EPTToday I have a piece I filmed for you all with none other than the SC2Improve founder, streamer, and Caster extraordinaire, Wardi. Wardi and I had a lengthy, but fascinating conversation, ranging from his start in SC2, to hosting massive events, his love for Pokemon, and more! I hope you all enjoy this one, Jon was a pleasure to chat with.
Wardi "GSL Has Been Mismanaged Under Afreeca"
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
StarcraftHistorian
United States132 Posts
Today I have a piece I filmed for you all with none other than the SC2Improve founder, streamer, and Caster extraordinaire, Wardi. Wardi and I had a lengthy, but fascinating conversation, ranging from his start in SC2, to hosting massive events, his love for Pokemon, and more! I hope you all enjoy this one, Jon was a pleasure to chat with. | ||
|
PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
 Much love Wardi and thanks for your work, quite interesting. | ||
afreecaTV.Char
United States337 Posts
| ||
|
iRkSupperman
Norway130 Posts
Atleast the English language broadcast did its best to try and hide this fact for a long time, GJ on that. | ||
|
Haighstrom
United Kingdom196 Posts
| ||
|
StarcraftHistorian
United States132 Posts
On December 14 2023 05:45 afreecaTV.Char wrote: I really appreciated the Tasteless interview, because at least he added the comment that the community underestimates the costs. The community severely underestimates the costs and simply doesn't see all of the things that must be considered or go into it. It's not a simple "just sell merch and get a foreign sponsor lmao." So glad to see you’re familiar with my work! First off, obviously I’m going for the popcorn headline in some respects, and both Wardi and I are aware it’s a complex and nuanced situation. I’m so glad to have this conversation with someone with a deeper understanding of the GSL’s position. That being said, Afreeca has been in ownership of the GSL for around 8 years. The Patreon campaign is basically the first time money has been generated from the foreign audience during that time. Merch isn’t some cure all, but 8 years of merch sales would represent a lot of capital. Not enough to cover the huge costs of the production I’m sure, but a lot. The GSL VODs generate tons of views with the foreign audience, is there a reason we can’t see sponsorships from foreign orgs on those videos? Is there a reason we can’t see foreign sponsors for the GSL on the whole? Would advertisers that are in foreign markets not pay more for the larger segment of your audience than Korean orgs pay for the tiny domestic viewership? Beyond that, think about the type of revenue that crowdfunding would have generated back in 2015 when the GSL viewership was much larger. Would the hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars that would have been generated over the years not have made a difference? Seems unlikely to me. All in all, it seems to me that a combination of these potential revenue sources would have had a big impact on the bottom line of the show. By all means explain how and why I’m misguided in these opinions, happy to learn! Cheers | ||
|
Blargh
United States2101 Posts
Starcraft is really leagues off from LoL viewership (pun unintended), and even LoL is probably a net negative for most of these live productions. | ||
|
Ronski
Finland266 Posts
On December 14 2023 06:54 Blargh wrote: I'm not really convinced that merch or the patreon contribute anything meaningful. It'll always be hard to overcome the fact that there just isn't the same kind of interest there used to be. Look at Afreeca's BW events, they do much better than the SC2 ones, but they're all still relatively barebones events and I really doubt there's much meaningful revenues coming from the live events. Afreeca probably makes way more from their BW star streamers than the sum of all live events. Starcraft is really leagues off from LoL viewership (pun unintended), and even LoL is probably a net negative for most of these live productions. I think this is because of the Korean domestic market. BW is more popular in Korea but not more popular as a whole. If Afreeca runs both games in a similar manner and marketing mostly for the Korean domestic audience then SC2 will get less viewership. SC2 should be marketed more towards the foreign audience. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
MLG is done, NASL is done, GOMTV is done, SPOTV is done, OGaming is done, Take is only hanging on by pouring his own money in HSC. IEM and Dreamhack only manage 2 offline event a year and haven't done in studio regional tournament in almost half a decade. And that's not counting the dozen of tournament series that has gone under or abandonned SC2 (AsusRog, cheesadelphia, MSI, WESG, etc..) Having a GSL in 2023 is a god damn miracle. You can always do better I guess, but I'd be weary of calling it "mismanaged". | ||
|
tigera6
3223 Posts
So basically, Afreeca fault is that they didnt foresee how Blizzard would drop GSL support and react actively for it. And I dont even know how they plan for 2024 with the ESL season being extended for about 6-8 monhts. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24427 Posts
On December 14 2023 06:14 StarcraftHistorian wrote: So glad to see you’re familiar with my work! First off, obviously I’m going for the popcorn headline in some respects, and both Wardi and I are aware it’s a complex and nuanced situation. I’m so glad to have this conversation with someone with a deeper understanding of the GSL’s position. That being said, Afreeca has been in ownership of the GSL for around 8 years. The Patreon campaign is basically the first time money has been generated from the foreign audience during that time. Merch isn’t some cure all, but 8 years of merch sales would represent a lot of capital. Not enough to cover the huge costs of the production I’m sure, but a lot. The GSL VODs generate tons of views with the foreign audience, is there a reason we can’t see sponsorships from foreign orgs on those videos? Is there a reason we can’t see foreign sponsors for the GSL on the whole? Would advertisers that are in foreign markets not pay more for the larger segment of your audience than Korean orgs pay for the tiny domestic viewership? Beyond that, think about the type of revenue that crowdfunding would have generated back in 2015 when the GSL viewership was much larger. Would the hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars that would have been generated over the years not have made a difference? Seems unlikely to me. All in all, it seems to me that a combination of these potential revenue sources would have had a big impact on the bottom line of the show. By all means explain how and why I’m misguided in these opinions, happy to learn! Cheers Love your interviews, haven’t actually seen this particular one yet but figured I’d give my thoughts on just the headline, much as I bemoan the practice :p I think merch plus the demographic maybe not, but certainly Afreeca could have pushed more for foreign sponsorships given that was their main audience. Although I imagine you maybe get some headaches via conflicts with their existing sponsors. Likewise team merch, which I imagine would be the main items of interest, I mean how much would Afreeca itself benefit from lines of merchandise when they’d effectively be selling merch that different team orgs have the rights to? I can only speak for myself but I own one piece of esports merch, an older TL tee from back in the day. Maybe I’m just too old and cantankerous, although I don’t think age wise I’m an outlier on these forums, but most esports merch is super gaudy, clothing is way too flashy, peripherals have RGB out the arse and so I generally steer clear of it. I think the Patreon was successful primarily because people are paying to keep top level Korean StarCraft, basically. If I hear some old bar I enjoyed as a wayward teen is potentially going out of business I’ll go down and have a few beers for old times, help clear some debts. If it’s doing fine I stick with my current haunts. I’m not sure the pull is the same for a GSL that was propped up by Blizz money and sitting pretty. I think Afreeca could have brought in some additional revenue with a Patreon that offered replays and whatnot years back, but I’m not sure how big that pie looks. Personally would have given decent money for first person streams, 2x those plus caster audio is IMO the best possible way to watch SC2. But then again, basically nobody has run tournaments with that setup being possible. One only has to look at what a clusterfuck it was to get Tastosis doing a delayed cast on ASL, I imagine perhaps this is a small insight into potential problems you’d have with a streaming platform with a primarily Korean domestic audience trying to expand commercially to a Western audience that doesn’t use that platform. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
The blame is probably more on blizzard than other orgs | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On December 14 2023 08:01 Ronski wrote: I think this is because of the Korean domestic market. BW is more popular in Korea but not more popular as a whole. If Afreeca runs both games in a similar manner and marketing mostly for the Korean domestic audience then SC2 will get less viewership. SC2 should be marketed more towards the foreign audience. Overall viewership for BW far eclipses SC2's. We had 250k peak viewership for BW last year alone. SC2 can never touch this no matter what. | ||
|
StasisField
United States1086 Posts
| ||
|
tedster
984 Posts
| ||
|
NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
| ||
|
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On December 14 2023 23:27 Poopi wrote: I kinda disagree with this take, GSL running this long despite a very low KR viewership (and low foreign viewership) / sc2 declining is almost a miracle. The blame is probably more on blizzard than other orgs i agree too! Blizzard should've comprised with the really smart Korean companies that were running Brood War esports in a great way up until 2009. I think when Activision took over that Vivendi leadership promised ATVI the sun the moon and the stars regarding esports. So then Activision tried to "cash in" when Sc2 had its own servers. Giant orgs fighting over big money and the fans these orgs claim they love so much got shafted. On December 14 2023 05:45 afreecaTV.Char wrote: I really appreciated the Tasteless interview, because at least he added the comment that the community underestimates the costs. The community severely underestimates the costs and simply doesn't see all of the things that must be considered or go into it. It's not a simple "just sell merch and get a foreign sponsor lmao." I think the GSL has been amazing under AfreecaTV. It has been great entertainment. Unfortunately, many on here think everything costs nothing and every aspect of their SC2 experience must be perfectly custom fit to their own personal needs. Over the years, the GSL has offered a great entertainment option for me and my friends. | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1106 Posts
On December 15 2023 08:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i agree too! Blizzard should've comprised with the really smart Korean companies that were running Brood War esports in a great way up until 2009. Which companies did run BW in an "amazing way"? Don't get me wrong, korean BW was impressive and by far the most advanced system we got in Esports until then, but it also was completly condensed into one country and one scene. Globally, WC3 was far bigger than BW just by the virtue that there actually was a competitive scene outside of Korea. And WC3 was basically run by ESL and a lot of mostly money-burning companies (e.g. ESWC). I seriouly doubt that SC2 would have the success it had if it was run like BW. If anything, there is a chance that Proleague might even have hurt the growth of SC2. Would have been a different story if Proleague was an actual global league, with a system that actually promoted global competition. On December 15 2023 01:40 Shinokuki wrote: Overall viewership for BW far eclipses SC2's. We had 250k peak viewership for BW last year alone. SC2 can never touch this no matter what. Are you confusing peak and overall viewership? Because the only data I can find is that BW has an all-time peak with ~70K, while SC2 more than doubles that with 176K | ||
|
Sd13
Vietnam185 Posts
ASL11 finals total afreeca viewer total + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/qxfcanj) ASL16 final viewer count + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/fUz3wsO) StarCraft: Remastered viewer metrics October 2023 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/CIkWIZc) | ||
|
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On December 15 2023 11:33 Balnazza wrote: Which companies did run BW in an "amazing way"? Don't get me wrong, korean BW was impressive and by far the most advanced system we got in Esports until then, but it also was completly condensed into one country and one scene. Globally, WC3 was far bigger than BW just by the virtue that there actually was a competitive scene outside of Korea. And WC3 was basically run by ESL and a lot of mostly money-burning companies (e.g. ESWC). "far bigger" by what measure? WC3 is not far bigger by prize money. WC3 live gate and event attendance was not "far bigger" than BW live gate and attendance. WC3 live events were not far better than Brood War live events. ESL "far bigger" production values? nah. The companies promoting BW esports were domestic Korean companies like TV stations, airlines, and cell phone vendors. Thus, a KOrean tv station or cell phone company is not going to promote Brood War in .. say ... Argentina or Quebec. THis is like complaining that Tim Horton's and TSN do a weak job promoting The Brier CUrling championship because they're only promoting it in Canada. What about the Curling fans in Madagascar? | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1106 Posts
On December 15 2023 22:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "far bigger" by what measure? WC3 is not far bigger by prize money. WC3 live gate and event attendance was not "far bigger" than BW live gate and attendance. WC3 live events were not far better than Brood War live events. ESL "far bigger" production values? nah. The companies promoting BW esports were domestic Korean companies like TV stations, airlines, and cell phone vendors. Thus, a KOrean tv station or cell phone company is not going to promote Brood War in .. say ... Argentina or Quebec. THis is like complaining that Tim Horton's and TSN do a weak job promoting The Brier CUrling championship because they're only promoting it in Canada. What about the Curling fans in Madagascar? But that is exactly the issue? It was professionally organized (though terrible for the players), but it was completly localised aswell. And that is exactly what Blizzard didn't want and what WC3 did far better. WC3 was a global phenomenon, while BW was mostly Korea-only. Sure, WC3 being a global phenomenom may be linked to the collaps of the korean scene early on (MBC map scandal), but it nevertheless was. And yes, that came at the cost of it being far less professionally managed, with a more scattered tournament scene and two leagues that weren't as organized as Proleague. But it still catched attention and traction globally. And in that line, produced global stars. Early on, there was actually a fair competition between Europe, NA and Korea (later on China aswell). WC3 didn't have to wait eight years for a foreign-messiah to show up, we got that delivered from the get-go. The idea for SC2 was clearly to have both, professionalism and global traction. The latter half worked somewhat out atleast. Of course, in the end, Riot did it better and is still unmatched, but that was the general idea. Or to make it simple and take your example: The reason why I don't care for Curling or Cricket may be the fact that it isn't even remotely promoted in my country. As a European, I don't get particularly excited about a match between India and Pakistan. | ||
|
ScrappyRabbit
200 Posts
| ||
|
NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On December 16 2023 00:34 ScrappyRabbit wrote: Yeah man I teach at an English academy in South Korea and absolutely none of the kids (middle school, which should almost be the target audience) care about SC2 at all. A few of them know Brood War because their dads play it. A ton of them know about League -- the boys were abuzz when SKT and Faker won Worlds a few weeks back. (Also, Hagwon life -- I teach until 10 PM every Tuesday and Thursday, which means I haven't been able to make it to the SC2 studio yet.) This thread has a lot of people comparing apples to oranges. SC2 sold 6 mill, maybe more, overexpanded and is a tiny esport. LOL at one point had almost 200mill people signing on monthly, that doesn't everyone, but makes the point. SC2 is a tiny playerbase and beyond that the amount of people who watch is far less. There are other reasons for the shrinking of the SC2 scene as well, but it was largely overinflated to begin with. They're simple not comparable. | ||
|
Wardi
England896 Posts
And perhaps there are reasons why that didn’t happen sooner which we don’t know, but from our view there were many years of a strong & loyal fanbase (with an extremely marketable demographic) that would have supported a lot over the years. My initial point on all of this is that I know sponsors that would pay a lot to get in front of an audience like that and who would love to create a very strong connection to a fanbase like that in SC2, and while that may not pay for everything it could have brought in a lot more money over the years than the patreon currently is and if nothing else could have been an extra hand to hold the GSL up. Not a lot of people make money from esports, but a lot of the time its about reducing the amount of money you are losing. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On December 15 2023 11:33 Balnazza wrote: Which companies did run BW in an "amazing way"? Don't get me wrong, korean BW was impressive and by far the most advanced system we got in Esports until then, but it also was completly condensed into one country and one scene. Globally, WC3 was far bigger than BW just by the virtue that there actually was a competitive scene outside of Korea. And WC3 was basically run by ESL and a lot of mostly money-burning companies (e.g. ESWC). I seriouly doubt that SC2 would have the success it had if it was run like BW. If anything, there is a chance that Proleague might even have hurt the growth of SC2. Would have been a different story if Proleague was an actual global league, with a system that actually promoted global competition. Are you confusing peak and overall viewership? Because the only data I can find is that BW has an all-time peak with ~70K, while SC2 more than doubles that with 176K We never know what peak viewrship was for bw and I'm assumign this was in millions when it was broadcasted live on TV. Look at the post below you too, BW had many runs of 200k+ viewership, something sc2 never touched or will never touch. It's just simple | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24427 Posts
On December 18 2023 01:17 Shinokuki wrote: We never know what peak viewrship was for bw and I'm assumign this was in millions when it was broadcasted live on TV. Look at the post below you too, BW had many runs of 200k+ viewership, something sc2 never touched or will never touch. It's just simple I still think BW was bigger overall but didn’t SC2 get numbers in that ballpark for early Blizzcons? Might be totally wrong on that mind! | ||
|
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
GSL however, I don't think it ever reached those numbers. Maybe when they held the GSL at Blizzcon. sc2 was way bigger than BW internationally. In fact, compared to LoL for example if you compare viewership numbers to number of players, sc2 had a way higher percentage of players that watched the games. I remember when LoL had like 400k viewers, but 10 times the playerbase. I attribute that to the average sc2 fan being more "hardcore" and also sc2 being a great spectator sport, as dustin browder mentioned that a big focus during development, was not only making it fun to play but fun to watch and easy to understand, and IMO they succedded. The issue is sc2 never had a super big playerbase (it had, but not compared to mobas). And also had an "outdated" business model when f2p games started to get traction. Hopefully stormgates and others follow that example, although from what I've seen...they arent. | ||
|
Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
GSL however, I don't think it ever reached those numbers. During the peak of popularity, GSL was a badly encoded 240p video locked to a third party media player at 4 in the morning. You couldn't see how many marines were in an army blob, read the resources or watch a VOD without paying. No surprise that it didn't get the hundreds of thousands that e.g. justin/twitch tournaments did (and yes, they did hit 100-200k routinely for a while). | ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On December 18 2023 14:11 Cyro wrote: During the peak of popularity, GSL was a badly encoded 240p video locked to a third party media player at 4 in the morning. You couldn't see how many marines were in an army blob, read the resources or watch a VOD without paying. No surprise that it didn't get the hundreds of thousands that e.g. justin/twitch tournaments did (and yes, they did hit 100-200k routinely for a while). and those were the best times goddamit | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24427 Posts
Hell I still watch in 240p til this day | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24427 Posts
On December 18 2023 14:11 Cyro wrote: During the peak of popularity, GSL was a badly encoded 240p video locked to a third party media player at 4 in the morning. You couldn't see how many marines were in an army blob, read the resources or watch a VOD without paying. No surprise that it didn't get the hundreds of thousands that e.g. justin/twitch tournaments did (and yes, they did hit 100-200k routinely for a while). Yeah, hey a lot of stuff can be learned in retrospect. Ultimately at the time it was probably a rather difficult one to navigate ultimately. SC2, certainly as an eSport was bigger than BW in much of the world, but it never supplanted BW in Korea. Many of the sponsors, be it for the GSL itself, or the teams involved are products and companies that don’t do much business outside of Korea. Then as Afreeca step up their involvement, well they’re doing the vast majority of their business in Korea, they’re not pulling much traffic from Westerners and they’re a competitor with the main platforms most of us watch on. Looking back yeah you can point to things that could have been done better to monetise the GSL’s predominately foreign audience but I do think some of the complexities are a bit overlooked too. | ||
| ||
