa it's 44% in games and 43% in matches, so again about even. However, if you include both Koreans and non-Koreans for offline Bo3+, it's 62/70% for Neeb and 58/62% for Naniwa, while if you include both online/offline Bo3+ vs just Koreans it's 54/56% for Neeb and 46/44% for Naniwa, so again Neeb edges out Naniwa on both counts here.
On January 18 2024 10:46 luxon wrote: Rain and LiquidHero were my favorite players of all time, so I voted for Rain even though Zest is probably the answer. Him or pigbaby.
what? the best performing foreigner toss is easily Naniwa and it's not that close..
Naniwa over Neeb (by a lot)? Pigbaby in the discussion? Wtf?
Voted for Zest, though it is close between him, Rain and sOs. Since I value World Championships over GSL, sOs technically has by far the best score, but his general level seems so much lower than these "high points", while Zest usually was always up there.
Protoss has consistently been designed to be inconsistent. It's the race of gimmicks that get nerfed after someone uses them to make a deep tournament run, even though they'd probably get figured out within a month. So my opinion is that there isn't a Protoss GOAT because the race hasn't been designed in a way that allows someone to be consistently dominant whilst playing it.
EDIT:
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
Zest play Protoss the way its supposed to imo, lots of gimmick, trickery and timing build. His micro/macro wasnt the best among all Protoss, but he can win just on optimizing builds, until he ran out of them in the Finals. While I am not sure what he did could be done in the current patch, it was still very impressive to watch. Beating Cure in that GSL Final would have solidified his place imo, but he still had an edge despite losing it in the most “Zest” way.
On January 19 2024 02:11 swarminfestor wrote: Zest, followed by sOs.
Zest is best, sOs is greatest. The title of the thread says “Greatest” while the pool says “Best”, so I think the results are in quantum superposition of both. Very fitting for Protoss.
sOs is certainly the greatest hype killer of all time.
-Embarrassed caster-favourite Jaedong when everyone wanted it to be his crowning moment -2gated fan-favourite herO to ruin the $100K winner takes all match -Smashed MKP in his return and miracle finals run -Reverse swept KT in proleague after Flash went up 3-0, he really hates BW legends -Knocked Maru out of Blizzcon when everyone wanted Maru vs Serral so badly they rigged the bracket
Does anyone come close to ruining so many narratives ?
It has to be Zest but honorable mention to sOs who won 3 world championship-tier events within 3 years at the height of the Kespa era which just is one of the craziest achievements ever.
For reference, it has been over 8 years since his last victory (fuck, I'm getting old) and his record still hasn't been surpassed despite the competition getting a lot thinner.
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen, a guy who has no premier tournament results and barely has a positive record against the only other S tier protoss player he has to go up against (49-44 vs herO, 15-15 in series) is supposed to be the greatest ever?? I'd rank even Neeb above him who won Kespa cup on the back of his PvP
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
I love MaxPax and I think he is the strongest Protoss Player in like the past 1 - 1.5 years. But he only realy won a single tournament and unfortunatly he isn t playing at offline events. So he isn t even realy in this conversation, his reign as top Protoss was either to short or not dominant enough to put him in there. He score higher than the other Protoss players in most competitions he enters, but (maybe also thanks to balance) he most of the time does not win them.
In terms of best Protoss of all time I d say 1. Zest 2. Stats 3-6. herO/ Trap/ Parting/ sOs 7. - 15 or so. Everyone else, because Protoss is to inconsistent to be consitently better than the rest
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: Zest's 2014 is also one of the best years of SC2 from anyone. And he's the best PvP player of all time. And has a longer run of winning titles (8 years) than any others. It can't really be anyone else.
I was so hyped for that Zest vs Life series at blizzcon 2014, one of my favorite (nostalgia?) tournaments ever for some reason
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen, a guy who has no premier tournament results and barely has a positive record against the only other S tier protoss player he has to go up against (49-44 vs herO, 15-15 in series) is supposed to be the greatest ever?? I'd rank even Neeb above him who won Kespa cup on the back of his PvP
I was only talking about PvP so premier tournament wins are somewhat irrelevant. MaxPax also chooses not to attend in-person events, so his chances of winning a premier tournament are lessened.
Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin.
Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate.
MaxPax's extensive use of the 1 Gate FE in PvP is revolutionary, and many top Protoss players have given up on trying to replicate his success, such is the difficulty of doing so.
So I don't think my reasoning is as bad as you're trying to make out, even if we'll have to agree to disagree.
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
I love MaxPax and I think he is the strongest Protoss Player in like the past 1 - 1.5 years. But he only realy won a single tournament and unfortunatly he isn t playing at offline events. So he isn t even realy in this conversation, his reign as top Protoss was either to short or not dominant enough to put him in there. He score higher than the other Protoss players in most competitions he enters, but (maybe also thanks to balance) he most of the time does not win them.
In terms of best Protoss of all time I d say 1. Zest 2. Stats 3-6. herO/ Trap/ Parting/ sOs 7. - 15 or so. Everyone else, because Protoss is to inconsistent to be consitently better than the rest
I was only talking about PvP. I know that MaxPax isn't close to being the Protoss GOAT.
Like I said on the previous page, I don't think there is a Protoss GOAT because the race has been inconsistently designed and is basically a series of gimmicks held together with other gimmicks. I have fun playing it, but it's not consistent enough for a player to dominate with, and so you can't have a GOAT.
Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin.
Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate.
Both those stats are completely meaningless. Current highest aligulac rating will always be the highest ever because of inflation and overall winrate is massively influenced by how much statpadding vs weak opponents you're doing. His winrate against top Protoss players is much worse than Zest's
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
This has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen, a guy who has no premier tournament results and barely has a positive record against the only other S tier protoss player he has to go up against (49-44 vs herO, 15-15 in series) is supposed to be the greatest ever?? I'd rank even Neeb above him who won Kespa cup on the back of his PvP
I was only talking about PvP so premier tournament wins are somewhat irrelevant. MaxPax also chooses not to attend in-person events, so his chances of winning a premier tournament are lessened.
Aligulac tells me that MaxPax has the highest ever PvP rating by a decent margin.
Liquipedia tells me that MaxPax has an 89.5% winrate in PvP series since April last year, whereas herO has an 81% winrate.
MaxPax's extensive use of the 1 Gate FE in PvP is revolutionary, any many top Protoss players have given up on trying to replicate his success, such is the difficulty of doing so.
So I don't think my reasoning is as bad as you're trying to make out, even if we'll have to agree to disagree.
On January 18 2024 10:10 Fango wrote: And he's the best PvP player of all time.
I think that what MaxPax has been doing over the past year in PvP puts him at the top of that list. It's ridiculous that he's consistently beating people with a fast expand opening that everyone knows he's going to do, and that many other Protoss players seem to have given up on learning.
I love MaxPax and I think he is the strongest Protoss Player in like the past 1 - 1.5 years. But he only realy won a single tournament and unfortunatly he isn t playing at offline events. So he isn t even realy in this conversation, his reign as top Protoss was either to short or not dominant enough to put him in there. He score higher than the other Protoss players in most competitions he enters, but (maybe also thanks to balance) he most of the time does not win them.
In terms of best Protoss of all time I d say 1. Zest 2. Stats 3-6. herO/ Trap/ Parting/ sOs 7. - 15 or so. Everyone else, because Protoss is to inconsistent to be consitently better than the rest
I was only talking about PvP. I know that MaxPax isn't close to being the Protoss GOAT.
Like I said on the previous page, I don't think there is a Protoss GOAT because the race has been inconsistently designed and is basically a series of gimmicks held together with other gimmicks. I have fun playing it, but it's not consistent enough for a player to dominate with, and so you can't have a GOAT.
He is mostly playing against lower tier players in ESL Open cups, each and every week. During the only important online tournaments he plays, such as DH:Europe, he even lost to ShoWTimE in PvP. Aligulac rating is a bit meaningless across eras because it keeps rising (inflation), and since there are less top players than before, it's even easier to grab points combined with inflation.
Plus as long as he doesn't play offline, we can't really know how good his PvP is in the real high stakes tournament.
From personal sensibilities I think peak Rain and Stats passed the eye test a bit better in terms of skill set, but results wise it’s super hard to go against Zest. I think my brief hiatus from all things SC2 coincided with quite a lot of his best form too so maybe underrate his absolute skill level.
Guess it comes down to personal weighting preference how you sort any of Rain/$o$/Stats/Zest/herO/Classic, they’re all pretty even with different strengths and weaknesses.
I’d throw Trap into the mix, also in an ‘underrated players’ list if we ever do one for insane consistency later in his career and basically carrying the race.
Then MC I guess for being the Boss Toss, winning what he did and fleshing out how the race was played
On January 25 2024 00:35 MrIronGolem27 wrote: Makes me shudder at how many MaxPax votes there would be if his name were to be included...
He's definitely not even top five, but he's still a very good player and some people will pick players they like, despite non-GoaT results.
Maybe he's top ten? Top fifteen?
This isn’t skill wise necessarily, he’s got some chops but in terms of accomplishments I’d stick him below: Zest Stats Trap herO of the solid variety HerO of the liquid variety MC Rain Classic $o$ Dear Creator Neeb Naniwa Showtime
This isn’t a diss but usually arguments revolve around how to weight different tournaments, star leagues versus weekenders, it’s preposterous to stick a guy who doesn’t play on certain stages anywhere near folks who’ve won in offline environments consistently.
He’s very skilled and it sucks we don’t get to see him turn up, but he knows himself and I fully respect him prioritising himself.
It’s not as if he’s been actually dominating online competition either. If he was stomping everyone in Europe a la peak Serral, and winning some online internationals here or there you’d maybe have a case to bump him up the list quite a bit.
It’s only relatively recently I think you can make a case for Clem to be knocking on the door of a Terran top 10 and he’s a few steps ahead in his development, trading with Serral and Reynor in Europe for quite a while, had a decent WC run, won an international.
And, although the Sad Zealot does rear its mournful visage quite frequently these days, if we’re talking top 10 racial GOATs Protoss is probably the most stacked. Terran consists of a few super Terrans who are miles ahead and a pretty big drop off to the next tier. Zerg similarly, plus some very good champions who maybe get unfairly unheralded due to playing in some of the game’s balance nadirs.
EPT
